Women in Combat positions

2

Comments

  • Austicman
    Austicman Posts: 1,328
    catefrances wrote:

    i recently applied for a position with the australian army in an administrative capacity. they rang me and asked was i aware that weapons training was involved? i admitted that it never crossed my mind. i was assured that i wasnt the only one to whom that wasnt apparent. though i admitted now it was mentioned it did make some sorta sense to me. i was asked was weapons training something i was willing to undertake. i said no and was thanked for my time. so i think yeah even if joining the armed forces wasnt originally what you wanted to be involved in when you 'grew up', if the thought of joining the armed forces has crossed your mind and you view it as a secure job the only thing missing is the will to do the job.and if you have that then why not. obviously i have no desire to handle firearms if it can be avoided and tbh the last thing you want is a weapon in my hands. ;)8-)

    Women still can't serve in the front line infantry in Australia. They can serve just about anywhere else and I don't think it will be too before they can.
    I can't go the library anymore, everyone STINKS!!
  • MotoDC
    MotoDC Posts: 947
    As long as physical standards aren't lowered, it seems fine in principle. I'd like to hear the opinions of a few veterans though; not sure we have any on this board?
  • DS1119
    DS1119 Posts: 33,497
    MotoDC wrote:
    As long as physical standards aren't lowered, it seems fine in principle. I'd like to hear the opinions of a few veterans though; not sure we have any on this board?


    I can't speak for myself on this point as I have never served but my father who served two tours in Vietnam with the Marines opposed this idea. Not from the stand point that woman couldn't do the required work (and actually supported the idea if women were separate from men) but always went back to the comradery issue. His group were guys he slept with, ate with, pissed in front of, shit in front of, etc. He used to liken it to sports where boys and girls play together] but he would mention there were separate locker rooms, separate bathrooms, etc...all of which do not exist in war. War is no place to have to worry about "boundaries" between the sexes.
  • MotoDC
    MotoDC Posts: 947
    DS1119 wrote:
    MotoDC wrote:
    As long as physical standards aren't lowered, it seems fine in principle. I'd like to hear the opinions of a few veterans though; not sure we have any on this board?


    I can't speak for myself on this point as I have never served but my father who served two tours in Vietnam with the Marines opposed this idea. Not from the stand point that woman couldn't do the required work (and actually supported the idea if women were separate from men) but always went back to the comradery issue. His group were guys he slept with, ate with, pissed in front of, shit in front of, etc. He used to liken it to sports where boys and girls play together] but he would mention there were separate locker rooms, separate bathrooms, etc...all of which do not exist in war. War is no place to have to worry about "boundaries" between the sexes.
    This is more or less the POV I was imagining, but didn't want to speak to it, having less personal combat experience that my housecat (dude is a hunter, so badass. anyhow.). What you implied would be interesting -- keeping them separate. Entire battalions of female soldiers. I guess that's a bit to "segregationy" to fly, but it's an odd visual image -- platoons of all women marching toward an enemy through a rice paddy (sorry, I've seen too many vietnam war movies).
  • peacefrompaul
    peacefrompaul Posts: 25,293
    My dad served 22 years and is against women in combat. He said that some of the sharpest people he worked with in the Air Force Space Command were the women, however...
  • blackredyellow
    blackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    DS1119 wrote:
    MotoDC wrote:
    As long as physical standards aren't lowered, it seems fine in principle. I'd like to hear the opinions of a few veterans though; not sure we have any on this board?


    I can't speak for myself on this point as I have never served but my father who served two tours in Vietnam with the Marines opposed this idea. Not from the stand point that woman couldn't do the required work (and actually supported the idea if women were separate from men) but always went back to the comradery issue. His group were guys he slept with, ate with, pissed in front of, shit in front of, etc. He used to liken it to sports where boys and girls play together] but he would mention there were separate locker rooms, separate bathrooms, etc...all of which do not exist in war. War is no place to have to worry about "boundaries" between the sexes.

    I think there is something to be said for that... I also think that there might be some issue with some guys carrying out their duties fully. A lot of time we are talking about teenagers or very young adults. Hell, as General Patraeus showed us, even smart, mature guys think with their dick sometimes, it wouldn't be unreasonable for a 19 year old guy to maybe get distracted for a minute, making sure a female soldier that he sorta likes is safe, when his focus should be on whatever task is at hand.

    I support the idea, but there are some reservations as well. I'm glad that I don't have to make the decision :)
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • Who Princess
    Who Princess out here in the fields Posts: 7,305
    :roll:

    You guys sound straight out of the Dark Ages. :lol:

    No offense, but until a combat veteran posts in this thread about their own experiences, I will take the comments of somebody's dad or uncle or neighbor who fought in Vietnam 40+ years ago with numerous grains of salt.

    Many of the arguments raised were also brought up when the armed forces were racially integrated and more recently with allowing gays to serve openly. The argument about "where will they shower" that always comes up kinda makes me laugh. Like taking showers is a big part of military service.

    And the sexual temptation suggestion. . . . I'm sure women look really hot wearing camo and kevlar while carrying a 50 lb. pack, but if somebody wants to get laid, aren't they going to take advantage of any opportunity that presents itself, whether it's a willing comrade or the local whorehouse?

    I tend to think that in combat, your biggest concern is that your buddies around you can do their job and are looking out for you. Something tells me that when the bullets are flying you won't be terribly concerned about the other person's race, sexual orientation, or gender.
    "The stars are all connected to the brain."
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    peacefrompaul wrote:
    My dad served 22 years and is against women in combat. He said that some of the sharpest people he worked with in the Air Force Space Command were the women, however...


    and maybe thats where the strength lies. women are killer organisers imho. we know how to get mutiple things done cause for a great many of us this is our daily lives. we are the brains and men are the brawn. i have zero problem with this. ;)8-)
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • drinkbigredinstead
    drinkbigredinstead Posts: 2,240
    A woman should be allowed to fight if she wants too. That being said I don't think we are ready for this. Not women, but the men.

    What gentleman would not be distracted by a woman fighting along side him that reminds him of his daughter,mother,wife or girlfriend he hasn't seen in months or maybe a year??? Do you think he would be able to focus or would he always have an eye on her? Would he make a tactical mistake to help a woman? Would he be able to handle seeing a woman who resembles someone he loves taken captive, tortured, killed or raped in front of him?

    War is fought with much more than guns.
  • DS1119
    DS1119 Posts: 33,497
    Who Princess wrote:
    :roll:



    No offense, but until a combat veteran posts in this thread about their own experiences, I will take the comments of somebody's dad or uncle or neighbor who fought in Vietnam 40+ years ago with numerous grains of salt.


    And I guess until you fight in a combat situation I will take your comments with a grain of salt.
  • Who Princess
    Who Princess out here in the fields Posts: 7,305
    DS1119 wrote:
    Who Princess wrote:
    :roll:



    No offense, but until a combat veteran posts in this thread about their own experiences, I will take the comments of somebody's dad or uncle or neighbor who fought in Vietnam 40+ years ago with numerous grains of salt.


    And I guess until you fight in a combat situation I will take your comments with a grain of salt.
    And I can do the same for you, I guess. ;)

    Vietnam and the draft were still around when I was a teenager. Many of my peers are vets. I knew many Vietnam vets in college and even dated a guy who was medic in Vietnam. I have nothing but respect for the men (and women) who served in Vietnam. But the armed forces today have changed in many ways, good and bad, since then. For current issues like this one, I'd rather hear the perspective of veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, or even the Gulf War.

    I was OK with women being drafted in the 60s and 70s (even for myself) and I'm even more supportive of women who choose to serve today. It's more than most people are willing to do.
    "The stars are all connected to the brain."
  • DS1119
    DS1119 Posts: 33,497
    Who Princess wrote:
    DS1119 wrote:
    Who Princess wrote:
    :roll:



    No offense, but until a combat veteran posts in this thread about their own experiences, I will take the comments of somebody's dad or uncle or neighbor who fought in Vietnam 40+ years ago with numerous grains of salt.


    And I guess until you fight in a combat situation I will take your comments with a grain of salt.
    And I can do the same for you, I guess. ;)

    Vietnam and the draft were still around when I was a teenager. Many of my peers are vets. I knew many Vietnam vets in college and even dated a guy who was medic in Vietnam. I have nothing but respect for the men (and women) who served in Vietnam. But the armed forces today have changed in many ways, good and bad, since then. For current issues like this one, I'd rather hear the perspective of veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, or even the Gulf War.

    I was OK with women being drafted in the 60s and 70s (even for myself) and I'm even more supportive of women who choose to serve today. It's more than most people are willing to do.


    I'll still take my grandfather's and father's perspective. My Granddad served in WWII and the Korean Conflict and my dad served in the Vietnam Conflict. War is no place for mixed genders on the front line. You can type in response until your heart is content and you will never change my mind as well.
  • Who Princess
    Who Princess out here in the fields Posts: 7,305
    I'm hardly interested in changing your mind. I thought the point of the thread was to discuss the issue.

    I did want to point out that more than one person gave stereotypical responses that are similar to those used as arguments against other changes in the military, changes that were made successfully. And I wanted to clarify that I have nothing but respect for combat veterans, many of whom are my family members and friends.

    But if the military is going to rely on cliches to deny women opportunities, well, I'm just glad other institutions have evolved and changed. Otherwise, women wouldn't have the right to vote, to be released from a bad marriage or have custody of their children, obtain higher education, or pursue a number of careers that were traditionally closed off to them.
    "The stars are all connected to the brain."
  • DS1119
    DS1119 Posts: 33,497
    Who Princess wrote:
    I'm hardly interested in changing your mind. I thought the point of the thread was to discuss the issue.

    I did want to point out that more than one person gave stereotypical responses that are similar to those used as arguments against other changes in the military, changes that were made successfully. And I wanted to clarify that I have nothing but respect for combat veterans, many of whom are my family members and friends.

    But if the military is going to rely on cliches to deny women opportunities, well, I'm just glad other institutions have evolved and changed. Otherwise, women wouldn't have the right to vote, to be released from a bad marriage or have custody of their children, obtain higher education, or pursue a number of careers that were traditionally closed off to them.

    Denying them any opputunities? If a woman wants to fight and/or get blown up more power to them. Just put the women in their own separate groups. A lot of people assume this a male issue...a guy looking at a girl...a guy feeling sympathetic towards a woman...the same can be said about any woman that can be said about a man and if a woman disagrees with that I would say that's steroetypical. When you are sitting in a trench, or a jungle, or a desert....the front lines are the last place to worry about ANY gender issues. Whether it's taking a shit, piss, or just talking about the opposite sex to pass the time.
  • Who Princess
    Who Princess out here in the fields Posts: 7,305
    DS1119 wrote:
    Denying them any opputunities? If a woman wants to fight and/or get blown up more power to them. Just put the women in their own separate groups. A lot of people assume this a male issue...a guy looking at a girl...a guy feeling sympathetic towards a woman...the same can be said about any woman that can be said about a man and if a woman disagrees with that I would say that's steroetypical. When you are sitting in a trench, or a jungle, or a desert....the front lines are the last place to worry about ANY gender issues. Whether it's taking a shit, piss, or just talking about the opposite sex to pass the time.
    An all female unit. They could be called the Amazon Regiment. :lol:

    There used to be all-black units. During WWII, there were units of just Japanese-Americans. Supposedly other Americans wouldn't be able to fight alongside them. Which turned out to be wrong and thankfully we don't do that anymore.

    You may have missed the part in the article the OP quoted where some of the women say that some career options aren't open to them because they can't have combat duty. The army wasn't my career choice but if someone really likes that life and wants to make a career of it, I'm sure they'd like to advance in it as much as they're able to.

    While I appreciate what some people have said about how men in combat might be overly concerned about female comrades that remind them of their wives, sisters, moms--isn't there a good chance that their male buddies would remind them of their brother, best friend, or dad? A friend of mine who's a Gulf War veteran told me that the main reason you fight is for the buddy beside you.
    "The stars are all connected to the brain."
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    imo war is a great big giant jerk off.. and THAT sounds to me like guys stuff. sexist? maybe. but no matter how enlightened or feminist you want to be, we live in a mans world. there is no getting around that and for women to compete we must theoretically become men. its like that whole if we want to compete with men , we must become like them.... well to that i say BULLSHIT. to compete with men, if that is in fact what we really want to do, we must remain ourselves. we need to be exposed to 'the other side' .. afterall we are a product of both our mother and our father.... therefore it is not beyond the realm of possibility that as humans we make decisions and have thought patterns that are more reflective of our female side than our male side.. and we ignore that at our peril.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • moretonbayfig
    moretonbayfig Australia Posts: 805
    edited January 2013
    .
    Post edited by moretonbayfig on
  • DS1119
    DS1119 Posts: 33,497
    Who Princess wrote:
    DS1119 wrote:
    Denying them any opputunities? If a woman wants to fight and/or get blown up more power to them. Just put the women in their own separate groups. A lot of people assume this a male issue...a guy looking at a girl...a guy feeling sympathetic towards a woman...the same can be said about any woman that can be said about a man and if a woman disagrees with that I would say that's steroetypical. When you are sitting in a trench, or a jungle, or a desert....the front lines are the last place to worry about ANY gender issues. Whether it's taking a shit, piss, or just talking about the opposite sex to pass the time.
    An all female unit. They could be called the Amazon Regiment. :lol:

    There used to be all-black units. During WWII, there were units of just Japanese-Americans. Supposedly other Americans wouldn't be able to fight alongside them. Which turned out to be wrong and thankfully we don't do that anymore.

    You may have missed the part in the article the OP quoted where some of the women say that some career options aren't open to them because they can't have combat duty. The army wasn't my career choice but if someone really likes that life and wants to make a career of it, I'm sure they'd like to advance in it as much as they're able to.

    While I appreciate what some people have said about how men in combat might be overly concerned about female comrades that remind them of their wives, sisters, moms--isn't there a good chance that their male buddies would remind them of their brother, best friend, or dad? A friend of mine who's a Gulf War veteran told me that the main reason you fight is for the buddy beside you.


    Unfortunately as a male I can't be a mother. I guess that career path is closed to me. Some things are just the way they are.

    Yes lets change the way the military works in this country for the sake of a few. Let's weaken the military for the sake of a few. Makes perfect sense when usually the same people who bitch about the military and what they do are the same people who bitch about wanting to include women on the front lines? Makes perfect sense.
  • Dirtie_Frank
    Dirtie_Frank Posts: 1,348
    I started the topic and I am a Veteran, served in Iraq as a soldier, and Afghanistan as a DoD civilian. The women I served with were very honorable women, they served there country with pride and dignity. Now with that being said I think maybe less then 1 percent would be able to comply with combat arms standards. There has already been women that have failed Marine Officer Infantry School.

    http://www.military.com/daily-news/2012 ... ourse.html

    Like I said earlier if the standards are not lowered then yes, but there are a lot of other issues that would go with this. If you think showers and bathrooms are not a big deal, then you are wrong. There was always an issue with shower times with women.
    96 Randall's Island II
    98 CAA
    00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
    05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
    06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
    08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
    09 Phillie III
    10 MSG II
    13 Wrigley Field
    16 Phillie II
  • Who Princess
    Who Princess out here in the fields Posts: 7,305
    Dirtie_Frank wrote:
    I started the topic and I am a Veteran, served in Iraq as a soldier, and Afghanistan as a DoD civilian. The women I served with were very honorable women, they served there country with pride and dignity. Now with that being said I think maybe less then 1 percent would be able to comply with combat arms standards. There has already been women that have failed Marine Officer Infantry School.

    http://www.military.com/daily-news/2012 ... ourse.html

    Like I said earlier if the standards are not lowered then yes, but there are a lot of other issues that would go with this. If you think showers and bathrooms are not a big deal, then you are wrong. There was always an issue with shower times with women.
    No, I wouldn't want to see standards lowered either. It always annoys me when people make accusations that someone was only able to get a position, in any field, because standards were lowered.

    I am a pacifist. I have never had an interest in a career in the military. But as I said earlier, I have many friends and family members who are vets and I have tremendous admiration for them. They've done what I could never do. I've also known many people who made a career in the armed forces. For a long time, the military has offered many in this country an opportunity to better their circumstances and I'm sure that's part of the reason these women want to serve.

    And I don't doubt the shower issue is important. But other professions (police, firefighters) have found a way to work those things out. I'd venture to say that if the military commits to it they will also find a way.
    "The stars are all connected to the brain."

Categories