The Death Penalty

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  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,674
    polaris_x wrote:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    Your values. I'm okay with you having them. I get my back up when I'm called out on mine that are different than yours- in particular when I feel I am right.

    there is no right or wrong here ... unless you claim that the DP serves a bigger purpose ...

    this issue is about morality and what kind of society one wants to be part of ...

    fore me - violence begets violence ... solving problems by violence only creates more problems ...
    Definitely. Again, I don't want our governments to be in the business of revenge, and that is the ONLY purpose of the death penalty.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

    I have already said I seek 100% certainty before convicting anyone of a crime. My point to illustrating the 2 examples I provided were to illustrate the fact that the law is not ruthlessly detaining people on hunches and suspicions as is sometimes suggested in these discussions.
    The thing is, you're not running the justice system. That's nice that you would only have someone kill the people who were caught red handed... But that isn't how the system works obviously, unless you personally expect to be an eyewitness to the crimes in question, with a video camera. What if witnesses are liars? Or remember things incorectly? What if some racist cop planted evidence or lied under oath? Anyway, the point I'm making is that one shouldn't support the death penalty based on how they think the system SHOULD work, but on how it DOES work.... And that's assuming said person is okay with their government murdering people for revenge.

    I've been over this before: I support the Death Penalty for crimes of the extreme nature. Crimes of the serial or mass variety or crimes involving children are examples of extreme crimes. When is the last time someone was wrongfully convicted of being a serial murderer?

    And I can support the death penalty while still seeking measures of improvement. If I have to take it as is without suggesting how improvements might make it better... then I'll take it as is. But tell me this: how many other themes have people suggest modifications? This forum is filled with comments from people that suggest revisionary work in all aspects of life. Makes for good discussion.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    Your values. I'm okay with you having them. I get my back up when I'm called out on mine that are different than yours- in particular when I feel I am right.

    there is no right or wrong here ... unless you claim that the DP serves a bigger purpose ...

    this issue is about morality and what kind of society one wants to be part of ...

    fore me - violence begets violence ... solving problems by violence only creates more problems ...
    Definitely. Again, I don't want our governments to be in the business of revenge, and that is the ONLY purpose of the death penalty.

    The DP serves a very noble purpose that you both choose to ignore. It provides a measure of relief to the survivors that demand it as justice for their slain loved ones. As much as people wish to remove them from the equation... they are very much a part of the equation- at the very center of it. I'm not one for ignoring the pain they must endure knowing the killer of their child is humping sex dolls in prison, getting married, playing ping pong or answering fan mail.

    I have also posted another link where credible people have produced the data indicating the DP is a deterrent. There is data suggesting otherwise as well... but my point is that one side says the dp does not act as a deterrent... one side says it does.

    It's all irrelevant though. My stance comes from the corner of the wronged and I am swinging hard for them. If you choose to ignore those people's pain in the name of enlightenment... then that is up to you. As I have said before... find yourself in those shoes and seeking justice... I'll be arguing that you deserve it.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    We can argue what we need to do with deranged murderers until we are blue in the face, but one thing cannot be argued: if people would be nicer... this debate would not need to occur.

    Does the murderer of a child expect any degree of mercy from society for such an obscene crime? I would think after they have crossed that line... they are not expecting much- although they are likely hopeful.

    For me it's simple: don't kill someone's child and you won't be executed. If you absolutely have to... well... sorry, man... but that is inexcusable and we sentence you to our harshest penalty that should reflect our level of disdain for your actions.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    The DP serves a very noble purpose that you both choose to ignore. It provides a measure of relief to the survivors that demand it as justice for their slain loved ones. As much as people wish to remove them from the equation... they are very much a part of the equation- at the very center of it. I'm not one for ignoring the pain they must endure knowing the killer of their child is humping sex dolls in prison, getting married, playing ping pong or answering fan mail.

    I have also posted another link where credible people have produced the data indicating the DP is a deterrent. There is data suggesting otherwise as well... but my point is that one side says the dp does not act as a deterrent... one side says it does.

    It's all irrelevant though. My stance comes from the corner of the wronged and I am swinging hard for them. If you choose to ignore those people's pain in the name of enlightenment... then that is up to you. As I have said before... find yourself in those shoes and seeking justice... I'll be arguing that you deserve it.

    it is not about ignoring the pain of the victims ... you've had the discussion with multiple people and i will simply say that (as others have reiterated) that the relatives of victims have no place in determining what is justice ... that is what the justice system is for ...

    having said that - again, it is not about ignoring the pain ... what if a family did not want to see a person killed ... does the justice system change based on those feelings? ... what if killing the person causes more pain? ... what if a family wants the parents of a murderer incarcerated so they can get a measure of relief!? ...

    in the end ... the justice system is molded based on the value system of a society ... and the society i wish to be a part of does not choose violence as a means of justice ... for the same reasons why i am anti-war - i am anti death penalty ...

    where has this violence gotten anyone anywhere? ... why is it that the majority of peaceful countries do not have capital punishment or are aggressors in general?
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    For me it's simple: don't kill someone's child and you won't be executed. If you absolutely have to... well... sorry, man... but that is inexcusable and we sentence you to our harshest penalty that should reflect our level of disdain for your actions.

    do you honestly think a murderer is gonna change their mind because if they get caught they will die!???
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,674
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    there is no right or wrong here ... unless you claim that the DP serves a bigger purpose ...

    this issue is about morality and what kind of society one wants to be part of ...

    fore me - violence begets violence ... solving problems by violence only creates more problems ...
    Definitely. Again, I don't want our governments to be in the business of revenge, and that is the ONLY purpose of the death penalty.

    The DP serves a very noble purpose that you both choose to ignore. It provides a measure of relief to the survivors that demand it as justice for their slain loved ones. As much as people wish to remove them from the equation... they are very much a part of the equation- at the very center of it. I'm not one for ignoring the pain they must endure knowing the killer of their child is humping sex dolls in prison, getting married, playing ping pong or answering fan mail.

    I have also posted another link where credible people have produced the data indicating the DP is a deterrent. There is data suggesting otherwise as well... but my point is that one side says the dp does not act as a deterrent... one side says it does.

    It's all irrelevant though. My stance comes from the corner of the wronged and I am swinging hard for them. If you choose to ignore those people's pain in the name of enlightenment... then that is up to you. As I have said before... find yourself in those shoes and seeking justice... I'll be arguing that you deserve it.
    I am not comfortable at all with a government committing murder just to arbitrarily say that they are offering comfort to families, many of which don't get that comfort at all, and none of whom actually determine if it happens, nor do they know if it will help. Noble?? I disagree that our government decided to exact revenge, often in order to make a statement, is noble AT ALL. I don't think that reason is even CLOSE to being a good justification for the death penalty. I've never ignored that line of thinking... I discounted it many years ago. It is a non-factor to me. If we were talking about the families going out and killing the criminal themselves, then I would consider it.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    polaris_x wrote:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    For me it's simple: don't kill someone's child and you won't be executed. If you absolutely have to... well... sorry, man... but that is inexcusable and we sentence you to our harshest penalty that should reflect our level of disdain for your actions.

    do you honestly think a murderer is gonna change their mind because if they get caught they will die!???

    Can you honestly say that there would never be an incident where someone thinking of murdering someone will not because they fear an execution?

    This post you quoted spoke to society's response to a crime it abhors. Do you honestly think a guy murdering someone should serve time like a drug dealer might or do you think that the rape, murder, and mutilation of a child should maybe demand something a little more severe?
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,674
    polaris_x wrote:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    For me it's simple: don't kill someone's child and you won't be executed. If you absolutely have to... well... sorry, man... but that is inexcusable and we sentence you to our harshest penalty that should reflect our level of disdain for your actions.

    do you honestly think a murderer is gonna change their mind because if they get caught they will die!???
    It has been very clearly shown that capital punishment has NO effect at all as far as deterrence goes.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    polaris_x wrote:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    For me it's simple: don't kill someone's child and you won't be executed. If you absolutely have to... well... sorry, man... but that is inexcusable and we sentence you to our harshest penalty that should reflect our level of disdain for your actions.

    do you honestly think a murderer is gonna change their mind because if they get caught they will die!???
    a murderer is not neccesarily a vile monster. again, depends on the horrors of the crime. a murderer could be a guy defending himself in a drug deal gone wrong; this guy isn't a child molester who tortures kids & women in a underground bunker

    sorry i interupted into your conversation
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    I am not comfortable at all with a government committing murder just to arbitrarily say that they are offering comfort to families, many of which don't get that comfort at all, and none of whom actually determine if it happens, nor do they know if it will help. Noble?? I disagree that our government decided to exact revenge, often in order to make a statement, is noble AT ALL. I don't think that reason is even CLOSE to being a good justification for the death penalty. I've never ignored that line of thinking... I discounted it many years ago. It is a non-factor to me. If we were talking about the families going out and killing the criminal themselves, then I would consider it.

    Sounds to me like you are a little conflicted then. Your last sentence seems to suggest so.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    chadwick wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    For me it's simple: don't kill someone's child and you won't be executed. If you absolutely have to... well... sorry, man... but that is inexcusable and we sentence you to our harshest penalty that should reflect our level of disdain for your actions.

    do you honestly think a murderer is gonna change their mind because if they get caught they will die!???
    a murderer is not neccesarily a vile monster. again, depends on the horrors of the crime. a murderer could be a guy defending himself in a drug deal gone wrong; this guy isn't a child molester who tortures kids & women in a underground bunker

    sorry i interupted into your conversation

    Chime in, Chadwick. Feel free.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    For me it's simple: don't kill someone's child and you won't be executed. If you absolutely have to... well... sorry, man... but that is inexcusable and we sentence you to our harshest penalty that should reflect our level of disdain for your actions.

    do you honestly think a murderer is gonna change their mind because if they get caught they will die!???
    It has been very clearly shown that capital punishment has NO effect at all as far as deterrence goes.

    It has not been clearly shown to have NO effect. As I introduced about 20 pages ago or so... the DP and the ineffective use of it has not produced the deterrent effect that many- smarter than you or I- feel it could.

    For that matter... you argue that even one innocent executed is an argument against the DP... one could make the counter-argument that even one innocent saved as a result of the DP is an argument for it.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,674
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    For me it's simple: don't kill someone's child and you won't be executed. If you absolutely have to... well... sorry, man... but that is inexcusable and we sentence you to our harshest penalty that should reflect our level of disdain for your actions.

    do you honestly think a murderer is gonna change their mind because if they get caught they will die!???

    Can you honestly say that there would never be an incident where someone thinking of murdering someone will not because they fear an execution?

    This post you quoted spoke to society's response to a crime it abhors. Do you honestly think a guy murdering someone should serve time like a drug dealer might or do you think that the rape, murder, and mutilation of a child should maybe demand something a little more severe?
    If they aren't afraid of life in prison without parole they aren't going to be afraid of the death penalty.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    Can you honestly say that there would never be an incident where someone thinking of murdering someone will not because they fear an execution?

    This post you quoted spoke to society's response to a crime it abhors. Do you honestly think a guy murdering someone should serve time like a drug dealer might or do you think that the rape, murder, and mutilation of a child should maybe demand something a little more severe?

    i don't believe capital punishment to be a deterrent in violent crime ... if anything it might actually support it ...

    i can see that you don't think so and i'm sure you've read all the various sources on this so let's just agree to disagree ...

    as for the second part of your question ... i believe in a justice system that is fair but compassionate ... if you are asking me to weigh the severity of every crime - it could take a while ... in the end tho - it doesn't change my position that the society i wish to be a part of does not choose violence to deliver justice nor solve it's problems ... so, i am anti-war and anti-torture ...
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

    I have already said I seek 100% certainty before convicting anyone of a crime. My point to illustrating the 2 examples I provided were to illustrate the fact that the law is not ruthlessly detaining people on hunches and suspicions as is sometimes suggested in these discussions.
    The thing is, you're not running the justice system. That's nice that you would only have someone kill the people who were caught red handed... But that isn't how the system works obviously, unless you personally expect to be an eyewitness to the crimes in question, with a video camera. What if witnesses are liars? Or remember things incorectly? What if some racist cop planted evidence or lied under oath? Anyway, the point I'm making is that one shouldn't support the death penalty based on how they think the system SHOULD work, but on how it DOES work.... And that's assuming said person is okay with their government murdering people for revenge.

    I've been over this before: I support the Death Penalty for crimes of the extreme nature. Crimes of the serial or mass variety or crimes involving children are examples of extreme crimes. When is the last time someone was wrongfully convicted of being a serial murderer?

    And I can support the death penalty while still seeking measures of improvement. If I have to take it as is without suggesting how improvements might make it better... then I'll take it as is. But tell me this: how many other themes have people suggest modifications? This forum is filled with comments from people that suggest revisionary work in all aspects of life. Makes for good discussion.
    We can revise and improve our system all we want but there wil always be inocent people put to death.....period..there is no grey area in this...SOOOOO are you okay with a few innocents being put to death? Yes or No?
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,674
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:

    do you honestly think a murderer is gonna change their mind because if they get caught they will die!???
    It has been very clearly shown that capital punishment has NO effect at all as far as deterrence goes.

    It has not been clearly shown to have NO effect. As I introduced about 20 pages ago or so... the DP and the ineffective use of it has not produced the deterrent effect that many- smarter than you or I- feel it could.

    For that matter... you argue that even one innocent executed is an argument against the DP... one could make the counter-argument that even one innocent saved as a result of the DP is an argument for it.
    Well that argument wouldn't work with me, that's for sure. What some crazy person does is one thing. What the government does to its people is something completely different. Again, I know you fully understand the threat to liberty from the government that that kind of argument creates, so I won't go into it.

    Anyway, I think we all know each other's argument here.... Now it's just a case of all of us being informed and knowledgeable about all the factors to consider and smart enough to understand them, and still not all agreeing with one another. The discussion is becoming circular IMO.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    polaris_x wrote:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    Can you honestly say that there would never be an incident where someone thinking of murdering someone will not because they fear an execution?

    This post you quoted spoke to society's response to a crime it abhors. Do you honestly think a guy murdering someone should serve time like a drug dealer might or do you think that the rape, murder, and mutilation of a child should maybe demand something a little more severe?

    i don't believe capital punishment to be a deterrent in violent crime ... if anything it might actually support it ...

    i can see that you don't think so and i'm sure you've read all the various sources on this so let's just agree to disagree ...

    as for the second part of your question ... i believe in a justice system that is fair but compassionate ... if you are asking me to weigh the severity of every crime - it could take a while ... in the end tho - it doesn't change my position that the society i wish to be a part of does not choose violence to deliver justice nor solve it's problems ... so, i am anti-war and anti-torture ...

    Hey, I understand you are a good person. Don't confuse me for not being a good person either. I'm strongly against war and torture as well.

    But I am against cold-blooded, heartless murder. And I love our children. I feel our actions reflect our attitudes and when we sentence the murderers of our children to jail where they do all those fun things that their dismembered victims buried in the dirt can't... it displays a level of tolerance that I do not wish for.

    I could compromise. If you don't have the stomach for executing people such as Steve Smith, who raped (killing in the process) a 6 month old child... then I could settle on a small, square, grey, brick cell with a hole in the floor, 2 sparse meals a day, and one book that cannot be exchanged.

    Deal?
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    JimmyV wrote:
    callen wrote:
    Would rather have a hundred scumbags walk free than sacrificing one innocent person.

    Then what do we say to a parent whose child was brutally murdered by one of these hundred scumbags who walked free?

    The death penalty should be used sparingly, as an ultimate punishment, and only in cases where guilt is assured. Innocents are killed because the death penalty is used far too often.
    I'd tell them two wrongs don't make a right.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,674
    callen wrote:
    JimmyV wrote:
    callen wrote:
    Would rather have a hundred scumbags walk free than sacrificing one innocent person.

    Then what do we say to a parent whose child was brutally murdered by one of these hundred scumbags who walked free?

    The death penalty should be used sparingly, as an ultimate punishment, and only in cases where guilt is assured. Innocents are killed because the death penalty is used far too often.
    I'd tell them two wrongs don't make a right.
    Ditto.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata

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