Israel/Gaza

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  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    acutejam wrote:
    I don't put much credence in matters voted upon by the UN General Assembly where most of them do not represent democratically elected governments

    138-9: Yep, sure was a close call!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/no ... ?fb=native
    '...the fact that Israel won the support of just nine countries, including the US, at the UN has caused a degree of alarm inside the Jewish state.

    Israeli officials were shocked at the scale of European support for the Palestinian resolution, with France switching sides and Germany abandoning a pledge to vote against. Among EU nations, only the Czech Republic supported Israel.'


    Apart from Israel and the US, those voting against were Canada, the Czech Republic, the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau and Panama.

    The Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau, all in the pocket of the U.S, but soon to all be under water. What a shame. So the votes against will be reduced to approx 4 the next time the U.N General Assembly casts it's annual vote on the 'Peaceful Settlement of the Question of Palestine', which includes these tenets for achieving a peaceful settlement of the Israel-Palestine conflict: (1) “Affirming the principle of the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war”; (2) “Affirming also the illegality of the Israeli settlements in the territory occupied since 1967 and of Israeli actions aimed at changing the status of Jerusalem”; (3) “Stresses the need for: (a) The realization of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people, primarily the right to self-determination; (b) The withdrawal of Israel from the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967”; (4) “Also stresses the need for resolving the problem of the Palestine refugees in conformity with its resolution 194 (III) of 11 December 1948.”

    Here's a summary of how the vote has played out for the past decade and more:

    1997 [155-2-3] Israel, United States

    2000 [149-2-3] Israel, United States

    2002 [160-4-3] Israel, United States , Marshall Islands, Micronesia

    2005 [156-6-9] Israel, United States , Australia, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Palau

    2007 [161-7-5] Israel, United States , Australia, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau

    2010 [165-7-4] Israel, United States, Australia, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Why does this not surprise me?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/no ... ?fb=native
    'For months, Israeli diplomats worked to persuade EU governments to, at the least, abstain in the hope that the Jewish state would be able to deride a Palestinian victory as delivered by less than democratic regimes.

    Israel's position was supported by [...] Tony Blair, envoy for the Quartet of the US, EU, Russia and the UN, which is attempting to kick-start peace talks.'
  • JC29856
    JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    He likes postiw here....
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    British foreign secretary, William Hague: "I am extremely concerned by reports that the Israeli cabinet plans to approve the building of 3,000 new housing units in illegal settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Israeli settlements are illegal under international law and undermine trust between the parties. If implemented, these plans would alter the situation on the ground on a scale that makes the two-state solution, with Jerusalem as a shared capital, increasingly difficult to achieve.

    They would undermine Israel's international reputation and create doubts about its stated commitment to achieving peace with the Palestinians. The UK strongly advises the Israeli government to reverse this decision. The window for a two-state solution is closing, and we need urgent efforts by the parties and by the international community to achieve a return to negotiations, not actions which will make that harder."


    Meanwhile, one of six Palestinians who were shot by Israeli troops on Friday, while protesting at the Gaza Strip boundary fence died this morning, according to hospital officials. The 21-year-old man had been demonstrating near the southern town of Rafah.



    Seems to me Israel has now been revealed for the dangerous rogue state that it is. Too many people now know the truth about this country, despite it's massive PR campaign and it's blanket support from the U.S. The U.S government's pretence at being an honest broker in this conflict has also now been exposed for the huge sham that it is. I predict a change in U.S policy now in order to prevent any greater embarrassment and isolation on the World stage.
    Israel's days as an international pariah are numbered.
  • the part I bolded in red.......is this believable? that Canada is interested in what's good for both sides?


    Baird said Canada was voting against the initiative because "we are firmly convinced (it) will undermine the objective of reaching a comprehensive, lasting and just settlement for both sides."


    no it is not believeable. its simply an excuse. heres how much the israeli govt wants peace:

    I don't personally understand what my country stands to benefit from taking sides with the Israelis if they weren't sincere in their statements.
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  • I have to say, the majority on this board seem VERY biased against Israel. How can you all say they would have built more settlements had the Palestinians looked for new status or not? Seems a bit presumptuous.
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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    I have to say, the majority on this board seem VERY biased against Israel. How can you all say they would have built more settlements had the Palestinians looked for new status or not? Seems a bit presumptuous.

    precedent hugh. so no it is not any bit presumptuous of us. theyre trying to grab as much territory as they can.. and they will do so in violation of international law. its a big fuck you not only to the palestinians but also to the international community.
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  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    I have to say, the majority on this board seem VERY biased against Israel. How can you all say they would have built more settlements had the Palestinians looked for new status or not? Seems a bit presumptuous.

    Israel's illegal settlement expansion hasn't stopped at any point in the past 45 years. It didn't stop during the Oslo peace accords - in flagrant breach of those agreements (in fact it escalated) - and it hasn't stopped at any time since.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Read it and weep, American tax payers!

    Hilary Clinton: "Americans honor Israel as a homeland dreamed of for generations and finally achieved by pioneering men and women in my lifetime. What threatens Israel threatens America. What strengthens Israel strengthens us."
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    "Just before midnight (Gaza time) Israel broke the ceasefire, firing at least one tank shell into an area of East Deir Al-Balah, Middle Gaza Strip. It injured 4, including 2 critically: one is brain dead; another lost a leg.

    Since the 'ceasefire' was 'effectual', Israel has violated Palestinian airspace, waters, harassed, arrested, shot and killed Gazans. Israel systematically and consistently breaks these ceasefires.

    Will the BBC report Israel's entirely unjustifiable ceasefire-breaking? Why does the world not understand who is the aggressor?"
  • kenny olav
    kenny olav Posts: 3,319
    It is shameful that my nation cannot simply vote to give another nation a seat at the table of nations.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    When people can tell their children that there is more to life than hate and always being right, there just might be a chance for these two sides to get their acts together.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... us-support

    The 'both-sides-are-awful' dismissal of Gaza ignores the key role of the US government

    The temptation to wash one's hands of the whole conflict is understandable, but US support of Israel is a central force driving it all

    Glenn Greenwald
    guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 21 November 2012



    '...For years now, US financial, military and diplomatic support of Israel has been the central enabling force driving this endless conflict. The bombs Israel drops on Gazans, and the planes they use to drop them, and the weapons they use to occupy the West Bank and protect settlements are paid for, in substantial part, by the US taxpayer, and those actions are shielded from recrimination by the UN veto power aggressively wielded in Israel's favor by the US government.

    ...Just consider the actions of the US over the last week as violence in Gaza escalated. On Tuesday, the US vetoed a UN Security Council cease-fire resolution on the ground, in essence, that it was too balanced. The US State Department publicly attacked its Nato ally, Turkey, for condemning Israeli aggression. As always, the US Congress and the US Executive Branch are virtually unanimous in their full-throated, completely one-sided support for Israeli actions.

    ...If one wants to try to wash one's hands of this entire matter by declaring both sides equally culpable, that's fine. But doing so requires an acknowledgment that the US government is doing nothing of the sort. It is fueling, funding and feeding the Israeli war machine, and, with its own militaristic conduct, is legitimizing the premises of Israeli aggression.

    This is exactly what I was referencing when I wrote on Saturday that one must stop pretending that the US is some sort of helpless, uninvolved party in this war between two distant, foreign entities. That is complete fiction. If an American citizen really wants to advocate for neutrality on the ground that both sides are equally horrible and they're sick of the whole conflict and wish it would all just go away, then the place to begin with that advocacy is US government policy which, as unpleasant as it might be to face, has long been, and remains more than ever, a key force that drives the bloodshed.'
  • Drowned Out
    Drowned Out Posts: 6,056
    the part I bolded in red.......is this believable? that Canada is interested in what's good for both sides?
    Baird said Canada was voting against the initiative because "we are firmly convinced (it) will undermine the objective of reaching a comprehensive, lasting and just settlement for both sides.

    The Canadian people are interested in what is best for both sides:
    Globescan for the BBC:
    46% support recognition of a Palestinian state, 6% would abstain, 25% would oppose
    Angus Reid:
    In Canada, 43 per cent of respondents also want their own government to recognize a Palestinian state, while 31 per cent disagree. (Regarding the 2011 Statehood) request from the Palestinian Authority....half of Britons (50%), a slightly smaller proportion of Canadians (45%) and a third of Americans (34%) calling for the world body to support the bid for full statehood.
    If you look at other polls, like the one done by Avaaz last week, they are much more lop-sided....

    Canada's (the Harper) government is interested in what's best for Israel:
    A staunch ally of Israel, he blocked the planned recommendations on Mideast peace talks even though the terms are a key part of U.S. President Barack Obama's campaign to revive negotiations as pro-democracy movements sprout in the Arab world.
    But Mr. Harper said those terms were only part of the position Mr. Obama laid out in a May 19 speech. The Prime Minister said he couldn't accept mention of Israel's 1967 borders unless the G8 also referred to Mr. Obama's calls for Palestinian concessions.
    "You can't cherry pick elements of that speech," Mr. Harper told reporters at the close of the summit.
    "I think if you're going to get into other elements, obviously I would like to see reference to elements that were also in President Obama's speech. Such as, for instance, the fact that one of the states must be a Jewish state. The fact that the Palestinian state must be demilitarized."

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/201 ... state.html



    In counter to the Israeli talking point echoed by the US and amplified by our government: that any lasting peace agreement must be negotiated bilaterally, and the UN statehood bid (in '11) and the bid for observer state status (granted the other day) were unilateral moves by the Palestinians, Dr Norman Finkelstein has argued that the Palestinians want to use as their baseline for peace negotiations and a two-state solution - international law and opinion...ie: the pre-1967 borders. The Israeli's baseline for peace negotiations is arbitrary - they want to begin negotiations with a starting point based on their own terms and borders.
    Harper blocked any mention of the 67 borders in the final communique from the G8 summit in France last year. This week our foreign minister went to the UN specifically to threaten Palestine. Our government's stance is widely considered more in line with Israel than even the US, traditionally Israel's staunchest supporter. As an aside, since I'm mentioning both Finkelstein and our goverment - the Harper Cons, thru immigration minister Jason Kenney, tried to ban Finkelstein from speaking in our country in 2010. And I can see why. The Finkelstein talk I attended at the UofA was a turning point for me on this topic. The fact that our government doesn't want our students hearing the other side shows their (lack of) objectivity.

    Honestly, Hugh....does it sound at all believable to you that our government has the best interests of BOTH sides at heart? I'm happy to see you taking an interest in this topic...I also think it's good that you're being cautious in choosing a side and not easily falling to bias on one side or the other. But you have to ask yourself: with the behaviour of our current government in regards to support for the US, support for the military industrial complex, support for big oil and other groups who benefit from western colonialism - essentially all of the symptoms of neo-con sickness.....do you think you can trust our government to align itself with the moral majority and be an honest broker for peace?..... or to act in the best interests of the people who sign their cheques? You might want to factor the answer to that question into your evolving opinion on the occupation :)
    Our government has once again placed our nation on the wrong side of history.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Told ya! Britain, and no doubt the U.S, will now try and lessen the damage caused in the wake of the landslide vote at the U.N General Assembly in favour of Palestinian statehood, which left them isolated on the World stage.


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012 ... settlement


    UK may recall Israel ambassador over settlement plan

    Foreign Office considers withdrawing diplomats after Israel authorised 3,000 new homes in the wake of UN vote on Palestine

    Harriet Sherwood in Jerusalem
    guardian.co.uk
    Monday 3 December 2012



    Britain is considering tough diplomatic measures, including the possible recall of its ambassador to Tel Aviv, in response to Israel's announcement of settlement expansion. Its move followed the vote by the United Nations general assembly to recognise the Palestinian state.

    The recall of the British ambassador would be a dramatic and unprecedented rebuke to the Israeli government, whose isolation was sharply illustrated by the overwhelming backing for the state of Palestine in New York last week. Only eight countries out of 193 rallied to Israel's side in opposing the move.

    Britain is furious at Israel's decision to take punitive measures, including the authorisation of 3,000 new settler homes and the development of land east of Jerusalem known as E1 for settlement construction.

    The development of E1 has been frozen for years under pressure from the US and EU. Western diplomats regard it as a "game-changer" as its development would close off East Jerusalem – the future capital of Palestine – from the West Bank.

    Britain has demanded that Israel rescind the decision. The UN secretary general, Ban Ki-moon, said the settlement expansion plans "would represent an almost fatal blow to the remaining chances of securing a two-state solution".

    The EU foreign affairs chief, Catherine Ashton, said such expansion "may represent a strategic step undermining the prospects of a contiguous and viable Palestine with Jerusalem as the shared capital of both it and Israel".

    The British Foreign Office has not reached a firm decision on its response, but it is understood to be considering a range of options, including the recall of its ambassador, Matthew Gould, and the consul general, Vincent Fean, for further discussions.

    France is also considering similar action. Britain would be more inclined to forge ahead with such a dramatic diplomatic rebuke in co-ordination with other EU countries.

    Other steps under consideration are sanctions against settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, including tougher measures on the labelling of settlement produce exported to Europe, and the suspension of strategic dialogue meetings.

    The UK and other EU countries had warned Israel against taking punitive action in response to the UN vote. A statement issued by the British embassy in Tel Aviv said: "The foreign secretary has consistently made it very clear that the UK would not support a strong reaction to Thursday's UNGA resolution that undermined the prospects for negotiations and efforts to build a strong foundation for the peace process. The recent Israeli government decision to build 3,000 new housing units threatens the two-state solution and makes progress through negotiations harder to achieve. We have called on the Israeli government to reconsider."

    The Israeli cabinet unanimously rejected the UN vote at its weekly meeting on Sunday. It described the West Bank as "disputed territory" over which the Jewish people had "a natural right".

    Israel's Channel 2 reported that Rahm Emanuel, President Obama's former chief of staff, had described the behaviour of the prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, as "unfathomable".
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Honestly, Hugh....does it sound at all believable to you that our government has the best interests of BOTH sides at heart? I'm happy to see you taking an interest in this topic...I also think it's good that you're being cautious in choosing a side and not easily falling to bias on one side or the other. But you have to ask yourself: with the behaviour of our current government in regards to support for the US, support for the military industrial complex, support for big oil and other groups who benefit from western colonialism - essentially all of the symptoms of neo-con sickness.....do you think you can trust our government to align itself with the moral majority and be an honest broker for peace?..... or to act in the best interests of the people who sign their cheques? You might want to factor the answer to that question into your evolving opinion on the occupation :)
    Our government has once again placed our nation on the wrong side of history.

    yes ... i would have said it much more poorly ... hahaha ...
  • .....do you think you can trust our government to align itself with the moral majority and be an honest broker for peace?..... or to act in the best interests of the people who sign their cheques? You might want to factor the answer to that question into your evolving opinion on the occupation :)

    to ask another silly question.......who is "signing our cheques", and for what? I still don't understand Canada's interest in keeping Israel in charge over there. Just to keep in line with what the US wants? Because we didn't join them when they wanted our help in Iraq.
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  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,055
    if france and GB are so upset with israel, why are they not pushing for sanctions against israel? the latest actions by israel with expanding settlements and blatantly breaking the cease fire on multiple occasions are the actions of a rogue nation, and as such, sanctions should be applied. their actions are simply to punish the palestinian people for the actions of the rest of the un, and that is completely defying the un general assembly.

    the us and gb are on the wrong side of this issue. unfortunately history will prove us wrong and we will be reviled in the same way that pope pius is reviled for doing nothing about the holocaust...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • .....do you think you can trust our government to align itself with the moral majority and be an honest broker for peace?..... or to act in the best interests of the people who sign their cheques? You might want to factor the answer to that question into your evolving opinion on the occupation :)

    to ask another silly question.......who is "signing our cheques", and for what? I still don't understand Canada's interest in keeping Israel in charge over there. Just to keep in line with what the US wants? Because we didn't join them when they wanted our help in Iraq.

    Hugh, you are asking great questions. Don't hope to get honest answers here. But, when something quacks like a duck, it's usually a duck. If you think something doesn't make sense, it probably doesn't (and vice versa). Biased answers can't get to the point of your valid queries. Keep asking, but look elsewhere for your answers.

    Many here think the US, Canada, etc. support Israel blindly. But, your questions are spot on - Even if this is true, why? Perhaps, because it's really not so blindly and they see BOTH sides and have made a moral decision to do what is best even if there are those that think the easy path is right.

    The fact is if Israel gave the Palestinians exactly what they wanted (other than dying which is their REAL desire), there would still not be peace for Israel.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,055
    The fact is if Israel gave the Palestinians exactly what they wanted (other than dying which is their REAL desire), there would still not be peace for Israel.
    this is the most ill informed answer i have ever read.

    not all palestinians want israelis dead. you know that is not the case, so please stop spouting bullshit.

    also, it is outrageous to arbitrarily claim that there would not be peace even if israel gave the palestinians what they wanted. how do you know? you don't.

    how about israel start abiding by international law and stop punishing the palestinian civilians simply because the UN dealt the zionists a setback?

    it must really sting israel to see that less than 15 countries at the UN support their position on this issue. and if it were not for the US supporting israel they would have had even less support.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,381
    Wheres the OP to respond to recent events?
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