It takes time and hard work to get to a middle place on complex issues.
It's not a complex issue. Not complex at all.
Alright Byrnzie, let's go at it again, but try and keep it respectful.
It's not just good guys/bad guys here. Yes, I acknowledge Israel is in the position of greater power. Yes, Palestinian civilians are at the greatest risk every time the conflict heats up.
But looking at it as good guys vs. bad is not only incorrect, it's not gonna help solve anything.
I agree.... the time is long overdue where it matters who is right and who is wrong. Looking back does no good if moving forward is non existant.. and as long as we continue to look back(and lets face it when have we ever learnt from history?) There will be no future. And yes I speak from a position of privilege.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
People feeling more in control of their lives does increase the odds of peace, I'd wager
Except they're not just looking to be in control of their own lives, they're looking to maintain their control over other people's lives too, as 47 years of refusing to abide by international law and end the occupation has shown.
Let's be perfectly honest, even I'd told datw that I'd promise to agree with everything he said, and that I'd made him a musical daisy chain that played Joan Baez songs on a constant loop, you'd still find a reason to be offended.
The Juggler thinks he's funny. Can someone tell him not to give up his day job? If I tell him then everyone will pretend to be offended.
Thanks.
I dnt even understand what he was implying in the video. U being in china and them being Chinese? No fucken clue.
People feeling more in control of their lives does increase the odds of peace, I'd wager
Except they're not just looking to be in control of their own lives, they're looking to maintain their control over other people's lives too, as 47 years of refusing to abide by international law and end the occupation has shown.
Yeah- the whole point for some here anymore seems to be striking out against other posters, seeing who can be more sarcastic and clever and insulting. Not exactly a very productive way to talk about serious issues. Most of us here find no use or interest in the petty bantering. Good to know others here feel the same way.
Good time to practice the "ignore" button... although I think I've tried every key and button, f key and ctrl combo and still can't find that damn "ignore" button, hahaha!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
See it'd be easy to lock this thread now, but if it's left open maybe the people who wanna talk - agree and disagree but actually talk - can carry on a dialogue.
See it'd be easy to lock this thread now, but if it's left open maybe the people who wanna talk - agree and disagree but actually talk - can carry on a dialogue.
Yeah, I'm totally up for that. I vote* that we either lock the thread* or carry on a respectful conversation.
(*Both figures-of speech- not like I have either a right to vote here or any influence on whether a thread is locked or not.)
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Yeah- the whole point for some here anymore seems to be striking out against other posters, seeing who can be more sarcastic and clever and insulting. Not exactly a very productive way to talk about serious issues. Most of us here find no use or interest in the petty bantering. Good to know others here feel the same way.
Good time to practice the "ignore" button... although I think I've tried every key and button, f key and ctrl combo and still can't find that damn "ignore" button, hahaha!
I hope you find it soon. Anything to put an end to all the petty bitching and phoney indignation.
Then maybe the rest of us can have a serious discussion without a bunch of thin-skinned people getting offended every five minutes.
Yeah- the whole point for some here anymore seems to be striking out against other posters, seeing who can be more sarcastic and clever and insulting. Not exactly a very productive way to talk about serious issues. Most of us here find no use or interest in the petty bantering. Good to know others here feel the same way.
Good time to practice the "ignore" button... although I think I've tried every key and button, f key and ctrl combo and still can't find that damn "ignore" button, hahaha!
I hope you find it soon. Anything to put an end to all the petty bitching and phoney indignation.
Then maybe the rest of us can have a serious discussion without a bunch of thin-skinned people getting offended every five minutes.
Byrnzke, just as an example, if you could try and go 5 posts on the subject without using the phrase 'illegal land-grab,' it'd be nice. Not because you're not entitled to argue that Israeli grabbed land over the course of its existence, but because everybody knows that's how you feel about the way Israel acquired territory over the course of its existence, and you just repeating that phrase over and over again does nothing for the conversation at this point. Before the Imagine That thread was locked, for example, bad brains' contributions sometimes got me to think about/clarify/modify my own position. That kind of exchange is constructive. You constantly repeating the same phrase like you're on autopilot isn't.
I agree with dancin...Byrnzie,change 'illegal land grab' with...'taking more land away from the Palestinian people, building illegal settlements and breaking international laws'
I dunno, B, perhaps it is time to rephrase the truth.
I agree with dancin...Byrnzie,change 'illegal land grab' with...'taking more land away from the Palestinian people, building illegal settlements and breaking international laws'
I dunno, B, perhaps it is time to rephrase the truth.
Byrnzke, just as an example, if you could try and go 5 posts on the subject without using the phrase 'illegal land-grab,' it'd be nice. Not because you're not entitled to argue that Israeli grabbed land over the course of its existence, but because everybody knows that's how you feel about the way Israel acquired territory over the course of its existence, and you just repeating that phrase over and over again does nothing for the conversation at this point. Before the Imagine That thread was locked, for example, bad brains' contributions sometimes got me to think about/clarify/modify my own position. That kind of exchange is constructive. You constantly repeating the same phrase like you're on autopilot isn't.
But is an illegal land-grab. So why would you want to pretend otherwise?
Like I said above, which seemed to offend all of the easily offended people, if we can have a discussion from a position of basic honesty and reference to the factual record, instead of indulging personal fantasies, then we might get somewhere - we may get to a point where we can begin to focus on effective strategies by which to protest what's going on. In the meantime, personal opinions, fantasies and lies, simply clog up the arteries.
The establishment of settlements in the West Bank violates international humanitarian law which establishes principles that apply during war and occupation. Moreover, the settlements lead to the infringement of international human rights law.
The Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits an occupying power from transferring citizens from its own territory to the occupied territory (Article 49). The Hague Regulations prohibit an occupying power from undertaking permanent changes in the occupied area unless these are due to military needs in the narrow sense of the term, or unless they are undertaken for the benefit of the local population.
The establishment of settlements results in the violation of the rights of Palestinians as enshrined in international human rights law. Among other violations, the settlements infringe the right to self-determination, equality, property, an adequate standard of living, and freedom of movement.
See it'd be easy to lock this thread now, but if it's left open maybe the people who wanna talk - agree and disagree but actually talk - can carry on a dialogue.
Yeah, I'm totally up for that. I vote* that we either lock the thread* or carry on a respectful conversation.
(*Both figures-of speech- not like I have either a right to vote here or any influence on whether a thread is locked or not.)
I'd like to believe that this can be done. But can it? From everyone here?
Byrnzke, just as an example, if you could try and go 5 posts on the subject without using the phrase 'illegal land-grab,' it'd be nice. Not because you're not entitled to argue that Israeli grabbed land over the course of its existence, but because everybody knows that's how you feel about the way Israel acquired territory over the course of its existence, and you just repeating that phrase over and over again does nothing for the conversation at this point. Before the Imagine That thread was locked, for example, bad brains' contributions sometimes got me to think about/clarify/modify my own position. That kind of exchange is constructive. You constantly repeating the same phrase like you're on autopilot isn't.
But is an illegal land-grab. So why would you want to pretend otherwise?
Like I said above, which seemed to offend all of the easily offended people, if we can have a discussion from a position of basic honesty and reference to the factual record, instead of indulging personal fantasies, then we might get somewhere - we may get to a point where we can begin to focus on effective strategies by which to protest what's going on. In the meantime, personal opinions, fantasies and lies, simply clog up the arteries.
The establishment of settlements in the West Bank violates international humanitarian law which establishes principles that apply during war and occupation. Moreover, the settlements lead to the infringement of international human rights law.
The Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits an occupying power from transferring citizens from its own territory to the occupied territory (Article 49). The Hague Regulations prohibit an occupying power from undertaking permanent changes in the occupied area unless these are due to military needs in the narrow sense of the term, or unless they are undertaken for the benefit of the local population.
The establishment of settlements results in the violation of the rights of Palestinians as enshrined in international human rights law. Among other violations, the settlements infringe the right to self-determination, equality, property, an adequate standard of living, and freedom of movement.
I'm against the settlements man. Get em outta there. Gone. The continued existence of settlements is one reason I'd possibly support certain kinds of BDS.
Now what constructive criticism would you offer Hamas?
And you calling viewpoints that differ from yours fantasies or lies is both not true and not ok. There's nothing fantastic about the analysis I'm offering - it just clogs your arteries because it challenges your narrative.
Byrnzke, just as an example, if you could try and go 5 posts on the subject without using the phrase 'illegal land-grab,' it'd be nice. Not because you're not entitled to argue that Israeli grabbed land over the course of its existence, but because everybody knows that's how you feel about the way Israel acquired territory over the course of its existence, and you just repeating that phrase over and over again does nothing for the conversation at this point. Before the Imagine That thread was locked, for example, bad brains' contributions sometimes got me to think about/clarify/modify my own position. That kind of exchange is constructive. You constantly repeating the same phrase like you're on autopilot isn't.
But is an illegal land-grab. So why would you want to pretend otherwise?
Like I said above, which seemed to offend all of the easily offended people, if we can have a discussion from a position of basic honesty and reference to the factual record, instead of indulging personal fantasies, then we might get somewhere - we may get to a point where we can begin to focus on effective strategies by which to protest what's going on. In the meantime, personal opinions, fantasies and lies, simply clog up the arteries.
The establishment of settlements in the West Bank violates international humanitarian law which establishes principles that apply during war and occupation. Moreover, the settlements lead to the infringement of international human rights law.
The Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits an occupying power from transferring citizens from its own territory to the occupied territory (Article 49). The Hague Regulations prohibit an occupying power from undertaking permanent changes in the occupied area unless these are due to military needs in the narrow sense of the term, or unless they are undertaken for the benefit of the local population.
The establishment of settlements results in the violation of the rights of Palestinians as enshrined in international human rights law. Among other violations, the settlements infringe the right to self-determination, equality, property, an adequate standard of living, and freedom of movement.
I'm against the settlements man. Get em outta there. Gone. The continued existence of settlements is one reason I'd possibly support certain kinds of BDS.
Now what constructive criticism would you offer Hamas?
You will get crickets when it comes to criticism of Hamas.They do no wrong.Didnt you know that? The are just a cute little group of freedom fighters.
I agree with you that the settlements need to stop.Ill go one step farther and say The blockade needs to be relaxed and or modified and removed. So now Hamas will lay down arms right?Im sure they will allow The UN monitor a de militarized Gaza right? These are really the big issues on both sides .This should be easy,right?
Ok let's see if any criticism at all of Hamas is forthcoming. I'm not baiting you, Byrnzie...I'd like to hear in what areas you think Hamas has acted wrongly when it comes to the lives of both Palestinians and Israelis.
You answering that question doesn't mean at all that I want you to stop criticizing Israel, btw.
And I do agree with Byrnzie,no need to sugar coat anyone's thoughts here.Say what you think,no PC needed.I don't want to hear the Watered down opinions.I like the free flow of opinions and ideas.I don't have to agree with them or see it the same way,but I think we are all adults here and can handle a more "Spirited" conversation. Its healthy and Entertaining.
And I do agree with Byrnzie,no need to sugar coat anyone's thoughts here.Say what you think,no PC needed.I don't want to hear the Watered down opinions.I like the free flow of opinions and ideas.I don't have to agree with them or see it the same way,but I think we are all adults here and can handle a more "Spirited" conversation. Its healthy and Entertaining.
We are all on a freakin Rock band message board.We all have that in common.Right of the bat we have that brotherhood as a common thread.If we were at a show,none of this would matter to our fellow fans.So its all good. If someone puts a passioned and well researched opinion out for all to see and read,we have the choice to make our own opinion of it.Dig deeper or take it at face value.I don't agree (on this subject) with a lot of the views expressed here but on other threads I may agree with that person alot on another topic.You can't take this shit personally.
We are all on a freakin Rock band message board.We all have that in common.Right of the bat we have that brotherhood as a common thread.If we were at a show,none of this would matter to our fellow fans.So its all good. If someone puts a passioned and well researched opinion out for all to see and read,we have the choice to make our own opinion of it.Dig deeper or take it at face value.I don't agree (on this subject) with a lot of the views expressed here but on other threads I may agree with that person alot on another topic.You can't take this shit personally.
RR, wtf happened to you man, you're making sense now and I'm totally tripping. Wtf has happened to the world alright!!! )
We are all on a freakin Rock band message board.We all have that in common.Right of the bat we have that brotherhood as a common thread.If we were at a show,none of this would matter to our fellow fans.So its all good. If someone puts a passioned and well researched opinion out for all to see and read,we have the choice to make our own opinion of it.Dig deeper or take it at face value.I don't agree (on this subject) with a lot of the views expressed here but on other threads I may agree with that person alot on another topic.You can't take this shit personally.
RR, wtf happened to you man, you're making sense now and I'm totally tripping. Wtf has happened to the world alright!!! )
Ah badbrains, you make me laugh sometimes!
RR, hope you don't take that line too personally.. I admire your desire for peace, in spite of our disagreement on how to arrive there.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
We are all on a freakin Rock band message board.We all have that in common.Right of the bat we have that brotherhood as a common thread.If we were at a show,none of this would matter to our fellow fans.So its all good. If someone puts a passioned and well researched opinion out for all to see and read,we have the choice to make our own opinion of it.Dig deeper or take it at face value.I don't agree (on this subject) with a lot of the views expressed here but on other threads I may agree with that person alot on another topic.You can't take this shit personally.
i agree with this, but we also want to keep the threads open, or at least maintain consistency over what stays open and what doesn't.
there's also just no point in cheap-shotting each other. it's just dumb.
We are all on a freakin Rock band message board.We all have that in common.Right of the bat we have that brotherhood as a common thread.If we were at a show,none of this would matter to our fellow fans.So its all good. If someone puts a passioned and well researched opinion out for all to see and read,we have the choice to make our own opinion of it.Dig deeper or take it at face value.I don't agree (on this subject) with a lot of the views expressed here but on other threads I may agree with that person alot on another topic.You can't take this shit personally.
RR, wtf happened to you man, you're making sense now and I'm totally tripping. Wtf has happened to the world alright!!! )
Ah badbrains, you make me laugh sometimes!
RR, hope you don't take that line too personally.. I admire your desire for peace, in spite of our disagreement on how to arrive there.
Thanks Ben, I try my friend. I know RR is all good with that jab. He knows I meant it with "love" lol.
We are all on a freakin Rock band message board.We all have that in common.Right of the bat we have that brotherhood as a common thread.If we were at a show,none of this would matter to our fellow fans.So its all good. If someone puts a passioned and well researched opinion out for all to see and read,we have the choice to make our own opinion of it.Dig deeper or take it at face value.I don't agree (on this subject) with a lot of the views expressed here but on other threads I may agree with that person alot on another topic.You can't take this shit personally.
Opinions?!! You're not allowed to have opinions here. Just straight facts homie straight facts
Comments
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Good time to practice the "ignore" button... although I think I've tried every key and button, f key and ctrl combo and still can't find that damn "ignore" button, hahaha!
(*Both figures-of speech- not like I have either a right to vote here or any influence on whether a thread is locked or not.)
Then maybe the rest of us can have a serious discussion without a bunch of thin-skinned people getting offended every five minutes.
I dunno, B, perhaps it is time to rephrase the truth.
Like I said above, which seemed to offend all of the easily offended people, if we can have a discussion from a position of basic honesty and reference to the factual record, instead of indulging personal fantasies, then we might get somewhere - we may get to a point where we can begin to focus on effective strategies by which to protest what's going on. In the meantime, personal opinions, fantasies and lies, simply clog up the arteries.
http://www.btselem.org/settlements/international_law
The establishment of settlements in the West Bank violates international humanitarian law which establishes principles that apply during war and occupation. Moreover, the settlements lead to the infringement of international human rights law.
The Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits an occupying power from transferring citizens from its own territory to the occupied territory (Article 49). The Hague Regulations prohibit an occupying power from undertaking permanent changes in the occupied area unless these are due to military needs in the narrow sense of the term, or unless they are undertaken for the benefit of the local population.
The establishment of settlements results in the violation of the rights of Palestinians as enshrined in international human rights law. Among other violations, the settlements infringe the right to self-determination, equality, property, an adequate standard of living, and freedom of movement.
Now what constructive criticism would you offer Hamas?
I agree with you that the settlements need to stop.Ill go one step farther and say The blockade needs to be relaxed and or modified and removed.
So now Hamas will lay down arms right?Im sure they will allow The UN monitor a de militarized Gaza right? These are really the big issues on both sides .This should be easy,right?
You answering that question doesn't mean at all that I want you to stop criticizing Israel, btw.
Its healthy and Entertaining.
If someone puts a passioned and well researched opinion out for all to see and read,we have the choice to make our own opinion of it.Dig deeper or take it at face value.I don't agree (on this subject) with a lot of the views expressed here but on other threads I may agree with that person alot on another topic.You can't take this shit personally.
RR, hope you don't take that line too personally.. I admire your desire for peace, in spite of our disagreement on how to arrive there.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
there's also just no point in cheap-shotting each other. it's just dumb.
You're not allowed to have opinions here.
Just straight facts homie straight facts
\:D/