Where are we headed?

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  • Jeanwah
    Jeanwah Posts: 6,363
    brianlux wrote:
    Maybe we should make Ishmael required reading in high school and give Catcher in the Rye a break. It's a good book too but I'm thinking Ishmael is more relevant these days.
    It is required reading for some schools! From what I've heard anyway.

    I don't think that just because I don't see things ending well, doesn't mean I'm all doom and gloom. There's a lot of goodness out there and solution minded books and articles. What I like about Ishmael is that Baldwin leaves it open-ended. It doesn't have that pessimist feel to it, and maybe some think that's naive, but to go through life with a cloud over your head doesn't exactly produce happiness... and happiness is our goal in life isn't it? Or do people truly like being miserable about everything? Other books looking at world problems don't offer solutions, and that just leads to more pessimism. I don't pick up those books, I need to feel inspired rather than let down.

    We solve things where and when we can. Look at what Pearl Jam is doing - Stone advocates for the environment, Jeff builds skate parks for kids who need that outlet. Eddie doesn't rant about politics and what's wrong with the world anymore at shows. He seems to have found peace. We have to look within ourselves first to find the solutions before we can see them out in the world. Reading books like Ishmael does that. Just because it may not end well, doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can for the earth, other species and each other NOW. Love really is the answer. Because all we really have is right now.
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    Jeanwah wrote:
    Just because it may not end well, doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can for the earth, other species and each other NOW. Love really is the answer. Because all we really have is right now.
    As Lily Tomlin would say - "and that's the truth!"
  • riotgrl
    riotgrl LOUISVILLE Posts: 1,895
    After reading this book (which I find to be very profound BTW), I have spent the last few days thinking about many of the very things some of you already mention in previous posts. It's a bit depressing to think that I cannot change our country or "society" in the ways that need to be changed. I found that this book put several pieces into place for me especially some of the struggles I've had with religion. Anyway, I really wanted to say that my hubs and I have found a way to do MORE. We have done everything we can in our 15 year marriage to achieve the "American Dream" but we haven't been truly happy with some of the things we've achieved. Do we really need this big of a house? Do we need new cars and the latest technology. Don't get me wrong, if that floats your boat then I'm not knocking you but for the past 2 years I have really questioned the way we live. While it is not feasible to move to a "greener" or more sustainable city, I can work on downsizing and focus on the necessities and not as much on the extras. I guess we were moving towards this anyway but now I have a better understanding of the links between all these things. I think, as someone said previously, we can't go back. We are going to have to find a way to use technology to better our situation instead of continuing to destroy what we are supposed to be protecting. Hopefully, we can all find a way to do that. We each have to define "necessities" for ourselves but can we forgo other things that are not? For example, we decided that attending PJ concerts are a necessity (even though we would be using fossil fuels etc) but that getting rid of other extras, like eating out (using fossil fuels to drive 20 minutes across town to eat at our favorite sushi place) would be a compromise. I have too much to say about this book to bore you with it here but I will leave you with one last thought. I am a teacher and the best class I teach is AP Human Geography. It is the study of everything that was discussed in Ishmael - religion, agriculture, folk culture, geopolitics, urban land use, etc. and I am going to incorporate this book into my curriculum for the year. In fact, I think I will use it as my end of the year project. This way maybe a younger generation will start to think about these problems earlier and can start moving in the right direction.

    Thanks brianlux and everyone else for turning me on to this book!
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    i do not consider attending pj concerts as a necessity. i do not consider attending any concert as an absolute necessity even though i know live music is one of my lifebloods.
    having read ishmael it made me remember how my worldview is somewhat idealistic and that not all my fellow humans stand by my side. it also made me consider that my idealism is somewhat naive in that i always hope the best of mankind when i know that it will never happen.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • riotgrl
    riotgrl LOUISVILLE Posts: 1,895
    catefrances wrote:
    i do not consider attending pj concerts as a necessity. i do not consider attending any concert as an absolute necessity even though i know live music is one of my lifebloods.
    having read ishmael it made me remember how my worldview is somewhat idealistic and that not all my fellow humans stand by my side. it also made me consider that my idealism is somewhat naive in that i always hope the best of mankind when i know that it will never happen.


    No they are not a necessity and if you'd read my entire post you would have understood that I said we had decided that it was important for us. That we are giving up alot of other things so we can do that. As I said, each person has to define necessity for themselves. I think the Western world has very little to worry about as far as real necessities, food, shelter, clothing, and our "necessities" are different than, say, Sub-Saharan Africa. But it's good that you do not define necessities in the same way I do - that would make the world very boring don't you think?
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,753
    For me, music is a necessity. Everyday, I wake up with a song playing in my head. But having never been to a Pearl Jam concert, I can't say whether or not that is a necessity. Missoula will be my first PJ show so I'll let you know in November. ;)

    But seriously, riotgrl and catefrances bring up a good point and one that frustrates me a lot: what is necessary and how much is enough?. Right now I live in a relatively small older house. To the average Ethiopian I live in a mansion. 17 years ago I lived in a Dodge van for a while and although that was mostly no fun, again, to an average third world person I had it pretty good. At least I had shelter (drivable shelter at that!) and food and clothing and a portable tape player and a guitar and more than one pair of shoes etc. Many people in the world would call that rich! Having lived for a while such that everything I owned I could drive around in a van with, I look at my life now and wonder if perhaps I'm a huge hypocrite for pushing sustainability and renewable energy. I don't believe the world could sustain 7 billion people living the way I do despite the fact that my wife and I are considered lower middle income for the U.S., we're fanatical recyclers, thrift store shoppers, energy conscious, hang our laundry to dry, and try to make everything we own last as long as possible.

    On the other hand, very likely the best thing I've done to make the world more sustainable is to not reproduce. My nephews and godchildren and grandnieces and step-daughter and step-son are my kids. I don't mean to say this to offend or berate anyone who has children or to say that no one should have kids. In the world in which we live now I personally think it's a questionable choice but obviously if we want to carry on as a species, some reproduction is necessary. But the world's population was 6 billion a very short while ago and sometime in March of this year we passed the 7 billion mark. I think that's worth considering.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • riotgrl
    riotgrl LOUISVILLE Posts: 1,895
    One of the things I dislike about "discussing" things on the internet is how difficult it is to clarify your own thoughts or divine the thoughts of others :( I guess my ultimate point that I was having a hard time expressing (it was early and the coffee hadn't kicked in yet), is that we all have a journey to take in this life. My journey is not the one I expected to take and based on how I grew up, the place I am at now is not the expected place. But I am here and I am trying to take action that is right for me. Not everyone can do the things I do and I can't do as much as others but I am here and I am trying and I suppose that was my real point. This book has given me a different vision and maybe a bit of courage to forgo those material things that I thought I "needed" to be happy in this life. Everybody has a journey and it's an individual journey in some ways and in others we are all in this together. Now where do we go? And how do we get there? Really, I just wanted to say thanks for telling me about this book.
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,753
    riotgrl wrote:
    One of the things I dislike about "discussing" things on the internet is how difficult it is to clarify your own thoughts or divine the thoughts of others :( I guess my ultimate point that I was having a hard time expressing (it was early and the coffee hadn't kicked in yet), is that we all have a journey to take in this life. My journey is not the one I expected to take and based on how I grew up, the place I am at now is not the expected place. But I am here and I am trying to take action that is right for me. Not everyone can do the things I do and I can't do as much as others but I am here and I am trying and I suppose that was my real point. This book has given me a different vision and maybe a bit of courage to forgo those material things that I thought I "needed" to be happy in this life. Everybody has a journey and it's an individual journey in some ways and in others we are all in this together. Now where do we go? And how do we get there? Really, I just wanted to say thanks for telling me about this book.

    riotgrl, I totally know what you mean about how it is difficult to clarify one's thoughts on a forum. I re-read and edit nearly every post I make but if I read it later on I'll often think... :fp: ... that's not exactly what I wanted to say. It's hard enough sometimes to clarify in person when you the added benefit of body language and tone of voice. No wonder there gets to be some confusion here! But overall I'm so glad we have this opportunity to share thoughts with people literally all over the world!

    I'm glad you like Ishmael. Do you plan on reading any others by Quinn? Eventually I hope to read at least a few more of his books. I'm really stoked to hear you want to use Ishmael one of your classes. That made my day! :D
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    riotgrl wrote:
    catefrances wrote:
    i do not consider attending pj concerts as a necessity. i do not consider attending any concert as an absolute necessity even though i know live music is one of my lifebloods.
    having read ishmael it made me remember how my worldview is somewhat idealistic and that not all my fellow humans stand by my side. it also made me consider that my idealism is somewhat naive in that i always hope the best of mankind when i know that it will never happen.


    No they are not a necessity and if you'd read my entire post you would have understood that I said we had decided that it was important for us. That we are giving up alot of other things so we can do that. As I said, each person has to define necessity for themselves. I think the Western world has very little to worry about as far as real necessities, food, shelter, clothing, and our "necessities" are different than, say, Sub-Saharan Africa. But it's good that you do not define necessities in the same way I do - that would make the world very boring don't you think?


    i did read your entire post... i was just stating my view. and yes if we all considered the same things necessary life would be boring. there are things that if i had to live without, my existence would be very difficult to deal with. i could not live without music and i cuold not live without books. do i consider them a necessity like i consider food water and shelter necessary??? no, but they are extremely important to my continued mental well being. without them id be a difficult person to be around.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Jeanwah
    Jeanwah Posts: 6,363
    Here's a question: Does anyone think they could live in a commune or tribe to alleviate their weight and footprint on the earth? Just something to think about I guess, that comes out of the book. A radically different way of living to get away from materials and really sharing with others rather than independently?
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,753
    catefrances wrote:
    there are things that if i had to live without, my existence would be very difficult to deal with. i could not live without music and i cuold not live without books. do i consider them a necessity like i consider food water and shelter necessary??? no, but they are extremely important to my continued mental well being. without them id be a difficult person to be around.

    I don't think books and music are directly necessities for anyone's physical well being but for many of us they are essential to the well being of our souls and in that indirectly necessary to our existence. A number of years ago I was hospitalized for a couple of days without a guitar or music to listen to so I spent some of the time practicing a piece I was learning an a bed rail as if it were a fret board. I needed music!

    And not just any old music or books- oh, I had this dream a few weeks ago that I was stuck some place where the only books available anywhere were bargain table mysteries and romance novels. Shudder!

    Back to "where we are headed"- here's James Howard Kunstler's review of this year's annual Aspen Environment Forum. Not exactly encouraging and mostly void of JHK's typical humor.

    http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/06/rocky- ... -high.html
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,753
    Jeanwah wrote:
    Here's a question: Does anyone think they could live in a commune or tribe to alleviate their weight and footprint on the earth? Just something to think about I guess, that comes out of the book. A radically different way of living to get away from materials and really sharing with others rather than independently?

    Jeanwah, I honestly think if I were 10 to 30 years younger I would consider it. If I were younger I would go with Plan A:


    A) Look for ways to buy arable land and learn how to live off it. I would learn to shoe and care for horses, collect hand tools, purchase solar panels, buy or build a stationary bicycle generator, build a cistern, learn more about permaculture, biodynmaic and organic gardening and become a seed saver.

    And then there's Plan B:

    B) Find or help create a walkable community to live in where work, home and play generally take place in the same area. Ideally the buildings would be as energy efficient as possible and as well as machines and devices that would also be shared (for example- one mower properly maintained would suffice for a neighborhood rather than having one in every garage.) As for sharing tools and such, I'm told Fijians live this way- everything is pretty much shared and communal. Also, there would have to be a park or natural areas near enough to bicycle to for a regular nature fix.

    Plan B I might be able to do! :D
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Jeanwah wrote:
    Here's a question: Does anyone think they could live in a commune or tribe to alleviate their weight and footprint on the earth? Just something to think about I guess, that comes out of the book. A radically different way of living to get away from materials and really sharing with others rather than independently?

    my footprint is already quite small....... if i could tolerate other people i think i could... but id need a lot of alone time.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    brianlux wrote:
    catefrances wrote:
    there are things that if i had to live without, my existence would be very difficult to deal with. i could not live without music and i cuold not live without books. do i consider them a necessity like i consider food water and shelter necessary??? no, but they are extremely important to my continued mental well being. without them id be a difficult person to be around.

    I don't think books and music are directly necessities for anyone's physical well being but for many of us they are essential to the well being of our souls and in that indirectly necessary to our existence. A number of years ago I was hospitalized for a couple of days without a guitar or music to listen to so I spent some of the time practicing a piece I was learning an a bed rail as if it were a fret board. I needed music!

    And not just any old music or books- oh, I had this dream a few weeks ago that I was stuck some place where the only books available anywhere were bargain table mysteries and romance novels. Shudder!

    Back to "where we are headed"- here's James Howard Kunstler's review of this year's annual Aspen Environment Forum. Not exactly encouraging and mostly void of JHK's typical humor.

    http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/06/rocky- ... -high.html

    oh im totally speaking about mental well being and the wellness of the soul. 8-)
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say

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