No offense, but until a combat veteran posts in this thread about their own experiences, I will take the comments of somebody's dad or uncle or neighbor who fought in Vietnam 40+ years ago with numerous grains of salt.
And I guess until you fight in a combat situation I will take your comments with a grain of salt.
And I can do the same for you, I guess.
Vietnam and the draft were still around when I was a teenager. Many of my peers are vets. I knew many Vietnam vets in college and even dated a guy who was medic in Vietnam. I have nothing but respect for the men (and women) who served in Vietnam. But the armed forces today have changed in many ways, good and bad, since then. For current issues like this one, I'd rather hear the perspective of veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, or even the Gulf War.
I was OK with women being drafted in the 60s and 70s (even for myself) and I'm even more supportive of women who choose to serve today. It's more than most people are willing to do.
No offense, but until a combat veteran posts in this thread about their own experiences, I will take the comments of somebody's dad or uncle or neighbor who fought in Vietnam 40+ years ago with numerous grains of salt.
And I guess until you fight in a combat situation I will take your comments with a grain of salt.
And I can do the same for you, I guess.
Vietnam and the draft were still around when I was a teenager. Many of my peers are vets. I knew many Vietnam vets in college and even dated a guy who was medic in Vietnam. I have nothing but respect for the men (and women) who served in Vietnam. But the armed forces today have changed in many ways, good and bad, since then. For current issues like this one, I'd rather hear the perspective of veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, or even the Gulf War.
I was OK with women being drafted in the 60s and 70s (even for myself) and I'm even more supportive of women who choose to serve today. It's more than most people are willing to do.
I'll still take my grandfather's and father's perspective. My Granddad served in WWII and the Korean Conflict and my dad served in the Vietnam Conflict. War is no place for mixed genders on the front line. You can type in response until your heart is content and you will never change my mind as well.
I'm hardly interested in changing your mind. I thought the point of the thread was to discuss the issue.
I did want to point out that more than one person gave stereotypical responses that are similar to those used as arguments against other changes in the military, changes that were made successfully. And I wanted to clarify that I have nothing but respect for combat veterans, many of whom are my family members and friends.
But if the military is going to rely on cliches to deny women opportunities, well, I'm just glad other institutions have evolved and changed. Otherwise, women wouldn't have the right to vote, to be released from a bad marriage or have custody of their children, obtain higher education, or pursue a number of careers that were traditionally closed off to them.
I'm hardly interested in changing your mind. I thought the point of the thread was to discuss the issue.
I did want to point out that more than one person gave stereotypical responses that are similar to those used as arguments against other changes in the military, changes that were made successfully. And I wanted to clarify that I have nothing but respect for combat veterans, many of whom are my family members and friends.
But if the military is going to rely on cliches to deny women opportunities, well, I'm just glad other institutions have evolved and changed. Otherwise, women wouldn't have the right to vote, to be released from a bad marriage or have custody of their children, obtain higher education, or pursue a number of careers that were traditionally closed off to them.
Denying them any opputunities? If a woman wants to fight and/or get blown up more power to them. Just put the women in their own separate groups. A lot of people assume this a male issue...a guy looking at a girl...a guy feeling sympathetic towards a woman...the same can be said about any woman that can be said about a man and if a woman disagrees with that I would say that's steroetypical. When you are sitting in a trench, or a jungle, or a desert....the front lines are the last place to worry about ANY gender issues. Whether it's taking a shit, piss, or just talking about the opposite sex to pass the time.
Denying them any opputunities? If a woman wants to fight and/or get blown up more power to them. Just put the women in their own separate groups. A lot of people assume this a male issue...a guy looking at a girl...a guy feeling sympathetic towards a woman...the same can be said about any woman that can be said about a man and if a woman disagrees with that I would say that's steroetypical. When you are sitting in a trench, or a jungle, or a desert....the front lines are the last place to worry about ANY gender issues. Whether it's taking a shit, piss, or just talking about the opposite sex to pass the time.
An all female unit. They could be called the Amazon Regiment.
There used to be all-black units. During WWII, there were units of just Japanese-Americans. Supposedly other Americans wouldn't be able to fight alongside them. Which turned out to be wrong and thankfully we don't do that anymore.
You may have missed the part in the article the OP quoted where some of the women say that some career options aren't open to them because they can't have combat duty. The army wasn't my career choice but if someone really likes that life and wants to make a career of it, I'm sure they'd like to advance in it as much as they're able to.
While I appreciate what some people have said about how men in combat might be overly concerned about female comrades that remind them of their wives, sisters, moms--isn't there a good chance that their male buddies would remind them of their brother, best friend, or dad? A friend of mine who's a Gulf War veteran told me that the main reason you fight is for the buddy beside you.
imo war is a great big giant jerk off.. and THAT sounds to me like guys stuff. sexist? maybe. but no matter how enlightened or feminist you want to be, we live in a mans world. there is no getting around that and for women to compete we must theoretically become men. its like that whole if we want to compete with men , we must become like them.... well to that i say BULLSHIT. to compete with men, if that is in fact what we really want to do, we must remain ourselves. we need to be exposed to 'the other side' .. afterall we are a product of both our mother and our father.... therefore it is not beyond the realm of possibility that as humans we make decisions and have thought patterns that are more reflective of our female side than our male side.. and we ignore that at our peril.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Denying them any opputunities? If a woman wants to fight and/or get blown up more power to them. Just put the women in their own separate groups. A lot of people assume this a male issue...a guy looking at a girl...a guy feeling sympathetic towards a woman...the same can be said about any woman that can be said about a man and if a woman disagrees with that I would say that's steroetypical. When you are sitting in a trench, or a jungle, or a desert....the front lines are the last place to worry about ANY gender issues. Whether it's taking a shit, piss, or just talking about the opposite sex to pass the time.
An all female unit. They could be called the Amazon Regiment.
There used to be all-black units. During WWII, there were units of just Japanese-Americans. Supposedly other Americans wouldn't be able to fight alongside them. Which turned out to be wrong and thankfully we don't do that anymore.
You may have missed the part in the article the OP quoted where some of the women say that some career options aren't open to them because they can't have combat duty. The army wasn't my career choice but if someone really likes that life and wants to make a career of it, I'm sure they'd like to advance in it as much as they're able to.
While I appreciate what some people have said about how men in combat might be overly concerned about female comrades that remind them of their wives, sisters, moms--isn't there a good chance that their male buddies would remind them of their brother, best friend, or dad? A friend of mine who's a Gulf War veteran told me that the main reason you fight is for the buddy beside you.
Unfortunately as a male I can't be a mother. I guess that career path is closed to me. Some things are just the way they are.
Yes lets change the way the military works in this country for the sake of a few. Let's weaken the military for the sake of a few. Makes perfect sense when usually the same people who bitch about the military and what they do are the same people who bitch about wanting to include women on the front lines? Makes perfect sense.
I started the topic and I am a Veteran, served in Iraq as a soldier, and Afghanistan as a DoD civilian. The women I served with were very honorable women, they served there country with pride and dignity. Now with that being said I think maybe less then 1 percent would be able to comply with combat arms standards. There has already been women that have failed Marine Officer Infantry School.
Like I said earlier if the standards are not lowered then yes, but there are a lot of other issues that would go with this. If you think showers and bathrooms are not a big deal, then you are wrong. There was always an issue with shower times with women.
96 Randall's Island II
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
I started the topic and I am a Veteran, served in Iraq as a soldier, and Afghanistan as a DoD civilian. The women I served with were very honorable women, they served there country with pride and dignity. Now with that being said I think maybe less then 1 percent would be able to comply with combat arms standards. There has already been women that have failed Marine Officer Infantry School.
Like I said earlier if the standards are not lowered then yes, but there are a lot of other issues that would go with this. If you think showers and bathrooms are not a big deal, then you are wrong. There was always an issue with shower times with women.
No, I wouldn't want to see standards lowered either. It always annoys me when people make accusations that someone was only able to get a position, in any field, because standards were lowered.
I am a pacifist. I have never had an interest in a career in the military. But as I said earlier, I have many friends and family members who are vets and I have tremendous admiration for them. They've done what I could never do. I've also known many people who made a career in the armed forces. For a long time, the military has offered many in this country an opportunity to better their circumstances and I'm sure that's part of the reason these women want to serve.
And I don't doubt the shower issue is important. But other professions (police, firefighters) have found a way to work those things out. I'd venture to say that if the military commits to it they will also find a way.
And I don't doubt the shower issue is important. But other professions (police, firefighters) have found a way to work those things out. I'd venture to say that if the military commits to it they will also find a way.
Policemen and firefighters as risky as their jobs are not eactly living in wartime conditions or on the front lines. Apples and oranges. That's like saying well a girl can play high school football so lets stick her in a battalion out in the middle of the desert with 99 other guys for 3 months at a time. :?
men thinks we are still at 1960....but we arent...
men need to wake up...
women arent like our moms at 70's that almost always keep their mouth shout and do what the master of the family said..
woman now are pilots at f-18 fighters and with a button can blow your shit away..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
men thinks we are still at 1960....but we arent...
men need to wake up...
women arent like our moms at 70's that almost always keep their mouth shout and do what the master of the family said..
woman now are pilots at f-18 fighters and with a button can blow your shit away..
...And as long as they pass the standards fine. As far as sharing front line duty with men I'm still very much opposed unless they are given their separate groups. Just my opinion and seems to be the opinion of the military personnel in general.
i've saw pictures of women warriors from other parts of the world too, and let me say, they were beautiful. holy smokes... please arrest me! i'll sit there and be interigated by those womans all day. in a matter of moments we'll be sipping tea & discussing how bad men are. they'll believe i am lesbian or something.
i've saw pictures of women warriors from other parts of the world too, and let me say, they were beautiful. holy smokes... please arrest me! i'll sit there and be interigated by those womans all day. in a matter of moments we'll be sipping tea & discussing how bad men are. they'll believe i am lesbian or something.
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Denying them any opputunities? If a woman wants to fight and/or get blown up more power to them. Just put the women in their own separate groups. A lot of people assume this a male issue...a guy looking at a girl...a guy feeling sympathetic towards a woman...the same can be said about any woman that can be said about a man and if a woman disagrees with that I would say that's steroetypical. When you are sitting in a trench, or a jungle, or a desert....the front lines are the last place to worry about ANY gender issues. Whether it's taking a shit, piss, or just talking about the opposite sex to pass the time.
An all female unit. They could be called the Amazon Regiment.
There used to be all-black units. During WWII, there were units of just Japanese-Americans. Supposedly other Americans wouldn't be able to fight alongside them. Which turned out to be wrong and thankfully we don't do that anymore.
You may have missed the part in the article the OP quoted where some of the women say that some career options aren't open to them because they can't have combat duty. The army wasn't my career choice but if someone really likes that life and wants to make a career of it, I'm sure they'd like to advance in it as much as they're able to.
While I appreciate what some people have said about how men in combat might be overly concerned about female comrades that remind them of their wives, sisters, moms--isn't there a good chance that their male buddies would remind them of their brother, best friend, or dad? A friend of mine who's a Gulf War veteran told me that the main reason you fight is for the buddy beside you.
You put forth some good points, but are you honestly suggesting that the male-female dynamic is no different than the male-male dynamic? 1000s of years of evolution would suggest otherwise. Hard to program that out in the course of 50 years (I chose that timeframe since you're drawing such a distinction between the wars of our grandfathers and those of today, but the specific timeframe largely irrelevant).
Comments
Vietnam and the draft were still around when I was a teenager. Many of my peers are vets. I knew many Vietnam vets in college and even dated a guy who was medic in Vietnam. I have nothing but respect for the men (and women) who served in Vietnam. But the armed forces today have changed in many ways, good and bad, since then. For current issues like this one, I'd rather hear the perspective of veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, or even the Gulf War.
I was OK with women being drafted in the 60s and 70s (even for myself) and I'm even more supportive of women who choose to serve today. It's more than most people are willing to do.
I'll still take my grandfather's and father's perspective. My Granddad served in WWII and the Korean Conflict and my dad served in the Vietnam Conflict. War is no place for mixed genders on the front line. You can type in response until your heart is content and you will never change my mind as well.
I did want to point out that more than one person gave stereotypical responses that are similar to those used as arguments against other changes in the military, changes that were made successfully. And I wanted to clarify that I have nothing but respect for combat veterans, many of whom are my family members and friends.
But if the military is going to rely on cliches to deny women opportunities, well, I'm just glad other institutions have evolved and changed. Otherwise, women wouldn't have the right to vote, to be released from a bad marriage or have custody of their children, obtain higher education, or pursue a number of careers that were traditionally closed off to them.
Denying them any opputunities? If a woman wants to fight and/or get blown up more power to them. Just put the women in their own separate groups. A lot of people assume this a male issue...a guy looking at a girl...a guy feeling sympathetic towards a woman...the same can be said about any woman that can be said about a man and if a woman disagrees with that I would say that's steroetypical. When you are sitting in a trench, or a jungle, or a desert....the front lines are the last place to worry about ANY gender issues. Whether it's taking a shit, piss, or just talking about the opposite sex to pass the time.
There used to be all-black units. During WWII, there were units of just Japanese-Americans. Supposedly other Americans wouldn't be able to fight alongside them. Which turned out to be wrong and thankfully we don't do that anymore.
You may have missed the part in the article the OP quoted where some of the women say that some career options aren't open to them because they can't have combat duty. The army wasn't my career choice but if someone really likes that life and wants to make a career of it, I'm sure they'd like to advance in it as much as they're able to.
While I appreciate what some people have said about how men in combat might be overly concerned about female comrades that remind them of their wives, sisters, moms--isn't there a good chance that their male buddies would remind them of their brother, best friend, or dad? A friend of mine who's a Gulf War veteran told me that the main reason you fight is for the buddy beside you.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Unfortunately as a male I can't be a mother. I guess that career path is closed to me. Some things are just the way they are.
Yes lets change the way the military works in this country for the sake of a few. Let's weaken the military for the sake of a few. Makes perfect sense when usually the same people who bitch about the military and what they do are the same people who bitch about wanting to include women on the front lines? Makes perfect sense.
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2012 ... ourse.html
Like I said earlier if the standards are not lowered then yes, but there are a lot of other issues that would go with this. If you think showers and bathrooms are not a big deal, then you are wrong. There was always an issue with shower times with women.
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
I am a pacifist. I have never had an interest in a career in the military. But as I said earlier, I have many friends and family members who are vets and I have tremendous admiration for them. They've done what I could never do. I've also known many people who made a career in the armed forces. For a long time, the military has offered many in this country an opportunity to better their circumstances and I'm sure that's part of the reason these women want to serve.
And I don't doubt the shower issue is important. But other professions (police, firefighters) have found a way to work those things out. I'd venture to say that if the military commits to it they will also find a way.
Policemen and firefighters as risky as their jobs are not eactly living in wartime conditions or on the front lines. Apples and oranges. That's like saying well a girl can play high school football so lets stick her in a battalion out in the middle of the desert with 99 other guys for 3 months at a time. :?
men thinks we are still at 1960....but we arent...
men need to wake up...
women arent like our moms at 70's that almost always keep their mouth shout and do what the master of the family said..
woman now are pilots at f-18 fighters and with a button can blow your shit away..
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
...And as long as they pass the standards fine. As far as sharing front line duty with men I'm still very much opposed unless they are given their separate groups. Just my opinion and seems to be the opinion of the military personnel in general.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”