Israel/Gaza

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  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    EdsonNascimento wrote:
    Hugh, you are asking great questions. Don't hope to get honest answers here. But, when something quacks like a duck, it's usually a duck. If you think something doesn't make sense, it probably doesn't (and vice versa). Biased answers can't get to the point of your valid queries. Keep asking, but look elsewhere for your answers.

    I'm here to learn, not to be insulted.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    EdsonNascimento wrote:
    The fact is if Israel gave the Palestinians exactly what they wanted (other than dying which is their REAL desire), there would still not be peace for Israel.

    So you think that Palestinians won't be satisfied until all Israeli's are killed? Interesting. Where did you come up with this? Is it something you dreamed one night, or did you just say it because you thought it sounded good?

    Who's been doing all the killing these past 60 years? I suggest you take a look at the facts. The Palestinians, including Hamas, have stated on numerous occasions that they will observe a permanent ceasefire if Israel pulls back to the 1967 borders, in line with international law.

    As for there being no peace for Israel if it began abiding by international law and ended it's ethnic cleansing and land-grab, how did you come to this conclusion? Was something else you dreamed in your sleep, or is it just a convenient excuse for supporting Israeli terror and theft?
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    They're turning up the heat:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/de ... inspectors


    UN tells Israel to let in nuclear inspectors

    As nuclear peace talks are cancelled, overwhelming vote by general assembly calls for Israel to join nonproliferation treaty

    The UN general assembly has overwhelmingly approved a resolution calling on Israel to open its nuclear programme for inspection.

    The resolution, approved by a vote of 174 to six with six abstentions, calls on Israel to join the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT) "without further delay" and open its nuclear facilities to inspection by the International Atomic Energy Agency. Those voting against were Israel, the US, Canada, Marshall Islands, Micronesia and Palau.

    Resolutions adopted by the 193-member general assembly are not legally binding but they do reflect world opinion and carry moral and political weight. And the resolution adds to pressure on Israel as it faces criticism over plans to increase settlement in the West Bank, a move seen as retaliation for the assembly recognising Palestinian statehood.

    ....
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    I'm here to learn, not to be insulted.

    if you want further proof about our unwavering support for israel ... consider our response to the recent expansion announcement ... even the US condemned the expansion - yet our man Baird sits alone in his support ... brutal ...

    and edson is right in so much as you should seek opinions from all sides to formulate your thoughts on this ... i will add tho that if you haven't noticed ... no one has responded to the plethora of articles posted on here countering palestinians claims ... outside of yosi - the only supporters of israel tend to repeat the same things over and over again ... claims that if you take a critical view of - really have no substance to them whatsoever ...

    the whole iran/palestine wants israel wiped off the map or all jews killed is about as ignorant a viewpoint as there is ...
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,065
    Byrnzie wrote:
    They're turning up the heat:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/de ... inspectors


    UN tells Israel to let in nuclear inspectors

    As nuclear peace talks are cancelled, overwhelming vote by general assembly calls for Israel to join nonproliferation treaty

    The UN general assembly has overwhelmingly approved a resolution calling on Israel to open its nuclear programme for inspection.

    The resolution, approved by a vote of 174 to six with six abstentions, calls on Israel to join the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT) "without further delay" and open its nuclear facilities to inspection by the International Atomic Energy Agency. Those voting against were Israel, the US, Canada, Marshall Islands, Micronesia and Palau.

    Resolutions adopted by the 193-member general assembly are not legally binding but they do reflect world opinion and carry moral and political weight. And the resolution adds to pressure on Israel as it faces criticism over plans to increase settlement in the West Bank, a move seen as retaliation for the assembly recognising Palestinian statehood.

    ....
    good.

    if the israeli government wants to punk the palestinians and punish them, the rest of the world SHOULD turn up the heat. it is the moral obligation to do so.

    what is the israeli government response to this?

    my guess is most likely more of the same "we are the real victims" schtick...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,065
    here is more. this is serious.

    israel is clearly in the driver's seat in this situation. they control their own destiny. if they proceed with settlement expansion the palestinians have every right to seek restitution in international court. israel should back down because their position is indefensible and they know it.. if israel backs down then they can spare themselves any potential charges for the time being.

    Israel could face Palestinian war crimes charges

    http://news.yahoo.com/israel-could-face ... 00623.html

    RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) — A senior Palestinian official is warning that the West Bank government will pursue war crime charges against Israel if it doesn't stop settlement construction.

    Israel announced a major settlement construction push after the U.N. General Assembly recognized a de facto Palestinian state.

    Palestinian official Nabil Shaath said late Monday that "many countries" have urged the Palestinian Authority not to use its new status to seek war crimes charges against Israel at the International Criminal Court, a U.N. body.

    Shaath says that "by continuing these war crimes of settlement activities" on occupied territories, Israel is "pushing and forcing us to go to the ICC."

    Israel has defied calls to rescind its construction plans.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • EdsonNascimento
    EdsonNascimento Posts: 5,531
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    EdsonNascimento wrote:
    Hugh, you are asking great questions. Don't hope to get honest answers here. But, when something quacks like a duck, it's usually a duck. If you think something doesn't make sense, it probably doesn't (and vice versa). Biased answers can't get to the point of your valid queries. Keep asking, but look elsewhere for your answers.

    I'm here to learn, not to be insulted.

    That was insulting? I meant it to be a compliment - you're asking great questions. If anything, I was insulting the lot of us (including me) and our biases and half truths. You'd be better served doing your own research, as you seem like the most level headed person here.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • EdsonNascimento
    EdsonNascimento Posts: 5,531
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    EdsonNascimento wrote:
    The fact is if Israel gave the Palestinians exactly what they wanted (other than dying which is their REAL desire), there would still not be peace for Israel.
    this is the most ill informed answer i have ever read.

    not all palestinians want israelis dead. you know that is not the case, so please stop spouting bullshit.

    also, it is outrageous to arbitrarily claim that there would not be peace even if israel gave the palestinians what they wanted. how do you know? you don't.

    how about israel start abiding by international law and stop punishing the palestinian civilians simply because the UN dealt the zionists a setback?

    it must really sting israel to see that less than 15 countries at the UN support their position on this issue. and if it were not for the US supporting israel they would have had even less support.

    You are right - I should not have alluded to the Palestinians that way, and been more succinct in my reference - that is more directly regarding Hamas. I have no idea what individuals think. But, I do know what Hamas and their allies think. As it is, as I have said.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    EdsonNascimento wrote:
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    EdsonNascimento wrote:
    Hugh, you are asking great questions. Don't hope to get honest answers here. But, when something quacks like a duck, it's usually a duck. If you think something doesn't make sense, it probably doesn't (and vice versa). Biased answers can't get to the point of your valid queries. Keep asking, but look elsewhere for your answers.

    I'm here to learn, not to be insulted.

    That was insulting? I meant it to be a compliment - you're asking great questions. If anything, I was insulting the lot of us (including me) and our biases and half truths. You'd be better served doing your own research, as you seem like the most level headed person here.

    my apologies if I misunderstood,I felt the post was patronizing. If that was not the intent, then again, my apologies.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... vote-rogue


    The US and Israel: a short quiz on 'rogue nation' status

    A series of events just from this week makes clear who is actually violating the consensus of the international community


    Glenn Greenwald
    guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 4 December 2012


    The phrase "rogue nation" is one of the terms that get tossed around often in political discourse without much effort devoted to its actual meaning. Let's try to apply this term to a series of events just from the last week, beginning with this one:

    "The 193-nation UN General Assembly on Thursday overwhelmingly approved the de facto recognition of a sovereign Palestinian state . . . . There were 138 votes in favor, nine against and 41 abstentions. . . . .The assembly approved the upgrade despite threats by the United States and Israel to punish the Palestinians by withholding funds for the West Bank government.. . . .The Czech Republic was unique in Europe, joining the United States, Israel, Canada, Panama and tiny Pacific Island states likes Nauru, Palau and Micronesia in voting against the move."

    In response, Israel announced it would "punish" the Palestinians for the UN vote by approving more settlements (which virtually the entire world deems illegal) and withholding tax revenue that was to pay employees of the Palestinian Authority; that behavior by Israel resulted in this:

    "Australia and Brazil summoned their Israeli ambassadors on Tuesday to protest against Israel's decision to expand Jewish settlements in east Jerusalem and the West Bank and withhold tax revenue from the Palestinian Authority.

    "The moves followed similar actions in Europe including Spain, France, Britain, Sweden and Denmark in the wake of the Palestinians winning de facto UN recognition of statehood."

    Meanwhile, it was reported today that "Britain and other European countries will consider 'further steps' if Israel refuses to reverse its plans for settlement expansion after a wave of diplomatic protests." And then finally, we have this, from Monday [emphasis added]:

    "The UN general assembly has overwhelmingly approved a resolution calling on Israel to open its nuclear programme for inspection.

    "The resolution, approved by a vote of 174 to six with six abstentions, calls on Israel to join the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT) 'without further delay' and open its nuclear facilities to inspection by the International Atomic Energy Agency. Those voting against were Israel, the US, Canada, Marshall Islands, Micronesia and Palau. . . .

    "The vote came as a sequel to the cancellation of a high-level conference aimed at banning nuclear weapons from the Middle East. All the Arab nations and Iran had planned to attend the summit in mid-December in Helsinki, Finland, but the US announced on 23 November that it would not take place, citing political turmoil in the region and Iran's defiant stance on non-proliferation. Iran and some Arab nations countered that the real reason for the cancellation was Israel's refusal to attend."

    So essentially, it's the entire planet on one side, versus the US, its new right-wing poodle to the north, Israel, and three tiny, bribed islands on the other side.

    If you're a member in good standing of the Washington-based US foreign policy community, then the way you describe these matters is as follows: "the international community stands by Israel and supports its position" - because, in that warped, self-affirming world, "international community" is a synonym for "US dictates".

    But for those fortunate enough to reside outside of that realm of intense imperial propaganda: who is actually opposed to the consensus of the international community here? In other words, who are the real "rogue nations"?
  • aerial
    aerial Posts: 2,319
    Any Nation that does not let there people live a free life is a rogue nation. In other words free of dictators, free of mandatory religion, a government free off condoning pedophilia, free of pubic torture, free of condoning zero respect of women, free of condoning death for all Jews or any other religion. That is just a few examples.

    Get rid of Hamas and all other murdering organizations and I believe Israel and other nations could live together.
    “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,065
    Palestinians to UN: Stop 2 big Israeli settlements

    http://news.yahoo.com/palestinians-un-s ... 00565.html

    RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) — The Palestinians will ask the U.N. Security Council to demand a halt to construction of two large Israeli settlements near Jerusalem, a senior Palestinian official said Wednesday.

    The Security Council bid is part of an escalating international showdown over Israeli settlement building plans the Palestinians see as a final blow to Mideast peace hopes.

    The Palestinians hope to get a binding U.N. resolution — something that would require that the U.S. does not cast a veto in the Security Council as it did nearly two years ago to shield close ally Israel from censure over the settlements.

    The U.S. would have to block the construction through other means if it wants to avoid a veto, said the Palestinian official, Saeb Erekat. Israel, already increasingly isolated over its settlement policy, could flout a Security Council decision, but at a high diplomatic cost.

    Israel has built dozens of settlements for half a million Israelis since it captured the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem in 1967. This has made an eventual partition of the land, the internationally backed solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, increasingly difficult.

    However, the Palestinians are particularly concerned about plans for more than 7,500 apartments and hundreds of hotel rooms in two future settlements, known as E-1 and Givat Hamatos, on the eastern and southern edges of Jerusalem.

    Critics say the settlements would cut off traditionally Arab east Jerusalem from its West Bank hinterland and destroy hopes of a viable Palestinian state alongside Israel, with Jerusalem as a shared capital.

    Israel had frozen E-1 plans under pressure from successive U.S. administrations, but revived them last week, after the U.N. General Assembly accepted Palestine in the pre-1967 lines as a non-member observer state. Meanwhile, Givat Hamatos is moving forward, with a district planning committee to meet in mid-December for the next approval stage.

    Late Tuesday, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas met with senior officials in the PLO and his Fatah movement to decide on the next steps. The group decided to seek Security Council intervention, said Erekat, a senior Abbas aide.

    The Palestinians want the council to demand, in a binding resolution, that Israel revoke its decisions to build E-1 and Givat Hamatos, Erekat told The Associated Press.

    "If the Israelis build E-1 and Givat Hamatos, it means the idea of peace, the idea of a two-state solution, will disappear," he said.

    He said the U.S. should pressure Israel if it wants to avoid Security Council action.

    "If the U.S. can stop the Israelis without the Security Council, they should do it," he said. "They (the Americans) cannot stop us and use the veto against people trying to save the peace process."

    Israel's Foreign Ministry spokesman was not immediately available for comment. Israeli officials have defended the new settlement plans as a measured response to the Palestinian U.N. bid, which Israel claims violates agreements between the two sides.

    In February 2011, 14 Security Council members voted for a resolution condemning Israeli settlement construction on occupied lands as illegal. The U.S. cast a veto, saying that while it agreed settlements are illegitimate, the resolution harms chances for Israeli-Palestinian negotiations.

    Such talks have been frozen for the past four years, with Palestinians saying they cannot go back to the table as long as Israel keeps building on occupied land and pre-empts the outcome of negotiations. Israel argues there should be no conditions for talks.

    After last week's General Assembly vote, Israel appeared increasingly isolated, facing strident international criticism of its continued construction on war-won land the world overwhelmingly said belongs to the Palestinians.

    More than half a dozen countries have summoned local Israeli ambassadors since the beginning of the week to protest the latest building plans. British Foreign Secretary William Hague told the British parliament Tuesday that there might be further diplomatic steps, though he suggested Europe is not considering economic sanctions against Israel for now.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,065
    aerial wrote:
    Any Nation that does not let there people live a free life is a rogue nation. In other words free of dictators, free of mandatory religion, a government free off condoning pedophilia, free of pubic torture, free of condoning zero respect of women, free of condoning death for all Jews or any other religion. That is just a few examples.

    Get rid of Hamas and all other murdering organizations and I believe Israel and other nations could live together.
    if israel would change their policies there would be no hamas.

    the palestinians can not live in peace if israel keeps stealing land and keeping them under apartheid conditions.

    one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and patriot.

    would you fight to keep your land from being stolen?
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • aerial
    aerial Posts: 2,319
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    aerial wrote:
    Any Nation that does not let there people live a free life is a rogue nation. In other words free of dictators, free of mandatory religion, a government free off condoning pedophilia, free of pubic torture, free of condoning zero respect of women, free of condoning death for all Jews or any other religion. That is just a few examples.

    Get rid of Hamas and all other murdering organizations and I believe Israel and other nations could live together.
    if israel would change their policies there would be no hamas.

    the palestinians can not live in peace if israel keeps stealing land and keeping them under apartheid conditions.

    one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and patriot.

    would you fight to keep your land from being stolen?

    Yes I would......but I would never negotiate with terrorist.....
    “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    aerial wrote:
    Any Nation that does not let there people live a free life is a rogue nation. In other words free of dictators, free of mandatory religion, a government free off condoning pedophilia, free of pubic torture, free of condoning zero respect of women, free of condoning death for all Jews or any other religion. That is just a few examples.

    There she goes again: first she claimed that Muslims are sodomites, and now they're pedophiles.

    Care to share with us where you got this information?

    aerial wrote:
    Get rid of Hamas and all other murdering organizations and I believe Israel and other nations could live together.

    Talking of murdering organizations, have you seen what Israel's been doing to it's neighbours these past 60 years?
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    aerial wrote:
    I would never negotiate with terrorist.....

    What's your definition of terrorism?
  • aerial
    aerial Posts: 2,319
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    aerial wrote:
    Any Nation that does not let there people live a free life is a rogue nation. In other words free of dictators, free of mandatory religion, a government free off condoning pedophilia, free of pubic torture, free of condoning zero respect of women, free of condoning death for all Jews or any other religion. That is just a few examples.

    Get rid of Hamas and all other murdering organizations and I believe Israel and other nations could live together.
    if israel would change their policies there would be no hamas.

    the palestinians can not live in peace if israel keeps stealing land and keeping them under apartheid conditions.

    one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and patriot.

    would you fight to keep your land from being stolen?



    Terrorist are NOTHING like freedom fighters or Patriots.
    Freedom Fighters and Patriots are fighting for Freedom.... Terrorist are fighting for submission
    “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    aerial wrote:
    Terrorist are NOTHING like freedom fighters or Patriots.
    Freedom Fighters and Patriots are fighting for Freedom.... Terrorist are fighting for submission

    Link please.
  • aerial
    aerial Posts: 2,319
    edited December 2012
    Byrnzie wrote:
    aerial wrote:
    I would never negotiate with terrorist.....

    What's your definition of terrorism?

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/terrordef.html


    Terrorism is the premeditated and or the deliberate, systematic murder, mayhem, and threats to create fear and intimidation in order to gain a political or tactical advantage, usually to influence an audience.



    Terrorism constitutes the illegitimate use of force to achieve a political objective when innocent people are targeted.

    —Walter Laqueur
    Post edited by aerial on
    “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
  • aerial
    aerial Posts: 2,319
    aerial wrote:
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    aerial wrote:
    Any Nation that does not let there people live a free life is a rogue nation. In other words free of dictators, free of mandatory religion, a government free off condoning pedophilia, free of pubic torture, free of condoning zero respect of women, free of condoning death for all Jews or any other religion. That is just a few examples.

    Get rid of Hamas and all other murdering organizations and I believe Israel and other nations could live together.
    if israel would change their policies there would be no hamas.

    the palestinians can not live in peace if israel keeps stealing land and keeping them under apartheid conditions.

    one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and patriot.

    would you fight to keep your land from being stolen?



    Terrorist are NOTHING like freedom fighters or Patriots.
    Freedom Fighters and Patriots are fighting for Freedom.... Terrorist are fighting for submission

    No link for this just common sense if you stay informed.......Just to be clear I am referring to Islamic Terrorist
    “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln

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