"Remember the Ladies..."

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  • rival.
    rival. Chicago Posts: 7,775
    fortyshades wrote:
    rival. wrote:
    TribeintoBreath wrote:
    Play Leash, you pussies

    5.3.03

    *july 9th, 2003.


    "you know... there are fucking children here. you fucking cock sucking, mother fucker, asshole prick!"

    one of my favorite eddie tangents.

    I wasn't at the show. And he is saying this because? And this is related to this topic in what way? (This topic was about degrading words towards woman in art, not about swear words; some wanted to make this thread about this, but this was not what this thread was about.) I believe there is another thread on that one somewhere; a concerned father I believe ;) . Seriously though, I wasn't at the show, somebody must have pissed him off... And I believe Ed sweared in Amsterdam too, and his whole family was there... To paraphrase Twain: "If you can't say it, swear". Or something like that. Swearing can have a function - but that is a diff discussion all together...

    Going to catch up on my reading now on WW II, which I know nothing off (supposedly), even though my whole country was bombed and people on my fathers side severely traumatized during the German occupation.

    i was just referencing what ed said as a follow up to spotting a 'play leash you pussies' sign in the crowd back at MSG in 2003.

    07/09/03 - Madison Square Garden: New York, NY
    attendance: 20,000
    support act: Sleater-Kinney
    set: Crazy Mary, Save You, Hail Hail, Whipping, Corduroy, Red Mosquito, Dissident, I Am Mine, Get Right, Given To Fly, Evacuation, Even Flow, I Believe In Miracles, Untitled/MFC, Deep, Present Tense, Nothingman, State Of Love And Trust, Porch
    enc 1: You've Got To Hide Your Love Away, Elderly Woman, Glorified G, All Or None, Do The Evolution, Alive
    enc 2: Go, Know Your Rights, Rockin' In The Free World, Yellow Ledbetter
    notes: Upon returning for the first encore, Ed starts reading signs in the crowd. "Garden, yes we're in the garden. That's good ... This one says 'play Leash you pussies'. You know, there's fucking children here, you know. You fucking cocksucking motherfucker asshole prick!" He mentions the fan club support and that last night there were 7,000 and tonight there are 8,000 fan club tickets represented. He thanks the fans and mentions hearing how fans have met via shows and become friends or lovers. He jokes how a couple ("I think they're from Jersey") met, married and is trying to have five kids to name them after the band. "So far they have Jeff, Stone and Mike and they're fucking right now trying to get a little Eddie. And if they get to Boom ... we're just gonna keep adding band members. We'll have a horn section ... that's evolution, baby."
  • fortyshades
    fortyshades Posts: 1,835
    So @rival; it was a direct response to a sign. That is not what this discussion was about. At least not in the way I perceived it. I think Meme (where the hell is she? for I am speaking for her now), was talking about the categorization of words. In the way women were perceived and portrayed in language and that she disapproved of the word "bitch" in the song "99 problems". (Meme: am I summarizing this correctly?) This is something else than the individual use of the word; which could be interpreted directly and therefore also be either taken as an insult or be set aside. (A point that MG79478 tirelessly try to make, without looking at the conversation and debate somewhere between pages 3 and 5.)

    What Meme was trying to point at, was the categorization of the word. And in this, she was right. The word "bitch" is not free of cultural connotation and speaks as a matter of fact a cultural language; its aim is to degrade women. In the same way the word "nigger" is used to degrade African Americans and "kike" is used to degrade Jews etc.

    My argument was (and I am summarizing, for not everyone will read the in-between pages) that you should look at the context of the song. In Satan's Bed for example the word was used (in my opinion at least) as somethig ironic; the word was making a (political and social) statement. In the song "Fuck me in the brain" (not previously discussed here) the word "cunt", another derogatory word, was used in a very direct and personal manner. The aim was not to catogorize women as a specific group - which Meme believed, or was at least concerned about in the song "99 problems". The aim was to either make a political (Satan's Bed) or personal statement (Fuck me in the brain).

    My argument was: that art itself had a function. That it could change words and therefore also change its meaning. Derogatory words could be used ironically (see for example "faggot" in the unedited version of Money for Nothing) or used as a personal statement; or used to make people aware of the power of words. (Which the song 99 problems IMO did). Art therefore has the stage, so to speak, to change derogatory words into something else: words of empowerment (what hiphop does frequently) or to make a political statements etc. Context is everything here; how is the word used and in which way is it used and to who it is directed?

    That this is a slippery slope and bound to individual interpretation, is evident. I remember that, for example, Michael Jackson got flamed for the words "kike me" and "Jew me" in the song "They Don't Care About Us". It was anti-semitic [read: categorization of people] etc. (Even though I believed that he had many problems, anti-semitism wasn't one of them.) The radio version of the song was even censored, while it was evident to me - looking at the context of the song - Kike me / Jew me - the song was actually anti anti-semitism (if this makes sense). It was as a matter of fact a critique to anti-semitism. And in here the power of "art" lies. Art cab change the meaning and cultural connotation of words. That this can cause debate, well, that is also clear. Either way, I think the word "bitch" in "99 problems" has a specific meaning in the context of the song and this meaning is not necessarily derogatory or categoriziting a group of people. That the song is ambigious, however, is also clear.

    Either way, this is a summary of the debate, in my view at least, so far. I am not sure if Meme want to add anything. The way I perceived this thread however, is that this was not about flaming PJ, but an opinion raised by a concerned fan - which sparked an interesting and intellectual debate so far. At least that is my experience of it... Others may add something, if I didn't represent their views correctly.

    I have to apologize for my English, but I am tired.
  • MG79478
    MG79478 Posts: 1,727
    fortyshades wrote:
    But my debate with you stops here.
    Glad to see you keep your word.
    fortyshades wrote:
    I first wrote a very drawn-out response... Posted it... And deleted it... For you know what, this is simply not worth my time. Your post is nothing more than one petty insult after another. And a poor reflection of this thread. This is a prime example why the "US" and "ignorance" are often used in the same sentence. (Hitler is extreme left (???), this statement still truly kills me.)

    So in short... Bye bye... Auf Wiedersehen (this is German btw, not Dutch)... Time to hit the ignore and foe button, so you can start harassing someone else...

    Good luck with your future lessons in Chinese btw. I heard that much "business" is heading in that direction. I hope you know that China is in fact a communist state...

    You're an interesting character. A prime example of why Amsterdam is known for only one thing. You hurl insults, than accuse me of your behavior. Typical internet behavior when someone is losing an argument. Mission accomplished, you’ve been able to completely divert the conversation from the original topic, I hope you are proud. I also find it interesting how you try to portray yourself as an intellectual superior. The only people who brag about their intelligence, are the people who are over compensating for a lack of. Stephen Hawking doesn’t walk around bragging about how smart he is, why do you? I find your choice of a “university teacher” an interesting one to brag about. Was your goal to fabricate a profession that doesn’t seem too lofty? Why not get specific, let us know that you have your doctorate in Nuclear Physics? You don’t want us to assume you’re a professor’s assistant who teaches “basket weaving” classes, stuff like Music History, Anthropology, Sociology, etc?

    Why do Europeans always assume that American only know one language, and why do they brag about knowing multiple? Do you know why so many Europeans know multiple languages? It’s not because they are more intelligent, it’s because THEY HAVE TO. Less than one third of a percent of people in the world speak Dutch, you had no choice but to learn other languages.
    fortyshades wrote:
    Going to catch up on my reading now on WW II, which I know nothing off (supposedly), even though my whole country was bombed and people on my fathers side severely traumatized during the German occupation.
    It would be great if you were actually going to do this! You might learn something. I see you are heavily influenced by the opinion of others. You have this sense of entitlement that you don’t need to understand history because some of your family members told you stories. Imagine if everyone felt the same way you did, we’d have a bunch of adults believing in Santa Claus. You seemed to forget that my country was also bombed during WWII, and members of my family laid down their lives so that you could be free to have your ignorant elitist attitude.
  • MG79478
    MG79478 Posts: 1,727
    fortyshades wrote:
    So @rival; it was a direct response to a sign. That is not what this discussion was about. At least not in the way I perceived it. I think Meme (where the hell is she? for I am speaking for her now), was talking about the categorization of words. In the way women were perceived and portrayed in language and that she disapproved of the word "bitch" in the song "99 problems". (Meme: am I summarizing this correctly?) This is something else than the individual use of the word; which could be interpreted directly and therefore also be either taken as an insult or be set aside. (A point that MG79478 tirelessly try to make, without looking at the conversation and debate somewhere between pages 3 and 5.)

    What Meme was trying to point at, was the categorization of the word. And in this, she was right. The word "bitch" is not free of cultural connotation and speaks as a matter of fact a cultural language; its aim is to degrade women. In the same way the word "nigger" is used to degrade African Americans and "kike" is used to degrade Jews etc.

    My argument was (and I am summarizing, for not everyone will read the in-between pages) that you should look at the context of the song. In Satan's Bed for example the word was used (in my opinion at least) as somethig ironic; the word was making a (political and social) statement. In the song "Fuck me in the brain" (not previously discussed here) the word "cunt", another derogatory word, was used in a very direct and personal manner. The aim was not to catogorize women as a specific group - which Meme believed, or was at least concerned about in the song "99 problems". The aim was to either make a political (Satan's Bed) or personal statement (Fuck me in the brain).

    My argument was: that art itself had a function. That it could change words and therefore also change its meaning. Derogatory words could be used ironically (see for example "faggot" in the unedited version of Money for Nothing) or used as a personal statement; or used to make people aware of the power of words. (Which the song 99 problems IMO did). Art therefore has the stage, so to speak, to change derogatory words into something else: words of empowerment (what hiphop does frequently) or to make a political statements etc. Context is everything here; how is the word used and in which way is it used and to who it is directed?

    That this is a slippery slope and bound to individual interpretation, is evident. I remember that, for example, Michael Jackson got flamed for the words "kike me" and "Jew me" in the song "They Don't Care About Us". It was anti-semitic [read: categorization of people] etc. (Even though I believed that he had many problems, anti-semitism wasn't one of them.) The radio version of the song was even censored, while it was evident to me - looking at the context of the song - Kike me / Jew me - the song was actually anti anti-semitism (if this makes sense). It was as a matter of fact a critique to anti-semitism. And in here the power of "art" lies. Art cab change the meaning and cultural connotation of words. That this can cause debate, well, that is also clear. Either way, I think the word "bitch" in "99 problems" has a specific meaning in the context of the song and this meaning is not necessarily derogatory or categoriziting a group of people. That the song is ambigious, however, is also clear.

    Either way, this is a summary of the debate, in my view at least, so far. I am not sure if Meme want to add anything. The way I perceived this thread however, is that this was not about flaming PJ, but an opinion raised by a concerned fan - which sparked an interesting and intellectual debate so far. At least that is my experience of it... Others may add something, if I didn't represent their views correctly.

    I have to apologize for my English, but I am tired.

    Ever hear "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me"? My children understand this. It's quite amazing how much some try to complicate matters. It's just a word, it has meaning, but it only has the power you let it have. Some just choose to not play the "vicitim card" and let words bother them. If someone tries to insult me (as fortyshades has tirelessly tried as a diversion from the discussion), I just laugh at them.
  • fortyshades
    fortyshades Posts: 1,835
    edited October 2012
    You know MG79478, there were other people in this debate... I didn't derail it from the original topic. I responded to it. And people have responded to me. You, on the other hand, only seem to respond to my comments. God knows why. And I don't care, to be honest. Maybe you should pick the discussion up with them? Like I stated before, I ignore you in this discussion. If you will keep harassing me however, I will make a formal complaint... This *debate* was not just about me and you; I was actually discussing the matter with a few people (including the OP!)... And some interesting stuff was said. Not sure why you only hightlight my comments or why you feel the need to attack with relentless insults.

    *sigh* getting a bit tired of this...
    Post edited by fortyshades on
  • fortyshades
    fortyshades Posts: 1,835
    edited October 2012
    MG79478 wrote:

    You're an interesting character. A prime example of why Amsterdam is known for only one thing.

    So, I guess you are now implying that I am using drugs? Just another insult, on insult, on insult... Etc. I don't use drugs MG79478. And for your information, this is a big misconception: drugs is not even legalized in Amsterdam. (It never was!)

    But besides all that, even though I ignore you, I had to respond to this one... For it is funny. (In the same way it is funny) how you start to categorize all Europeans now in your comments on this thread.

    So let me guess, what is the "only thing" Amsterdam is known for...

    Amsterdam is known for its tullip bulbs? It's religios tolerance (based on Erasmus)? Or our functioning health care system? The historical centre? The Golden Age? The great and enormous community of expats? Or are you referring to the fact that the Netherlands is in the top 15 of the richest countries with the highest literary rate? I guess not... I guess you are referring to the following item of Amsterdam, maginified (and completly misrepresented) by Republicans and Foxnews:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLJ56BfPoSg

    Yep, Amsterdam is one big cesspool (or is it sex pool?). Run by organized crime. We teach our children safe sex (how dare we)! We are a mess, in a complete state of anarchy etc... And in extent of this I will invite everyone on this board, even you MG79478, for a party next time at my house when PJ will play in Amsterdam... Seriously. Why? To be sinful of course. To do the thing Amsterdam is obviously "known for"...

    Thank you btw for proofing my point on how categorization works and what the power of words are in this process. Notice the words of Foxnews ("cesspool", "anarchy", "organized crimes", and of course "ignored by the liberals") these aren't neutral words, they are meant to categorize, Amsterdam in this case, but to a larger extent of course the perceived "far left in the United States" who want to make a "second Netherlands" of the USA. Yep, be warned... You may have your children taught about safe sex soon! Yes, be warned you may have an health care system that will actually provide health care. Yes, be warned you may have your crime rate drop about aprox. 80%. Why? Because we, the Dutch, together with the "far left of the US" are out to get you! That is right. We will be knocking on your door and take it all down...

    Now, on a serious note: I am done with your insults about my persona, my profession, my family history, the science that I practice etc. And if you continu on this rate I will contact the administrators, for your comments are now leaning towards slander.

    On a humerous note watch the following clip:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn8K6XsEjEU

    My invitation stands btw.
    Post edited by fortyshades on
  • fortyshades
    fortyshades Posts: 1,835
    edited October 2012
    While knowing better and not listening to my common sense, I read all of your responses. And I will react now, and not as friendly, as I did above.

    First off: your comments about my father are very, very unnecessary and uncool. Please do not compare Pearl Harbor (which was a terrible incident) with the bombing in Europe. And please do not make light of what happened to my family. And no, to unnerve another presumption, my knowledge of WWII is not only based on family stories, but because I work in one of the top 5 Institutes about Holocaust and Genocide in the world. My knowledge is therefore based on scholarly work and not just stories. I am very well read into the subject and the classes I give are not about basket "weaving" (insulting again), but about "genocide", "culture", "racial thought", "the prevention of genocide" etc. In the latter, the importance of words as a categorization takes a central piece in research. And no, I do not state this to show off (Stephen Hawking can't walk btw, for he is in a wheelchair), but because I have dealt with rightwing (extremists) before and their complete unfounded and unscientific misrepresentation of the past. It must be tough to be Tea Party member on one hand, or at least follow the nonsense they believe in, and a PJ fan at the same time.

    I have followed you on this board and you are literally spouting nonsense left and right. (Obama is leftwing, Hitler is extreme leftwing - you have a fascination with Hitler btw etc.) And than, during a discussion, you pick on one individual and pursuit him relentlessly in the thread, using ironically the same personalized arguments you use above. (You can't spell, you are "dumb" etc. etc. etc.) You do this over and over again. Two examples: a discussion about a nine year old that got shot and you had this rant about gun control; second example; a post about Obama where you made comparrisons with Hitler. So a) you are either a troll or b) very fustrated and ill-informed.

    Me, on the other hand, I'm getting sick of your personal assaults. (Dragging my fucking family history into this - how dare you, sitting there in that comfortable chair of yours and making these statements and intellectual presumptions about me. I know more about WW II, genocidal processess than you will ever know in a lifetime.) I would recommend that you read this thread again for I commented on several people and had a good discussion with several people, even the OP. I didn't derail this argument, you did. All I did, and in a very repsectful way, counterargued one of your statements. Woe me. Since then six of your posts in this thread are solely aimed at me. You ignore others. You ignore arguments. The only thing you do is make personal attacks. First I reacted with humor, but now in hindsight, the hell with that. I don't have take these insults. Your arguments are petty and not at all answering the questions raised by the OP.

    My advice: stop projecting. Your argument of "sticks and stones" is not and never was, what this argument, and the concern of the OP, was about. She was talking about the categorization of the word "bitch" and not the direct use of the word "bitch" to a person - where you argument of "sticks and stones" might apply. But that is not the point she was raising.

    Now, I am tired of your insults and your personal attacks. And would love to see, where in your opinion I derailed this argument. I just tried to lift it and take the concerns of the OP serious and try to give a counter argument. The importance of words is not mine idea. That words are embedded in a cultural framework, well, that is well known in every social science (from anthropology to political science), and that art can change the meanings of words, you can even trace back to Turner (an anthropologist who wrote a book in 1974 about the importance of art and performance) who states that art does not only mirror reality/ society but also reinvents it. Which I think art does, for it has an intrinsic freedom and makes art, as a matter of fact, a very important cultural component.

    Now my invitation to come to "sinful" Amsterdam, who is "only known" for one thing, still stands. If anybody on this board need a hug, it would be you. And you may even enjoy a city where the murder rate is less than some of the *small* towns in the US. Not bad for an anarchistic state, I would say.

    This time I truly said enough. I will think twice, from now one, to respond on this board or forum, and will no longer respond to you, except when you have a plane ticket in your hand. For to be honest this is not worth it. I thought we were all Pearl Jam fans, that the music bounded us together, that we may disagree, but that we will stay - no matter what - respectful to one another. This is obviously impossible. So no more comments from my side on TenC, except when they are neutral. Its too bad though that we can't have an adult debate and take concerns of fellow fans serious without getting insulting.
    Post edited by fortyshades on
  • Jeremys Spoken
    Jeremys Spoken Posts: 7,578
    It's the internet.

    Chances are the two of you will NEVER EVER meet. So, ignore each other and move on.
    2008 - MSG 6/24-6/25
    2010 - Newark 5/18 MSG 5/21
    2011 - PJ20 9/3-9/4
    2012 - MIA Festival 9/2
    2013 - Wrigley Field 7/19 Brooklyn 10/18-10/19 Philly 10/22
    2015 - Colbert show - 9/23 Global Citizens Festival 9/26
    2016 - Philly 4/28-4/29 MSG 5/1-5/2



  • fortyshades
    fortyshades Posts: 1,835
    Jeremys Spoken wrote:
    It's the internet.

    Chances are the two of you will NEVER EVER meet. So, ignore each other and move on.

    True... And will do that. I saw a great interview with Umberto Eco once, who stated that TV (before internet) actually raised people awareness and knowledge, but that internet - due to the anonimity and the enormous amount of (dis)information - has the opposite effect. Which, I thought, was quite an interesting statement. That all said however, there is a never reason to be insulting however.

    But I will follow your advice.
  • Jeremys Spoken
    Jeremys Spoken Posts: 7,578
    fortyshades wrote:
    Jeremys Spoken wrote:
    It's the internet.

    Chances are the two of you will NEVER EVER meet. So, ignore each other and move on.

    True... And will do that. I saw a great interview with Umberto Eco once, who stated that TV (before internet) actually raised people awareness and knowledge, but that internet - due to the anonimity and the enormous amount of (dis)information - has the opposite effect. Which, I thought, was quite an interesting statement. That all said however, there is a never reason to be insulting however.

    But I will follow your advice.
    Some people just like to be mean. It's not your fault. Maybe they are having a bad day, or a bad week.

    You know who you are, and if you're not who this random internet person says you are, then...you win.
    2008 - MSG 6/24-6/25
    2010 - Newark 5/18 MSG 5/21
    2011 - PJ20 9/3-9/4
    2012 - MIA Festival 9/2
    2013 - Wrigley Field 7/19 Brooklyn 10/18-10/19 Philly 10/22
    2015 - Colbert show - 9/23 Global Citizens Festival 9/26
    2016 - Philly 4/28-4/29 MSG 5/1-5/2



  • fortyshades
    fortyshades Posts: 1,835
    Jeremys Spoken wrote:
    fortyshades wrote:
    Jeremys Spoken wrote:
    It's the internet.

    Chances are the two of you will NEVER EVER meet. So, ignore each other and move on.

    True... And will do that. I saw a great interview with Umberto Eco once, who stated that TV (before internet) actually raised people awareness and knowledge, but that internet - due to the anonimity and the enormous amount of (dis)information - has the opposite effect. Which, I thought, was quite an interesting statement. That all said however, there is a never reason to be insulting however.

    But I will follow your advice.
    Some people just like to be mean. It's not your fault. Maybe they are having a bad day, or a bad week.

    You know who you are, and if you're not who this random internet person says you are, then...you win.

    If I look at the threads he writes in; it seems more than a bad day or a bad week, more like a bad lifetime. But you are right: I do not know the context in which things are written and should not make presumptions in this. That said however, I do think we have a (collective) responsibility to counteract against misinformation (See the O'Reille report above about Amsterdam, but also his comments about Hitler - which are more disturbing) and ignorance...
  • Miiike
    Miiike Posts: 436
    Fascinating, fascinating thread! Epic! Meme I'm glad you were brave enough to voice your concerns. I thought your post was very thoughtful (if a touch dramatic in places, as you've said in hindsight ;) ) . . .

    There's a lot on here that I don't have the time or inclination to engage with, but f**k there are some pretty intelligent arguments! I love that we have so many thinkers in the ten club (especially you fortyshades :) ) . . .

    Just to add another voice to the argument, I was at MIA a month ago, and for me the concert was an INSANE high. INSANE. I had the time of my life. THE TIME OF MY FRICKING LIFE. It was incredible. So much fun. I loved (almost) every second of it. And my husband is FINALLY a PJ convert! You can't understand how much that means to me :D . . . But all that said, I didn't adore the 99 Problems collaboration. It didn't make me feel that nice and cosy.

    For me, as a woman (who is far too dependent on Pearl Jam as positive male role-models, yes I know) it just wasn't that awesome.

    And I don't give a fucking hoot what the context of the song is. A HOOT. The song uses the word bitch (a word offensive to a lot of women), repeatedly, in the chorus. If there was a novelty song about a 'faggot' which was in actual fact about a piece of firewood, it wouldn't matter one iota. You wouldn't sing that song at a gig where half the audience is gay, for crying out loud. It would be offensive and rightly so. Context, meh. And yes I know I know Eddie uses the word bitch in Satan's Bed, but it's not repeatedly thrown at the audience the way it is in 99 Problems.

    I don't think it was the worst most awful thing ever. But I think it risked alienating some women in the audience for the duration of the song. And yes, it grossed me out a little at the time.

    With the amount of female fans that Pearl Jam has, maybe they could have chosen something better for that moment. Or at least said to JayZ 'hey, we have a LOT of female fans that probably won't know the context of the song, and it might not sound too beautiful to them coming from us'. But at the same time they're not responsible for our happiness, and have every freedom as artists to do what the fuck they want.

    But we shouldn't be expected to like it. And no one on the forum should expect us to like it. And apparently none of them sang back-up vocals, so maybe they assumed some of us wouldn't like it.

    Not a triumph for me, but not the end of the world either. A lot of fans who love JayZ got a huge kick out of it, and the crowd loved it at the time. Maybe Pearl Jam thought us girls were big enough to handle it, for the sake of everyone else who was into it.

    Which we are, of course (big enough). But, personally, I don't need the boot of the song on my iPod. Nor do I need to watch the clip on youtube again.

    I still love and adore Pearl Jam intensely, but I didn't love that.

    And I will always have respect for someone like Meme who took the time to articulate (quite beautifully) why she and others might have a problem with it.

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