Reasonable US Position on Israel-Palestine

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Comments

  • dancinacrossthewater
    dancinacrossthewater Posts: 800
    Byrnzie said:

    dancinacrossthewater said:

    It takes time and hard work to get to a middle place on complex issues.

    It's not a complex issue. Not complex at all.

    Alright Byrnzie, let's go at it again, but try and keep it respectful.

    It's not just good guys/bad guys here. Yes, I acknowledge Israel is in the position of greater power. Yes, Palestinian civilians are at the greatest risk every time the conflict heats up.

    But looking at it as good guys vs. bad is not only incorrect, it's not gonna help solve anything.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    dancinacrossthewater said:

    Byrnzie said:

    dancinacrossthewater said:

    It takes time and hard work to get to a middle place on complex issues.

    It's not a complex issue. Not complex at all.

    Alright Byrnzie, let's go at it again, but try and keep it respectful.

    It's not just good guys/bad guys here. Yes, I acknowledge Israel is in the position of greater power. Yes, Palestinian civilians are at the greatest risk every time the conflict heats up.

    But looking at it as good guys vs. bad is not only incorrect, it's not gonna help solve anything.

    Or we could simply stick to the facts instead of posting personal opinions and fantasies, and outright lies.

    How's that?
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    Deja vu...
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • dancinacrossthewater
    dancinacrossthewater Posts: 800
    Alright I'm not getting into it with you anymore man. You don't hear me calling you that kind of shit.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    dancinacrossthewater said:

    Alright I'm not getting into it with you anymore man. You don't hear me calling you that kind of shit.

    I didn't call you anything. I said that a good starting point fir a 'reasonable' discussion would be to not post personal fantasies and lies.

    Why are you all pretending to be offended by that?

  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,594
    dancinacrossthewater said:

    The Juggler said:

    dancinacrossthewater said:

    Here's what I arrived after lengthy discussion in another thread, some of which has been productive, some not:


    "Look dude, I get the history of the Jews - both recent and ancient. When people keep trying to kill you, you get paranoid and unbalanced. You can think of Israel as the ultimate response to trauma - 'we've been fucked over for so long we're gonna make ourselves so strong that nobody can fuck with us, and we're gonna hurt some people along the way so those people feel a little bit of what we felt, even though they weren't the people who hurt us.'

    But you have to get over it. You can't hurt other people anymore. Israel is secure as a state - never mind the holocaust, it's not even 1948 anymore, or 1967, or 1973. If Iran ever actually seems like it's getting close to launcing on you, we've got your back. But until then, this shit you're doing must stop. We sever funding to your military, and if it doesn't look like you're a legitimate partner in the peace process (ie move to relinquish land, air sea control of Gaza, etc), we start supporting BDS too."

    As I said, this is far from a perfect US position - there are flaws that both Palestinians and Israelis could point out with it. But it's a reasonable starting point.

    as someone who has just been reading these threads....it's a pleasure to read your posts. if everyone on both sides of this argument could debate in such a civilized, well thought out manner, i think we'd be much closer to finding common ground.

    god speed!
    Thanks dude. It takes time and hard work to get to a middle place on complex issues.

    A thread titled "Gaza - graphic pics", for example, is predisposed not to get to a middle place. It's a bit weird that the mods locked the thread in the other forum, which I felt was moving in a positive direction, but not some of the ones here. (In the end, though, I'd rather all threads on the issue stay open)
    agreed. keep fighting the good fight!
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  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited August 2014
    brianlux said:

    Deja vu...

    Let's be perfectly honest, even I'd told datw that I'd promise to agree with everything he said, and that I'd made him a musical daisy chain that played Joan Baez songs on a constant loop, you'd still find a reason to be offended.

    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,594
    Byrnzie said:

    brianlux said:

    Deja vu...

    Let's be perfectly honest, even I'd told datw that I'd promise to agree with everything he said, and that I'd made him a musical daisy chain that played Joan Baez songs on a constant loop, you'd still find a reason to be offended.

    image
    www.myspace.com
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,098
    Byrnzie said:

    JimmyV said:

    Peace is the goal. Many realize that without an agreement that both sides can accept there will be no peace. Any such agreement would need to include Palestinian control over their own lives to truly take hold and truly end the hostilities. Not just for a week or a month, but forever. I look at control as a given when stating that peace is the goal.

    The Israeli's have already stated that they will not relinquish full military control of the West Bank. Also, did you not read 'The Palestine Papers' released by Wikileaks? They show that the Israeli's have no intention of accepting anything that gives the Palestinians even a semblance of a viable state.

    Once again, this has nothing to do with trying to reach 'an agreement that both sides can accept'. It has nothing to do with what either side is willing, or unwilling, to accept. It boils down to what their obligations are under International law. And what their obligations are under international law are perfectly unambiguous.

    sounds like it is has been decided.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    The Juggler said:

    Byrnzie said:

    brianlux said:

    Deja vu...

    Let's be perfectly honest, even I'd told datw that I'd promise to agree with everything he said, and that I'd made him a musical daisy chain that played Joan Baez songs on a constant loop, you'd still find a reason to be offended.

    image
    The Juggler thinks he's funny. Can someone tell him not to give up his day job? If I tell him then everyone will pretend to be offended.

    Thanks.

  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    dancinacrossthewater said:

    Byrnzie said:

    dancinacrossthewater said:

    It takes time and hard work to get to a middle place on complex issues.

    It's not a complex issue. Not complex at all.

    Alright Byrnzie, let's go at it again, but try and keep it respectful.

    It's not just good guys/bad guys here. Yes, I acknowledge Israel is in the position of greater power. Yes, Palestinian civilians are at the greatest risk every time the conflict heats up.

    But looking at it as good guys vs. bad is not only incorrect, it's not gonna help solve anything.
    I agree.... the time is long overdue where it matters who is right and who is wrong. Looking back does no good if moving forward is non existant.. and as long as we continue to look back(and lets face it when have we ever learnt from history?) There will be no future. And yes I speak from a position of privilege.
    hear my name
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  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    dancinacrossthewater said:

    People feeling more in control of their lives does increase the odds of peace, I'd wager

    Except they're not just looking to be in control of their own lives, they're looking to maintain their control over other people's lives too, as 47 years of refusing to abide by international law and end the occupation has shown.

  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    Byrnzie said:

    The Juggler said:

    Byrnzie said:

    brianlux said:

    Deja vu...

    Let's be perfectly honest, even I'd told datw that I'd promise to agree with everything he said, and that I'd made him a musical daisy chain that played Joan Baez songs on a constant loop, you'd still find a reason to be offended.

    image
    The Juggler thinks he's funny. Can someone tell him not to give up his day job? If I tell him then everyone will pretend to be offended.

    Thanks.

    I dnt even understand what he was implying in the video. U being in china and them being Chinese? No fucken clue.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited August 2014
    badbrains said:



    I dnt even understand what he was implying in the video. U being in china and them being Chinese? No fucken clue.

    Neither do I. But I suspect it was an attempt to be funny.

  • dancinacrossthewater
    dancinacrossthewater Posts: 800
    This got pretty bitchy pretty fast
  • dancinacrossthewater
    dancinacrossthewater Posts: 800
    Byrnzie said:

    dancinacrossthewater said:

    People feeling more in control of their lives does increase the odds of peace, I'd wager

    Except they're not just looking to be in control of their own lives, they're looking to maintain their control over other people's lives too, as 47 years of refusing to abide by international law and end the occupation has shown.

    that comment was about Palestinians
  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,598
    dancinacrossthewater said:

    This got pretty bitchy pretty fast

    Yep. Unnecessarily too.
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    JimmyV said:

    dancinacrossthewater said:

    This got pretty bitchy pretty fast

    Yep. Unnecessarily too.
    Yeah- the whole point for some here anymore seems to be striking out against other posters, seeing who can be more sarcastic and clever and insulting. Not exactly a very productive way to talk about serious issues. Most of us here find no use or interest in the petty bantering. Good to know others here feel the same way.

    Good time to practice the "ignore" button... although I think I've tried every key and button, f key and ctrl combo and still can't find that damn "ignore" button, hahaha!

    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • dancinacrossthewater
    dancinacrossthewater Posts: 800
    See it'd be easy to lock this thread now, but if it's left open maybe the people who wanna talk - agree and disagree but actually talk - can carry on a dialogue.
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    dancinacrossthewater said:

    See it'd be easy to lock this thread now, but if it's left open maybe the people who wanna talk - agree and disagree but actually talk - can carry on a dialogue.

    Yeah, I'm totally up for that. I vote* that we either lock the thread* or carry on a respectful conversation.

    (*Both figures-of speech- not like I have either a right to vote here or any influence on whether a thread is locked or not.)

    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

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