No Need to Panic About Global Warming?

inlet13
inlet13 Posts: 1,979
edited March 2012 in A Moving Train
Interesting article from the wsj.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... Carousel_1

No Need to Panic About Global Warming

There's no compelling scientific argument for drastic action to 'decarbonize' the world's economy.

Editor's Note: The following has been signed by the 16 scientists listed at the end of the article:

A candidate for public office in any contemporary democracy may have to consider what, if anything, to do about "global warming." Candidates should understand that the oft-repeated claim that nearly all scientists demand that something dramatic be done to stop global warming is not true. In fact, a large and growing number of distinguished scientists and engineers do not agree that drastic actions on global warming are needed.

In September, Nobel Prize-winning physicist Ivar Giaever, a supporter of President Obama in the last election, publicly resigned from the American Physical Society (APS) with a letter that begins: "I did not renew [my membership] because I cannot live with the [APS policy] statement: 'The evidence is incontrovertible: Global warming is occurring. If no mitigating actions are taken, significant disruptions in the Earth's physical and ecological systems, social systems, security and human health are likely to occur. We must reduce emissions of greenhouse gases beginning now.' In the APS it is OK to discuss whether the mass of the proton changes over time and how a multi-universe behaves, but the evidence of global warming is incontrovertible?"

In spite of a multidecade international campaign to enforce the message that increasing amounts of the "pollutant" carbon dioxide will destroy civilization, large numbers of scientists, many very prominent, share the opinions of Dr. Giaever. And the number of scientific "heretics" is growing with each passing year. The reason is a collection of stubborn scientific facts.

Perhaps the most inconvenient fact is the lack of global warming for well over 10 years now. This is known to the warming establishment, as one can see from the 2009 "Climategate" email of climate scientist Kevin Trenberth: "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't." But the warming is only missing if one believes computer models where so-called feedbacks involving water vapor and clouds greatly amplify the small effect of CO2.

The lack of warming for more than a decade—indeed, the smaller-than-predicted warming over the 22 years since the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) began issuing projections—suggests that computer models have greatly exaggerated how much warming additional CO2 can cause. Faced with this embarrassment, those promoting alarm have shifted their drumbeat from warming to weather extremes, to enable anything unusual that happens in our chaotic climate to be ascribed to CO2.

The fact is that CO2 is not a pollutant. CO2 is a colorless and odorless gas, exhaled at high concentrations by each of us, and a key component of the biosphere's life cycle. Plants do so much better with more CO2 that greenhouse operators often increase the CO2 concentrations by factors of three or four to get better growth. This is no surprise since plants and animals evolved when CO2 concentrations were about 10 times larger than they are today. Better plant varieties, chemical fertilizers and agricultural management contributed to the great increase in agricultural yields of the past century, but part of the increase almost certainly came from additional CO2 in the atmosphere.

Although the number of publicly dissenting scientists is growing, many young scientists furtively say that while they also have serious doubts about the global-warming message, they are afraid to speak up for fear of not being promoted—or worse. They have good reason to worry. In 2003, Dr. Chris de Freitas, the editor of the journal Climate Research, dared to publish a peer-reviewed article with the politically incorrect (but factually correct) conclusion that the recent warming is not unusual in the context of climate changes over the past thousand years. The international warming establishment quickly mounted a determined campaign to have Dr. de Freitas removed from his editorial job and fired from his university position. Fortunately, Dr. de Freitas was able to keep his university job.

This is not the way science is supposed to work, but we have seen it before—for example, in the frightening period when Trofim Lysenko hijacked biology in the Soviet Union. Soviet biologists who revealed that they believed in genes, which Lysenko maintained were a bourgeois fiction, were fired from their jobs. Many were sent to the gulag and some were condemned to death.

Why is there so much passion about global warming, and why has the issue become so vexing that the American Physical Society, from which Dr. Giaever resigned a few months ago, refused the seemingly reasonable request by many of its members to remove the word "incontrovertible" from its description of a scientific issue? There are several reasons, but a good place to start is the old question "cui bono?" Or the modern update, "Follow the money."

Alarmism over climate is of great benefit to many, providing government funding for academic research and a reason for government bureaucracies to grow. Alarmism also offers an excuse for governments to raise taxes, taxpayer-funded subsidies for businesses that understand how to work the political system, and a lure for big donations to charitable foundations promising to save the planet. Lysenko and his team lived very well, and they fiercely defended their dogma and the privileges it brought them.

Speaking for many scientists and engineers who have looked carefully and independently at the science of climate, we have a message to any candidate for public office: There is no compelling scientific argument for drastic action to "decarbonize" the world's economy. Even if one accepts the inflated climate forecasts of the IPCC, aggressive greenhouse-gas control policies are not justified economically.

A recent study of a wide variety of policy options by Yale economist William Nordhaus showed that nearly the highest benefit-to-cost ratio is achieved for a policy that allows 50 more years of economic growth unimpeded by greenhouse gas controls. This would be especially beneficial to the less-developed parts of the world that would like to share some of the same advantages of material well-being, health and life expectancy that the fully developed parts of the world enjoy now. Many other policy responses would have a negative return on investment. And it is likely that more CO2 and the modest warming that may come with it will be an overall benefit to the planet.

If elected officials feel compelled to "do something" about climate, we recommend supporting the excellent scientists who are increasing our understanding of climate with well-designed instruments on satellites, in the oceans and on land, and in the analysis of observational data. The better we understand climate, the better we can cope with its ever-changing nature, which has complicated human life throughout history. However, much of the huge private and government investment in climate is badly in need of critical review.

Every candidate should support rational measures to protect and improve our environment, but it makes no sense at all to back expensive programs that divert resources from real needs and are based on alarming but untenable claims of "incontrovertible" evidence.

Claude Allegre, former director of the Institute for the Study of the Earth, University of Paris; J. Scott Armstrong, cofounder of the Journal of Forecasting and the International Journal of Forecasting; Jan Breslow, head of the Laboratory of Biochemical Genetics and Metabolism, Rockefeller University; Roger Cohen, fellow, American Physical Society; Edward David, member, National Academy of Engineering and National Academy of Sciences; William Happer, professor of physics, Princeton; Michael Kelly, professor of technology, University of Cambridge, U.K.; William Kininmonth, former head of climate research at the Australian Bureau of Meteorology; Richard Lindzen, professor of atmospheric sciences, MIT; James McGrath, professor of chemistry, Virginia Technical University; Rodney Nichols, former president and CEO of the New York Academy of Sciences; Burt Rutan, aerospace engineer, designer of Voyager and SpaceShipOne; Harrison H. Schmitt, Apollo 17 astronaut and former U.S. senator; Nir Shaviv, professor of astrophysics, Hebrew University, Jerusalem; Henk Tennekes, former director, Royal Dutch Meteorological Service; Antonio Zichichi, president of the World Federation of Scientists, Geneva.
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Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • JonnyPistachio
    JonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    inlet13 wrote:
    Interesting article from the wsj.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... Carousel_1

    No Need to Panic About Global Warming

    Speaking for many scientists and engineers who have looked carefully and independently at the science of climate, we have a message to any candidate for public office: There is no compelling scientific argument for drastic action to "decarbonize" the world's economy. Even if one accepts the inflated climate forecasts of the IPCC, aggressive greenhouse-gas control policies are not justified economically.

    I hear all this back and forth about global warming and I just cant believe that the amounts of shit we pump into out atmosphere that it cant have some slight detrimental effect. Maybe its not warming, but wasnt there specific evidence that we put a HOLE in our ozone layer? I know thats not evidence for Global warming, but I see abuse of our environment as a whole.

    Bottom line is, I dont know who to believe, but we need to treat our planet better. And for folks who say that global warming is not happening, I hope that doesnt just give them the idea that chemicals from industry and automobiles are simply OK, and we shouldnt conserve and make a better push for cleaner renewable energy.
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • VINNY GOOMBA
    VINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,826
    I don't doubt man's influence on the environment, climate and weather patterns. With this thread, you're going to create a SHIT STORM :mrgreen:
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    I hear all this back and forth about global warming and I just cant believe that the amounts of shit we pump into out atmosphere that it cant have some slight detrimental effect. Maybe its not warming, but wasnt there specific evidence that we put a HOLE in our ozone layer? I know thats not evidence for Global warming, but I see abuse of our environment as a whole.

    Bottom line is, I dont know who to believe, but we need to treat our planet better. And for folks who say that global warming is not happening, I hope that doesnt just give them the idea that chemicals from industry and automobiles are simply OK, and we shouldnt conserve and make a better push for cleaner renewable energy.

    if you lived anywhere but the US - you would probably have a better understanding of global warming but alas - you live in a country where lies and misinformation and PR campaigns are functional tools in promoting corporate agendas ... for the same reasons why you guys are in multiple wars and why so many people still believe obama was not born in the US - is the reason why you don't understand global warming ...
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,404
    yeah lets all make a bunch of money and in the process fuck up our environment...good plan..... i love the wall street journal..
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    I don't doubt man's influence on the environment, climate and weather patterns. With this thread, you're going to create a SHIT STORM :mrgreen:

    actually - no shit storm ... these threads follow the identical pattern ... OP will post something that speaks to his bias ... we refute it ... we ask to discuss the basic science of global warming ... people leave ... there are at least 100 of these similar threads all ending the same way ... this is just another piece that is not based on any legitimate science whatsoever that is pushed by the fox agenda under the guise of the WSJ ... this is the same playbook they've been using for years ... why not - it works on people ... :(
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Dr. Chris de Freitas

    http://www.desmogblog.com/students-get- ... 1-lectures
    Renowden discovered that Dr de Freitas was using material from retired meteorologist Joe D’Aleo and Christopher Monckton - both advisors to a number of climate denier think-tanks with links to fossil fuel funding.

    Both are advisers to the Science and Public Policy Institute. Also an advisor to the SPPI is Dr David Legates, who was recently asked to step down as Delaware’s state climatologist.

    Dr de Freitas came to prominence when the journal Climate Research, for which he was an editor, published a controversial paper in 2003 by Willie Soon and Sallie Baliunas which argued contemporary climate change was not happening.

    Some 13 of the editors cited in the paper complained they had been misrepresented. The paper prompted the resignation of three members of the editorial board, including editor-in-chief Hans von Storch, who said the research was flawed.

    Earlier this month, it was revealed that Dr Soon’s entire research income since 2002 had come from fossil fuel interests, including the American Petroleum Institute and Southern Company.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    and this took all of 5 mins to refute ... same ole' pattern ... :(
  • inlet13
    inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    polaris_x wrote:
    I don't doubt man's influence on the environment, climate and weather patterns. With this thread, you're going to create a SHIT STORM :mrgreen:

    actually - no shit storm ... these threads follow the identical pattern ... OP will post something that speaks to his bias ... we refute it ... we ask to discuss the basic science of global warming ... people leave ... there are at least 100 of these similar threads all ending the same way ... this is just another piece that is not based on any legitimate science whatsoever that is pushed by the fox agenda under the guise of the WSJ ... this is the same playbook they've been using for years ... why not - it works on people ... :(


    Seriously? This is a political forum. I posted this because it was a different point of view from the typical "Global Warming will kill us tomorrow or next week" rhetoric that's posted here. It's the alternative point of view, that typically gets muffled in these parts. See your posts in this thread. You immediately dismiss it, despite the fact that there are a group of scientists supporting the article. You also immediately dismiss them. Why? It's ironic how the article itself speaks of how these scientists fear speaking out due to backlash... that's not happening in this very thread is it? ;)

    As for me - I posted this strictly because I found it interesting and thought it may provide a good discussion piece for me to read. That's all. I, personally believe, there's an economic (big government) agenda behind Global Warming, and was never quite convinced in it. This article touched on both those elements. So, I figured I would share.

    All that said, I'm very environmentally conscious for other reasons. I think pollution is wrong, so I understand concern over polluting... just not so sure the stuff we breathe out and plants breathe in is going to cause the end of times.

    Enjoy.
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

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  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,404
    polaris_x wrote:
    Dr. Chris de Freitas

    http://www.desmogblog.com/students-get- ... 1-lectures
    Renowden discovered that Dr de Freitas was using material from retired meteorologist Joe D’Aleo and Christopher Monckton - both advisors to a number of climate denier think-tanks with links to fossil fuel funding.

    Both are advisers to the Science and Public Policy Institute. Also an advisor to the SPPI is Dr David Legates, who was recently asked to step down as Delaware’s state climatologist.

    Dr de Freitas came to prominence when the journal Climate Research, for which he was an editor, published a controversial paper in 2003 by Willie Soon and Sallie Baliunas which argued contemporary climate change was not happening.

    Some 13 of the editors cited in the paper complained they had been misrepresented. The paper prompted the resignation of three members of the editorial board, including editor-in-chief Hans von Storch, who said the research was flawed.

    Earlier this month, it was revealed that Dr Soon’s entire research income since 2002 had come from fossil fuel interests, including the American Petroleum Institute and Southern Company.
    ouch....
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • JonnyPistachio
    JonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    polaris_x wrote:
    I hear all this back and forth about global warming and I just cant believe that the amounts of shit we pump into out atmosphere that it cant have some slight detrimental effect. Maybe its not warming, but wasnt there specific evidence that we put a HOLE in our ozone layer? I know thats not evidence for Global warming, but I see abuse of our environment as a whole.

    Bottom line is, I dont know who to believe, but we need to treat our planet better. And for folks who say that global warming is not happening, I hope that doesnt just give them the idea that chemicals from industry and automobiles are simply OK, and we shouldnt conserve and make a better push for cleaner renewable energy.

    if you lived anywhere but the US - you would probably have a better understanding of global warming but alas - you live in a country where lies and misinformation and PR campaigns are functional tools in promoting corporate agendas ... for the same reasons why you guys are in multiple wars and why so many people still believe obama was not born in the US - is the reason why you don't understand global warming ...

    Its not that I dont understand it, I get it and I believe its a problem (I have seen the dozens of threads on here and have mostly sorted through the bullshit)...but you do have a point -- On average, i'll bet most AMericans are misinformed. Likely because its hard to sort through all the shit, and many are only exposed to what lying politicians tell them. There are hundreds of studies and experts that say NO its not happening, then there are hundreds who say YES it is happening. But identifying who says what, for what reasons, is what is important obviously. Corporate agenda gets in the way i'm sure.

    I find it difficult to debate because I dont trust most sources -- Do you have any single easy sources that you most rely on to explain why global warming is happening? Say a source would convince someone on the fence?
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    inlet13 wrote:
    Seriously? This is a political forum. I posted this because it was a different point of view from the typical "Global Warming will kill us tomorrow or next week" rhetoric that's posted here. It's the alternative point of view, that typically gets muffled in these parts. See your posts in this thread. You immediately dismiss it, despite the fact that there are a group of scientists supporting the article. You also immediately dismiss them. Why? It's ironic how the article itself speaks of how these scientists fear speaking out due to backlash... that's not happening in this very thread is it? ;)

    As for me - I posted this strictly because I found it interesting and thought it may provide a good discussion piece for me to read. That's all. I, personally believe, there's an economic (big government) agenda behind Global Warming, and was never quite convinced in it. This article touched on both those elements. So, I figured I would share.

    All that said, I'm very environmentally conscious for other reasons. I think pollution is wrong, so I understand concern over polluting... just not so sure the stuff we breathe out and plants breathe in is going to cause the end of times.

    Enjoy.

    but this isn't a discussion about whether you think we should have the tax rate at x% over another ... your article has been refuted (see previous post) ... what you are posting is lobbyist propaganda - aimed to confuse the public ... it's like me continuing to post that cigarettes are good for your health ... it's simply not factual what you post ... it also touches at the heart of what is wrong with everything ... the use of PR companies and lobbyists to spread lies and mistruths ... these aren't opinions formed from scientific research - these are flat out lies ...
  • inlet13
    inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    polaris_x wrote:
    Dr. Chris de Freitas

    http://www.desmogblog.com/students-get- ... 1-lectures
    Renowden discovered that Dr de Freitas was using material from retired meteorologist Joe D’Aleo and Christopher Monckton - both advisors to a number of climate denier think-tanks with links to fossil fuel funding.

    Both are advisers to the Science and Public Policy Institute. Also an advisor to the SPPI is Dr David Legates, who was recently asked to step down as Delaware’s state climatologist.

    Dr de Freitas came to prominence when the journal Climate Research, for which he was an editor, published a controversial paper in 2003 by Willie Soon and Sallie Baliunas which argued contemporary climate change was not happening.

    Some 13 of the editors cited in the paper complained they had been misrepresented. The paper prompted the resignation of three members of the editorial board, including editor-in-chief Hans von Storch, who said the research was flawed.

    Earlier this month, it was revealed that Dr Soon’s entire research income since 2002 had come from fossil fuel interests, including the American Petroleum Institute and Southern Company.

    What is desmosblog?
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  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Its not that I dont understand it, I get it and I believe its a problem (I have seen the dozens of threads on here and have mostly sorted through the bullshit)...but you do have a point -- On average, i'll bet most AMericans are misinformed. Likely because its hard to sort through all the shit, and many are only exposed to what lying politicians tell them. There are hundreds of studies and experts that say NO its not happening, then there are hundreds who say YES it is happening. But identifying who says what, for what reasons, is what is important obviously. Corporate agenda gets in the way i'm sure.

    I find it difficult to debate because I dont trust most sources -- Do you have any single easy sources that you most rely on to explain why global warming is happening? Say a source would convince someone on the fence?

    what i try to do is get people to go straight to the science ... not the complicated stuff trying to measure the potential impacts - you'll go stir crazy just reading the abstract ... but just the basic scientific principles ...

    it starts with the greenhouse effect ... it's not overly complex and should be easily grasped ... if you believe in the greenhouse effect then the next thing you need to understand is that temperature is the singular most important variable in determining weather (not the only variable but the most influential) ... that's it ... pick away at those two basic principles and see what you come up with ...

    the problem with these threads is that when you ask people to think critically about them or to discuss the science - they're out of here ... all they have is what others tell them and that is the singular most frustrating aspect of it all ... the talking points put forth by the lobbyists to arm these folks in these discussions ... all easily refutable ...
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    inlet13 wrote:
    What is desmosblog?

    some guy's blog ... but he provides all his sources ... all you have to do is click the links ...
  • inlet13
    inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    polaris_x wrote:
    inlet13 wrote:
    What is desmosblog?

    some guy's blog ... but he provides all his sources ... all you have to do is click the links ...

    Yeh, I'm sure there's no bias or hidden interests there. ;)

    So, anyway, you used "some guy's blog" which focused one piece on one guy, to disprove an entire article in a major periodical signed by almost twenty scientists?
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  • inlet13
    inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    I don't doubt man's influence on the environment, climate and weather patterns. With this thread, you're going to create a SHIT STORM :mrgreen:


    ha ha. I didn't mean to cause a shit storm. I figured people "HERE" won't buy it, but was curious of how they would respond. I'm finding out.

    So far, they look up the people and try to say "see this guy's bad". That's why what they say is wrong. Meanwhile, I'm left thinking to myself....

    ...this shows it's a debate (on global warming). Nothing's proven here. But, like the article suggest, if some dissent they are treated like Galileo.
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  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    inlet13 wrote:
    Yeh, I'm sure there's no bias or hidden interests there. ;)

    So, anyway, you used "some guy's blog" which focused one piece on one guy, to disprove an entire article in a major periodical signed by almost twenty scientists?

    oh geez ... dude - you are totally getting played here ... set the ego aside and read through it all ... it's the same old thing ...

    they are all linked ... all these guys used the same research from the same guys ... this is an example of what is happening:

    1. imperial tobacco gives me money to write a "scientific" article that says cigarettes are good for you
    2. I publish it ... the tobacco industry seizes on it and pays a bunch of other people to form other "scientific" articles about it based on it ... and so on and so on ...
    3. they then get OP-Ed type outlets and media friendly (money) to push this agenda

    where is the failsafe in science? ... it's peer-review ... because it's been the achilles of these lobbyists - their new tactic was to discredit the peer-review process ... despite numerous independent agencies saying they did nothing wrong - it worked to continue to fuel the campaign against AGW ...

    what is truly sad - is that in our multiple discussions about this topic spanning several different threads ... you are unwilling to educate yourself on the science of global warming to progress this debate ... rather continue to rely on sources that have no credibility ...

    despite the WSJ being a fox venture and knowing rupert murdoch has close ties with big oil - i didn't refute your article by pointing out its from the WSJ - i did it by discrediting the so called scientists your article was based on ... so, feel free to ignore the info coming from a blog despite that the links to all the studies are there ...
  • StillHere
    StillHere Posts: 7,795
    EVIDENCE:

    it is January 27

    and it is 60 degrees F outside today

    rain and THUNDER!!

    no global warming ? ;)

    its been like this except for a half dozen days at the freezing mark all season long
    peace,
    jo

    http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
    "How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
    "Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    inlet13 wrote:
    I don't doubt man's influence on the environment, climate and weather patterns. With this thread, you're going to create a SHIT STORM :mrgreen:


    ha ha. I didn't mean to cause a shit storm. I figured people "HERE" won't buy it, but was curious of how they would respond. I'm finding out.

    So far, they look up the people and try to say "see this guy's bad". That's why what they say is wrong. Meanwhile, I'm left thinking to myself....

    ...this shows it's a debate (on global warming). Nothing's proven here. But, like the article suggest, if some dissent they are treated like Galileo.

    it's not a debate ... you are posting lies and concluding there is a debate ... huge difference ... but i see now that you have nothing to back up your side ... you want to discredit the response by applying a prejudiced associated with this forum ...