Charlie Hebdo Paris shooting: 12 dead after gunmen storm newspaper's HQ
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Mickey, I agree that may be more prudent but I also respect the refusal to back down. The true bullies are the ones with guns, not the ones with pens and pencils.
Brian, you are absolutely right. An ugly and infuckingsane cycle with no end in sight.___________________________________________
"...I changed by not changing at all..."0 -
I read through the link provided by pjfanwill and, unfortunately, spiraled from there.
Islamic state militants throwing gays from the top of a building as large crowds gather to watch the 'application of the law': https://news.vice.com/article/gruesome-photos-allegedly-show-islamic-state-throwing-gay-men-off-a-tall-building
Don't click on the link if you don't care to see awful things (including a woman stoned).
The 'bullies' don't just target cartoonists in the interest of their religion.
Exactly what is the ultimate goal of the extremists? And is there a large pool of extremists that these forces draw from to pursue this goal, or do they recruit extremists from the moderate faction? In other words, is this spike in radical behavior the start of a new way of life that has the chance to even intensify, or a blemish soon to be a topic of historical study?
What would it take for peace? Given such intolerance, is peace even a remote possibility?"My brain's a good brain!"0 -
Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote: »I read through the link provided by pjfanwill and, unfortunately, spiraled from there.
Islamic state militants throwing gays from the top of a building as large crowds gather to watch the 'application of the law': https://news.vice.com/article/gruesome-photos-allegedly-show-islamic-state-throwing-gay-men-off-a-tall-building
Don't click on the link if you don't care to see awful things (including a woman stoned).
The 'bullies' don't just target cartoonists in the interest of their religion.
Exactly what is the ultimate goal of the extremists? And is there a large pool of extremists that these forces draw from to pursue this goal, or do they recruit extremists from the moderate faction? In other words, is this spike in radical behavior the start of a new way of life that has the chance to even intensify, or a blemish soon to be a topic of historical study?
Good questions, Thirty Bills, and I would add to them: What roll does the media play in both our perceptions and in spreading or dissipating this seeming rise in extremism?
I sometimes wonder if media exposure (world-wide) does more to fuel that behavior than it does to decrease it. Maybe my pessimism is a a reflection of looking at those images in the link.Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote: »What would it take for peace? Given such intolerance, is peace even a remote possibility?
I've often stated in these forums my belief and hope for peace (and have been harshly criticized for doing so). I still champion the idea of peace but when I read the news lately and look at the photographs in that link I feel that hope fade to a very, very dim little spark. When I think that way, I feel pathetic.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
I just can't click on the link, Thirty - but the description...my god.
Speaking out loud here, but my thought on peace, at the moment, is this.
I think many, most of us around the world are decent overall. Compassionate, humane, whole-hearted. Try to make a difference in sometimes huge but usually small ways. Still valuable, to me.
Then there are the fucked up factions who have the means to have their voice reverbrated in much larger ways - more violent, more people murdered or affected, more nonsensical loss.
And for what?0 -
I just can't click on the link, Thirty - but the description...my god.
Speaking out loud here, but my thought on peace, at the moment, is this.
I think many, most of us around the world are decent overall. Compassionate, humane, whole-hearted. Try to make a difference in sometimes huge but usually small ways. Still valuable, to me.
Then there are the fucked up factions who have the means to have their voice reverbrated in much larger ways - more violent, more people murdered or affected, more nonsensical loss.
And for what?
I'm going to let that (highlighted) thought sink into my brain today, Hedo. Nice!
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
Brian you talk about the effect of media exposure and its impact on fueling the fire.Just today I was watching an interesting story on CNN(Farkeed Zakaria) discussing the past of one of the Paris shooters.His "extremist" views were brought on by watching news of American bombings in Iraq.So clearly it does have some impact in creating images that help form these vengeance filled actions.The story then took an interesting angle.They studied the Rise and fall of the recruitment of Islamic terrorists,in predominant Muslim countries since 1980.Contrasting Western Actions in these areas and its direct impact on the recruitment of groups like AQ,IS,EtcThirty Bills Unpaid wrote: »I read through the link provided by pjfanwill and, unfortunately, spiraled from there.
Islamic state militants throwing gays from the top of a building as large crowds gather to watch the 'application of the law': https://news.vice.com/article/gruesome-photos-allegedly-show-islamic-state-throwing-gay-men-off-a-tall-building
Don't click on the link if you don't care to see awful things (including a woman stoned).
The 'bullies' don't just target cartoonists in the interest of their religion.
Exactly what is the ultimate goal of the extremists? And is there a large pool of extremists that these forces draw from to pursue this goal, or do they recruit extremists from the moderate faction? In other words, is this spike in radical behavior the start of a new way of life that has the chance to even intensify, or a blemish soon to be a topic of historical study?
Good questions, Thirty Bills, and I would add to them: What roll does the media play in both our perceptions and in spreading or dissipating this seeming rise in extremism?
I sometimes wonder if media exposure (world-wide) does more to fuel that behavior than it does to decrease it. Maybe my pessimism is a a reflection of looking at those images in the link.Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote: »What would it take for peace? Given such intolerance, is peace even a remote possibility?
I've often stated in these forums my belief and hope for peace (and have been harshly criticized for doing so). I still champion the idea of peace but when I read the news lately and look at the photographs in that link I feel that hope fade to a very, very dim little spark. When I think that way, I feel pathetic.
What they found does not mesh with what some on this site like to reference as the root cause of all this extremist terrorist activity and that's the USA/West involvement in those regions.Yes,It did have a direct result in quite a few of these countries and conflicts but in some of the biggest surges in recruitment documented it was the US lack of involvement that caused the increase.Bosnia was a great example.A huge surge in was noted when we didn't hang around.Other regions also noticed the same thing.So it would seem we are blamed for too much involvement and also blamed for not enough.
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And Jimmy I'm with your thought process here.Although speech may be tasteless and offensive,you can't pick and choose what is offensive and to who.So those freedoms of expression,thought and speech must never be bottled up at the risk of offending someone at some time.
The threat of Death and violence should never halt these freedoms regardless of the content.There is NEVER a reason words should justify death.0 -
I just can't click on the link, Thirty - but the description...my god.
Speaking out loud here, but my thought on peace, at the moment, is this.
I think many, most of us around the world are decent overall. Compassionate, humane, whole-hearted. Try to make a difference in sometimes huge but usually small ways. Still valuable, to me.
Then there are the fucked up factions who have the means to have their voice reverbrated in much larger ways - more violent, more people murdered or affected, more nonsensical loss.
And for what?
I'm going to let that (highlighted) thought sink into my brain today, Hedo. Nice!
By doing that you made Hedos point,as she has now in a small way made a difference in someone's thinking.0 -
And Jimmy I'm with your thought process here.Although speech may be tasteless and offensive,you can't pick and choose what is offensive and to who.So those freedoms of expression,thought and speech must never be bottled up at the risk of offending someone at some time.
The threat of Death and violence should never halt these freedoms regardless of the content.There is NEVER a reason words should justify death.
At the risk of starting a circular argument (why did that even enter my mind to type that first?) I agree about words not justifying death but on the other hand RR, what if from now on everyday I call you a dick publicly on this forum? I don't even know you but it should be in my right mind to not do this to you. Because I can though, I will. (not really, just making a point)0 -
Brian you talk about the effect of media exposure and its impact on fueling the fire.Just today I was watching an interesting story on CNN(Farkeed Zakaria) discussing the past of one of the Paris shooters.His "extremist" views were brought on by watching news of American bombings in Iraq.So clearly it does have some impact in creating images that help form these vengeance filled actions.The story then took an interesting angle.They studied the Rise and fall of the recruitment of Islamic terrorists,in predominant Muslim countries since 1980.Contrasting Western Actions in these areas and its direct impact on the recruitment of groups like AQ,IS,EtcThirty Bills Unpaid wrote: »I read through the link provided by pjfanwill and, unfortunately, spiraled from there.
Islamic state militants throwing gays from the top of a building as large crowds gather to watch the 'application of the law': https://news.vice.com/article/gruesome-photos-allegedly-show-islamic-state-throwing-gay-men-off-a-tall-building
Don't click on the link if you don't care to see awful things (including a woman stoned).
The 'bullies' don't just target cartoonists in the interest of their religion.
Exactly what is the ultimate goal of the extremists? And is there a large pool of extremists that these forces draw from to pursue this goal, or do they recruit extremists from the moderate faction? In other words, is this spike in radical behavior the start of a new way of life that has the chance to even intensify, or a blemish soon to be a topic of historical study?
Good questions, Thirty Bills, and I would add to them: What roll does the media play in both our perceptions and in spreading or dissipating this seeming rise in extremism?
I sometimes wonder if media exposure (world-wide) does more to fuel that behavior than it does to decrease it. Maybe my pessimism is a a reflection of looking at those images in the link.Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote: »What would it take for peace? Given such intolerance, is peace even a remote possibility?
I've often stated in these forums my belief and hope for peace (and have been harshly criticized for doing so). I still champion the idea of peace but when I read the news lately and look at the photographs in that link I feel that hope fade to a very, very dim little spark. When I think that way, I feel pathetic.
What they found does not mesh with what some on this site like to reference as the root cause of all this extremist terrorist activity and that's the USA/West involvement in those regions.Yes,It did have a direct result in quite a few of these countries and conflicts but in some of the biggest surges in recruitment documented it was the US lack of involvement that caused the increase.Bosnia was a great example.A huge surge in was noted when we didn't hang around.Other regions also noticed the same thing.So it would seem we are blamed for too much involvement and also blamed for not enough.
I think it depends all on the angle the journalist has on this issue. I believe that no one has a neutral point of view about this issue, So there will be no neutral journalism about it. Every angle has it's own courses of information, and background coverage. But because there is no objective journalism, all forms of journalism in one way or the other, is a kind of propaganda for a particular world view.
So yes, Journalism is fuel on the fire...Post edited by Aafke on
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee0 -
paulonious wrote: »I disagree with the assertation that criticizing the cartoon is akin to blaming the rape victim for her clothes, as Bill Maher and some in this thread have suggested. I find that to be lazy. Openly and assertively trying to offend and piss off people for their beliefs isn't even in the same universe as wanting to wear a short skirt when going out to a club. Come on.
These are extremists, not true muslims. Just like the westboro baptist church are extremists, not your average christian.
Come on is right, you keep trying to compare this attack with school yard bullying. Not even close to the same thing, we are all adults.....why can't we start acting like adults. Kids get offended by stupid shit, adults don't.
I wasn't comparing the attack to bullying. The irresponsible "journalism". adults don't get offended by "stupid" shit? You call what they published "stupid". Have some respect for others' beliefs. I think religion is all bullshit, but I don't go around drawing cartoons of jesus getting anally raped by a Televangelist. And damn right people iver here would get offended by that. And well within their rights. (And save your comeback of "difference is, over here no one would murder the cartoonists", because, obviously, that isn't the point I am making here).
that shit is drawn by people with the maturity of a teenage boy.
Nothing ecxuses murder. Ever. I wish i didn't have to keep saying that, but some people just can't fathom that I can be against what they printed but outraged at the consequence they suffered as a result at the same time.
Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall0 -
Pjfan:
At the risk of starting a circular argument (why did that even enter my mind to type that first?) I agree about words not justifying death but on the other hand RR, what if from now on everyday I call you a dick publicly on this forum? I don't even know you but it should be in my right mind to not do this to you. Because I can though, I will. (not really, just making a point)"
If thats the way you really feel then let it fly! As with other instances of free speech you will likely be asked to substantiate your opinion, and you will be subject to being called a dick as well. That's the way the world works, and should work. Of course some things are inherently more offensive than others, if you dig at someone about personal issues or tragedies...that makes you a dick lol but oh well, sticks and stones!
The funny thing about this to me, and I mean funny literally, is that Charlie Hebdo was a pretty obscure publication with a small readership...until the idiots attacked them to suppress the images that are now being viewed by millions instead of thousands.
) Monkey Driven, Call this Living?0 -
And I am not suggesting that they stop printing that stuff out of fear. They should stop printing out of decency and some sense of journalisitic integrity.Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall0
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If thats the way you really feel then let it fly! As with other instances of free speech you will likely be asked to substantiate your opinion, and you will be subject to being called a dick as well. That's the way the world works, and should work. Of course some things are inherently more offensive than others, if you dig at someone about personal issues or tragedies...that makes you a dick lol but oh well, sticks and stones!
The funny thing about this to me, and I mean funny literally, is that Charlie Hebdo was a pretty obscure publication with a small readership...until the idiots attacked them to suppress the images that are now being viewed by millions instead of thousands.)
My point was to show cause and known effect. I am not in anyway condoning the attack but will simply say that the effect received was not a surprise nor out of the ordinary.
Swift justice to murderers for sure, religious driven or not. As long as there is religious extremism there will continue to be attacks when this particular religion is mocked. Right in their minds, wrong in ours.
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PJfanwillneverleave1 wrote: »And Jimmy I'm with your thought process here.Although speech may be tasteless and offensive,you can't pick and choose what is offensive and to who.So those freedoms of expression,thought and speech must never be bottled up at the risk of offending someone at some time.
The threat of Death and violence should never halt these freedoms regardless of the content.There is NEVER a reason words should justify death.
At the risk of starting a circular argument (why did that even enter my mind to type that first?) I agree about words not justifying death but on the other hand RR, what if from now on everyday I call you a dick publicly on this forum? I don't even know you but it should be in my right mind to not do this to you. Because I can though, I will. (not really, just making a point)
I see your point PJFan,and it is your right to call me a dick.As loud and as often you feel that you need to to express your point of view.What we are dealing with would be my reaction.If I was a hot head and came at you like a spider monkey as soon as you said it,that of course would be one response.Threatening to harm you and your loved ones if you don't take it back and apologize.Or I could take the high road and just ignore you.I could use my freedom of speech and call you a name back,But I could also look at the context.If you said to me,"Ryan you are A dick" sounds way worse then "Ryan ,don't be a dick" or that's a dick move,or That's a dickishmthing to say.All the latter roll right off.No biggie.My reaction is all I control,and I know it's just your opinion.We move on and your not invited to party with us when PJ plays West Palm.lol
Is it bad manners to call me a dick?Yes.Is it your right? Yes.What does it say about me if I pledge to seek you out and punch you in the face for calling me names?Its fucking asinine,that's what it says.
If someone is offended,too bad move on,don't buy the paper.Publish your own paper,start a petition,take out and add.Protest do anything other then kill.0 -
And PJfan,I can be a dick,so getting called out on it would be in order from time to time.Just saying.:)0
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The only way it ends is the abolishment of the Holy texts. All of them. They are filled with an endless litany of divisive rules, and what good can be found in them has been bettered by poets throughout the ages. Humanity's greatest poets have done what it's religious figures wouldn't, they have presented the greatest aspirations of humanity and left the filth in the trash where it belongs. There is inspiration enough to be found, and faith and belief can exist without the aged dogmas of people far less civilized than we have become.Monkey Driven, Call this Living?0
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RR your typo "That's a dickishmthing to say", has lead me to a new slang word.
Dicksmithing. "That dude is a total dicksmith"
"Oh don't worry about Bill, he's just out in his garage dicksmithing around, it's best to just ignore him"Monkey Driven, Call this Living?0 -
The only way it ends is the abolishment of the Holy texts. All of them.
Fully agree. Until that day there will be justified by god killer extremists. Let's just get this giant white elephant back into the centre of the room - by continuously provoking the bear (prophet) it will always end in barbaric death. Right in their extremists mind to do but wrong in our minds for them to do.
As long as there is in existence a holy text that can be interpreted in a way to justify killing a person this will always happen.
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