"Remember the Ladies..."

PJ_Soul · September 2012

MG79478 wrote:

meme wrote:

I am not sure how you can judge of my actions, since all you have of me are the words I wrote here.

In any case, yes you did define me by the group you think I fit into, what you call the liberals.

Anyway, I very much thank the people who took the time to make reasoned arguments pro or con my original post. For what it's worth, my disappointment was put into perspective.

You took the action to come on this board, and write a huge post, and reply many times. That says a lot. People don't do that on a whim.

In any case, all I did was observe your behavior. I didn't even say you were a liberal, I just said that your mentality in this situation fits the typical liberal mentality, which generally prevails around this board.

It’s just a song, and there are more important things in life to worry about. You’d probably have a hard time finding any song that didn’t offend someone.

I'm liberal and on these boards, and I completely disagree with meme.... I don't think me men's attitude here mirrors general thinking on these boards at all. I don't think it reflects a liberal mindset whatsoever, in fact. It reflects feminist extremism if nothing else.

MG79478 · September 2012

PJ_Soul wrote:

I'm liberal and on these boards, and I completely disagree with meme.... I don't think me men's attitude here mirrors general thinking on these boards at all. I don't think it reflects a liberal mindset whatsoever, in fact. It reflects feminist extremism if nothing else.

I'm conservative and I completely disagree with meme. So we are in agreement on that. But I'm suprised that you don't think that femanism is a liberal mindset. Liberal identity politics gave birth to femanism. But hey, let's not get in to a political discussion.

PJ_Soul · September 2012

MG79478 wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

I'm liberal and on these boards, and I completely disagree with meme.... I don't think me men's attitude here mirrors general thinking on these boards at all. I don't think it reflects a liberal mindset whatsoever, in fact. It reflects feminist extremism if nothing else.

I'm conservative and I completely disagree with meme. So we are in agreement on that. But I'm suprised that you don't think that femanism is a liberal mindset. Liberal identity politics gave birth to femanism. But hey, let's not get in to a political discussion.

Feminism and feminist extremism aren't the same things. There is liberal, there is conservative, and then there are things outside of both, and I definitely think that this reaction to the JayZ/PJ thing is that third thing!

musicismylife78 · September 2012

MG79478 wrote:

meme wrote:

Thank you so much for this. I was wondering about how the birth of his daughter might have influenced him. Very interesting to know about his change of heart.

I don't know hip hop very well, so I would never label the entire genre in any way. If anything I am intrigued by the social themes of marginalization they bring up and you remind me of. My issue had been with that specific word. I still believe words are important, and I cherish my way of relating to music as something deeper than just entertainment. With respect to people who said it's just words... I understand you might not find this one offensive, but would it really be irrelevant to most of you if Pearl Jam sang songs with words upholding values they have fought against all their lives?

Anyway, thanks again.

All words are “just words”; they can only offend you if you let them. I could make up a word right now, and tell you it’s the most disgusting and derogatory word about women ever created. Would that word offend you?

I think you are reading too much in to this. You act like they’ve spent an entire career singing about women’s rights, only to now reverse course. Pearl Jam is just a band, they just make music. I don’t support most of the stuff the band does (politically), but I think they are talented musicians.

To be fair, I sort of get what the OP is saying. PJ is a political band. lets face it. They have been since day 1. Sure not every single song they've written has some social/political message, but they;'ve been as active in social causes and activism as any band in our generation, probably even more so. Ed specifically has always been a feminist. The writing of "pro choice" on his arm during unplugged. The 1994 or 1995 tour where instead of an opening band they had legendary feminist Gloria Steinam speak. Ed's been on the cover of Ms Magazine. Theyve always been pretty conscious of women in the crowd, and if someone is trying to harass women, ed calls them out from on stage. Feminist issues certainly were never their main issue of focus, but to ignore that they have done work on its behalf is to ignore PJ history completely. Certainly, they no doubt brought Sleater Kinney on tour because they enjoyed the tunes, but I also think a huge part of it was janet, carrie and Corin are explicitly political and feminist.

I agree with the OP that offensive language, especially demeaning language to women is upsetting and shouldnt be tolerated. But I dont think PJ endorsed Jay-z. They were asked to play his festival, they felt it was worth it. I think the festival was cool largely because he could have had 3 nights of hip hop. And instead has a diverse lineup of multiple genres and styles of music. Thats a good thing. Just because they played Jay-z festival doesnt mean they like every single lyric he has made. All it means is they respect one another. Jay-z is often called one of the greatest hip hop artists of all time, rightly so. That alone is reason enough for them to go. They arent typically going to get the chance to hang out with hip hop acts.

I see it like Lolla or something. When PJ has played the fest there, im sure they dont necessarily like every artist, or every band, and they probably dislike some bands and some of the lyrics of some bands. But I think artists respect other artists. Even if you dislike another musicians music, you can still respect their art and craft. Is Jay-z's work free of disrespecting women, or materialism, or violence? No, but how many artists do you agree 100 percent with on every issue?

PJ_Soul · September 2012

musicismylife78 wrote:

MG79478 wrote:

meme wrote:

Thank you so much for this. I was wondering about how the birth of his daughter might have influenced him. Very interesting to know about his change of heart.

I don't know hip hop very well, so I would never label the entire genre in any way. If anything I am intrigued by the social themes of marginalization they bring up and you remind me of. My issue had been with that specific word. I still believe words are important, and I cherish my way of relating to music as something deeper than just entertainment. With respect to people who said it's just words... I understand you might not find this one offensive, but would it really be irrelevant to most of you if Pearl Jam sang songs with words upholding values they have fought against all their lives?

Anyway, thanks again.

All words are “just words”; they can only offend you if you let them. I could make up a word right now, and tell you it’s the most disgusting and derogatory word about women ever created. Would that word offend you?

I think you are reading too much in to this. You act like they’ve spent an entire career singing about women’s rights, only to now reverse course. Pearl Jam is just a band, they just make music. I don’t support most of the stuff the band does (politically), but I think they are talented musicians.

To be fair, I sort of get what the OP is saying. PJ is a political band. lets face it. They have been since day 1. Sure not every single song they've written has some social/political message, but they;'ve been as active in social causes and activism as any band in our generation, probably even more so. Ed specifically has always been a feminist. The writing of "pro choice" on his arm during unplugged. The 1994 or 1995 tour where instead of an opening band they had legendary feminist Gloria Steinam speak. Ed's been on the cover of Ms Magazine. Theyve always been pretty conscious of women in the crowd, and if someone is trying to harass women, ed calls them out from on stage. Feminist issues certainly were never their main issue of focus, but to ignore that they have done work on its behalf is to ignore PJ history completely. Certainly, they no doubt brought Sleater Kinney on tour because they enjoyed the tunes, but I also think a huge part of it was janet, carrie and Corin are explicitly political and feminist.

I agree with the OP that offensive language, especially demeaning language to women is upsetting and shouldnt be tolerated. But I dont think PJ endorsed Jay-z. They were asked to play his festival, they felt it was worth it. I think the festival was cool largely because he could have had 3 nights of hip hop. And instead has a diverse lineup of multiple genres and styles of music. Thats a good thing. Just because they played Jay-z festival doesnt mean they like every single lyric he has made. All it means is they respect one another. Jay-z is often called one of the greatest hip hop artists of all time, rightly so. That alone is reason enough for them to go. They arent typically going to get the chance to hang out with hip hop acts.

I see it like Lolla or something. When PJ has played the fest there, im sure they dont necessarily like every artist, or every band, and they probably dislike some bands and some of the lyrics of some bands. But I think artists respect other artists. Even if you dislike another musicians music, you can still respect their art and craft. Is Jay-z's work free of disrespecting women, or materialism, or violence? No, but how many artists do you agree 100 percent with on every issue?

I support women's rights even more than Eddie does (being a woman and all), and I'm not offended at all, so..... I do not see where the OP is coming from. This was simply not an offensive occurance.

sheri zona · September 2012

PillowPants wrote:

ok i can't read the whole thread but hopefully someone has kindly informed meme that the bitch in the song is a police dog??

Yes, Jay said this on the Stern show recently as well when they were talking about the song.

I liked it. WTF do I know

LiLiNY81 · September 2012

SPEEDY MCCREADY wrote:

They performed a song...
With offensive lyrics...
It lasted 3.5 minutes...

Go on with your lives people..
Quit taking this nonsense so seriously....

THIS

People are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to Sally Sensitive nowadays. It was a cool collaboration. It was nice to see two completely different musical acts come together. It looks like the people there were having fun. That's it. DANG....it's the entertainment industry, people! I found it entertaining so therefore all parties have done their jobs.

meme · September 2012

musicismylife78 wrote:

MG79478 wrote:

meme wrote:

Thank you so much for this. I was wondering about how the birth of his daughter might have influenced him. Very interesting to know about his change of heart.

I don't know hip hop very well, so I would never label the entire genre in any way. If anything I am intrigued by the social themes of marginalization they bring up and you remind me of. My issue had been with that specific word. I still believe words are important, and I cherish my way of relating to music as something deeper than just entertainment. With respect to people who said it's just words... I understand you might not find this one offensive, but would it really be irrelevant to most of you if Pearl Jam sang songs with words upholding values they have fought against all their lives?

Anyway, thanks again.

All words are “just words”; they can only offend you if you let them. I could make up a word right now, and tell you it’s the most disgusting and derogatory word about women ever created. Would that word offend you?

I think you are reading too much in to this. You act like they’ve spent an entire career singing about women’s rights, only to now reverse course. Pearl Jam is just a band, they just make music. I don’t support most of the stuff the band does (politically), but I think they are talented musicians.

To be fair, I sort of get what the OP is saying. PJ is a political band. lets face it. They have been since day 1. Sure not every single song they've written has some social/political message, but they;'ve been as active in social causes and activism as any band in our generation, probably even more so. Ed specifically has always been a feminist. The writing of "pro choice" on his arm during unplugged. The 1994 or 1995 tour where instead of an opening band they had legendary feminist Gloria Steinam speak. Ed's been on the cover of Ms Magazine. Theyve always been pretty conscious of women in the crowd, and if someone is trying to harass women, ed calls them out from on stage. Feminist issues certainly were never their main issue of focus, but to ignore that they have done work on its behalf is to ignore PJ history completely. Certainly, they no doubt brought Sleater Kinney on tour because they enjoyed the tunes, but I also think a huge part of it was janet, carrie and Corin are explicitly political and feminist.

I agree with the OP that offensive language, especially demeaning language to women is upsetting and shouldnt be tolerated. But I dont think PJ endorsed Jay-z. They were asked to play his festival, they felt it was worth it. I think the festival was cool largely because he could have had 3 nights of hip hop. And instead has a diverse lineup of multiple genres and styles of music. Thats a good thing. Just because they played Jay-z festival doesnt mean they like every single lyric he has made. All it means is they respect one another. Jay-z is often called one of the greatest hip hop artists of all time, rightly so. That alone is reason enough for them to go. They arent typically going to get the chance to hang out with hip hop acts.

I see it like Lolla or something. When PJ has played the fest there, im sure they dont necessarily like every artist, or every band, and they probably dislike some bands and some of the lyrics of some bands. But I think artists respect other artists. Even if you dislike another musicians music, you can still respect their art and craft. Is Jay-z's work free of disrespecting women, or materialism, or violence? No, but how many artists do you agree 100 percent with on every issue?

This really makes a lot of sense to me. As I said, I was heartbroken (Yes, heartbroken

) when I first heard it. I thought even if they had to play a song, they could have chosen another one. Except the flow from WMA clearly made sense and it would have been silly to suggest a different song.

I live in a world where the world bitch is very rarely used, so I was much rawer to it than most people. It hurt. I guess that's where I was coming from.

I'm still not excited about it, but far less angry now.
While I am growing less sensitive to it, I hope some of you will grow more sensitive and be mindful that it is an offensive and demeaning word. Or so think I and a dozen other fans who wrote privately

nicksmith33 · September 2012

OK, I have a lot of opinions about this but to restate them after everyone else has already basically said everything there is to say would be kind of pointless. So I'll save the long winded response. Let's just say that I think Jay Z is awesome. Loved the song/performance. And the one thing I think that has been left off of here is the fact that Jay Z is a very talented lyricist. If you read his book, many of his lyrics have two or three meanings and he explains them. Some of his lyrics can be very deep and something that unless you read his interpretation you probably would never think of in the way he meant. But the book is a great read. And as somebody else already said, unless you are part of the hip hop culture, I don't think you can truly understand how much of the language is used. I just choose to accept there are some things I don't have to understand.

But my main point in posting is to raise a more important question. I'm really excited that PJ has chosen to perform with Jay Z and would loved to have been there. But as I will be seeing them in ATL on the same bill as Ludacris, the real question is will we get a collabo of PJ and Ludacris on "Move Bitch Get Out the Way."

musicismylife78 · September 2012

to further elaborate on the complexity of jay's and hip hop lyrics in general, the song actually has a pretty pointed critique of racial profiling, and on the studio version jay actually imitates the how a white racist cop would speak. Im paraphrasing here, but he goes something like "i saw you doing 55 in a 54, are you carrying drugs i know alot of you are? No mr officer, is it because im young and black and my hats real low"? So even within the song, which as meme does point out, has offensive slurs towards women, its not black and white, in that he also discusses racial issues in it as well. So some good and bad content on the song.

PJ_Soul · September 2012

nicksmith33 wrote:

OK, I have a lot of opinions about this but to restate them after everyone else has already basically said everything there is to say would be kind of pointless. So I'll save the long winded response. Let's just say that I think Jay Z is awesome. Loved the song/performance. And the one thing I think that has been left off of here is the fact that Jay Z is a very talented lyricist. If you read his book, many of his lyrics have two or three meanings and he explains them. Some of his lyrics can be very deep and something that unless you read his interpretation you probably would never think of in the way he meant. But the book is a great read. And as somebody else already said, unless you are part of the hip hop culture, I don't think you can truly understand how much of the language is used. I just choose to accept there are some things I don't have to understand.

But my main point in posting is to raise a more important question. I'm really excited that PJ has chosen to perform with Jay Z and would loved to have been there. But as I will be seeing them in ATL on the same bill as Ludacris, the real question is will we get a collabo of PJ and Ludacris on "Move Bitch Get Out the Way."

musicismylife78 · September 2012

nicksmith33 wrote:

OK, I have a lot of opinions about this but to restate them after everyone else has already basically said everything there is to say would be kind of pointless. So I'll save the long winded response. Let's just say that I think Jay Z is awesome. Loved the song/performance. And the one thing I think that has been left off of here is the fact that Jay Z is a very talented lyricist. If you read his book, many of his lyrics have two or three meanings and he explains them. Some of his lyrics can be very deep and something that unless you read his interpretation you probably would never think of in the way he meant. But the book is a great read. And as somebody else already said, unless you are part of the hip hop culture, I don't think you can truly understand how much of the language is used. I just choose to accept there are some things I don't have to understand.

But my main point in posting is to raise a more important question. I'm really excited that PJ has chosen to perform with Jay Z and would loved to have been there. But as I will be seeing them in ATL on the same bill as Ludacris, the real question is will we get a collabo of PJ and Ludacris on "Move Bitch Get Out the Way."

excellent points. I would suggest hip hop novices check out Rhyme and Reason, a documentary on these vary subjects. The objectionable content in hip hop, but also the positive stuff. And also check out The Wire, the tv show. In essence everyone depicted is the type of people hip hop speaks to and about, and issues of inequality and race, racial profiling, the drug war, police corruption all of it is discussed. One of the deepest shows ever broadcast.

Also, although we shouldnt give people who use that type of language a pass, I do think that type of language, as well as other obscene words are indeed used in the inner city, that type of language is very commonplace.

musicismylife78 · September 2012

or take someone like Pac. Deeply respected in the genre and elsewhere, but was a complex guy. While he had many songs praising women and demanding people respect them as in Dear Mama, Keep Ya Head up, Brendas got a Baby, he also had a song like I get Around which essentially celebrated his exploitation of women. He had a song like Changes, which pleaded for everyone and specifically his black brothers to stop killing each other, than had a song like Hail Mary which celebrated guns and the gangster life. Further complicating matters, he used the n word which of course is controverial. But to him it mean never ignorant getting goals accomplished.

I think thats art, and human beings in general though. Even the most moral and ethical band of all time Fugazi has its critics and detracters.

_ · September 2012

I think a lot of people here are suggesting that those who are disappointed that Pearl Jam did this song are being overly defensive or reading too much into it - but at the same time they are also being defensive and reading too much into people's disappointment. I just want to point out that disliking specific disrespectful lyrics in a song (or even just thinking they are contrary to the band's previous messages) does not necessarily mean that someone disapproves of the collaboration with JayZ, of JayZ himself, or of the entire song, nor does it necessarily indicate a disapproval or lack of understanding of hip hop. Geez... some people should really just lighten up.

meme · September 2012

_ wrote:

I think a lot of people here are suggesting that those who are disappointed that Pearl Jam did this song are being overly defensive or reading too much into it - but at the same time they are also being defensive and reading too much into people's disappointment. I just want to point out that disliking specific disrespectful lyrics in a song (or even just thinking they are contrary to the band's previous messages) does not necessarily mean that someone disapproves of the collaboration with JayZ, of JayZ himself, or of the entire song, nor does it necessarily indicate a disapproval or lack of understanding of hip hop. Geez... some people should really just lighten up.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

THIS!

megslovesstone · September 2012

I remember the way how upset many folks were when Sandra Fluke was called a slut, and when Akin coined the phrase "legitimate rape". People respond really viscerally, powerfully, and in pain, to certain words and phrases because it touches something deep down in them.
For meme, and for some others, when Pearl Jam participates, even for a few minutes, in something that is connected to that painful spot, she, and anyone else, responds...because that's what we do. We analyze everything the band is doing, saying, singing about because we love them so much. I'm surprised (sorta) that so many seemed SO annoyed that she had strong feelings about it and decided to write about it in a carefully thought out way. To be sure, I spend A LOT OF TIME on the Hey, Girl pages and the "where Ed looks hot" pages ( 8-) , but I also love this forum for being provocative & serious, and for challenging me to think about how I view the world..and words.

I remember one time Oprah said to Jay-Z, " I don't like that you use the n word--it's the last word black men in this country heard before being lynched." And Jay-Z disagreed. Same deal with pejorative words about women. For some people, those words--bitch, whore, ho, slut, etc.--have been used in ways that carry an extraordinary weight no matter what. For others, it's no biggie, or the seriousness depends on how it's being used (as a joke, as a parody, as a play on words versus to attack someone or make them feel bad).

It's been interesting to read the views of both sets of people.

Pearl Jam has a way with words that has felt life-saving to me, and I know many of you. So no wonder that some fans might react profoundly to any words they use or endorse.

Interesting thread!!!

PJFAN13 · September 2012

http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2012 ... tw&cc=twmp

Here you go meme...sorry so many folks have to be rude or nasty. I hope you'll continue to contribute in your positive light, you definitely classy this place up.

Keep on rockin in the FREE world, all.
Education is the movement from darkness to light.
Peace and civility to all

megslovesstone · September 2012

PJFAN13 wrote:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2012/09/06/160672019/who-you-calling-a-b?sc=tw&cc=twmp

Here you go meme...sorry so many folks have to be rude or nasty. I hope you'll continue to contribute in your positive light, you definitely classy this place up.

Keep on rockin in the FREE world, all.
Education is the movement from darkness to light.
Peace and civility to all

How funny, I was just getting on here to post Lupe Fiasco's incredible song, "Bitch Bad"--would love to see PJ collaborate with him!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3m3t_PxiUI

fortyshades · September 2012

MG79478 wrote:

meme wrote:

Thank you so much for this. I was wondering about how the birth of his daughter might have influenced him. Very interesting to know about his change of heart.

I don't know hip hop very well, so I would never label the entire genre in any way. If anything I am intrigued by the social themes of marginalization they bring up and you remind me of. My issue had been with that specific word. I still believe words are important, and I cherish my way of relating to music as something deeper than just entertainment. With respect to people who said it's just words... I understand you might not find this one offensive, but would it really be irrelevant to most of you if Pearl Jam sang songs with words upholding values they have fought against all their lives?

Anyway, thanks again.

All words are “just words”; they can only offend you if you let them. I could make up a word right now, and tell you it’s the most disgusting and derogatory word about women ever created. Would that word offend you?

I think you are reading too much in to this. You act like they’ve spent an entire career singing about women’s rights, only to now reverse course. Pearl Jam is just a band, they just make music. I don’t support most of the stuff the band does (politically), but I think they are talented musicians.

With this I disagree. Words are never "words". Words carry meaning, have an aim and an intent. Words are a way in which we express our (inner) world, values and ideas and can therefore never be "neutral". If you make up a "disgusting and derogatory word" up right now, as you state, your aim is to create a "disgusting and derogatory word" and is therefore in nature offensive. Or to put it in other words: you are using a circular argument here. In this sense Meme is raising a valid concern. PJ has been a political band. (And not just talented musicians.) PJ has raised female issues and has addressed openly topics as abortion, groupies, equal rights etc. I do think however that this discussion is not on the use of words, but on the interpretation. Sometimes you can use derogatory words to in fact state the opposite - see my previous comment in this thread.

That all said, I am glad that this conversation turned for the better in the last few days. It shows that we can have an adult conversation on this board and that we can actually share ideas without some (Satan's) dick swapping. I think it is good that these things are discussed and ironically it was a colloberation between PJ and Jay-Z that put a discussion about female rights on this forum. Which, I think, can only be a good thing...

moretonbayfig · September 2012

I agree with Forty Shades. Personally, I find the word "lady" more confining that the word "bitch"... but I don't find the word offensive.

"Remember the Ladies..."

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