Drumming on the Orpheum Theater show...

BB29347 · April 2011

[quote="CJMST3KI like how Dave does not crowd the songs.[/quote]

I feel the exact opposite. In a live setting, on certain songs, I felt like Dave is doing way too much and it makes the impact of the drums less effective.

This topic really could be debated forever.

CJMST3K · April 2011

BB29347 wrote:

CJMST3K wrote:

like how Dave does not crowd the songs.

I feel the exact opposite. In a live setting, on certain songs, I felt like Dave is doing way too much and it makes the impact of the drums less effective.

This topic really could be debated forever.

Dave on NFY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z7eZGRlKd0

It's simple, tight and uncrowded. Very tight hi hat to keep it dry, then it explodes, then back to tight.

Matt on NFY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNTMPJNeup4

It's loser in beat with many more drum hits going on, and loose on hi hat. The drums are played more generically. It's no longer simple and dry, but warm.

To illustrate the crowding, just look at the space below that the drum hits take for the same song by the two drummers:

Dave's playing in first 8 measures:
Kick, Snare, Kick, Snare, Kick, Snare, Kick, Snare, Kick, Snare, Kick, Snare, Kick, Snare, Kick, Snare.

Matt's playing in first 8 measures:
Kick, Snare, Kick, Kick, Snare, Kick, Kick, Snare, Kick, Kick, Snare, Kick, Snare, Kick, Kick, Snare, Kick, Kick, Snare, Kick, Snare, Kick.

Dave is playing 16 drum strikes in the 8 measures.
Matt is playing 22 drum strikes in the 8 measures.

So Matt is crowding the songs with lots more drum strikes, on what used to be a very simple, straight forward, angry song. And not in a way that contributes to the song. It dilutes the impact, as Matt's drumming is very generic on it. Now it's halfway to a ballad like Light Years.

Listen to Light Years drumming at the beginning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-AwjBxZeD4

It's practically the same way that he plays NFY.

IMO, it dilutes what was once a very intense, simple song with crowding and generic playing.

fox_mulderX · April 2011

STT757 wrote:

jets521 wrote:

evenflow82 wrote:

I love Dave A., am cool with Matt but man, Jack's like stuff with the band is just painful. It's like an old tired man trying to run a sprint; he can't keep up.

I read Uncle Neil Young was blown away by Jack's drumming during the Mirrorball sessions/tour.

its a never ending cycle of debate.

I think Uncle Neil was trying to be supportive to Pearl Jam, remember Jack Irons was booed when introduced at some of the '95 shows including Voters for Choice in Washington DC. I have that bootleg, Jack was not welcomed with open arms by the fans.

I've seen Jack live with Pearl Jam twice, and I've probably listened to every show he played with them on a bootleg or through Pearl Jam radio. He was cool for the No Code songs, but he never got any of the Ten, Vs. and Vitalogy songs down. Dave took the Ten songs and made them his own, Matt came aboard in 1998 and immediately mastered the catalog. Just go and listen to Matt on "Live on Two Legs", he never sounded better than that first tour.

Jack made it ok for Pearl Jam to become sloppy, some real sloppy shows with Jack.

jack irons was booed from the bitter fans who wanted dave a back. i'm not sure if that's what you were trying to get across, but i thought i'd throw that in there just in case people thought he was booed for other reasons.

in my opinion, jack irons was their best drummer. he did more with less. his kit was 1/3 of dave a's and yet the sound he created was much fuller. i love dave's work, but i like jack's sound so much more. very john bonham-ish.
i respect matt cameron. he's a great drummer and the band is really tight when playing with him.... but he's boring.

yosi · April 2011

CJMST3K wrote:

Well, given that the song wasn't out for too long before Dave A was let go, I wouldn't begrudge him that the band wasn't jamming too long on a lot of the songs. After they toured extensively with Sonic Youth, that's when PJ really developed a long-jam approach, but this was post-Dave. He didn't crowd songs like Evenflow with unnecessary drum solos... though I actually would have loved to have seen Dave play a drum solo. But it's kinda a grandiose thing, and isn't needed to have great drumming apparent.

I like how Dave does not crowd the songs. Matt definitely shines for moments here and there but is fairly flat for the majority of the early songs. A groove that is good but not great; a one-size-fits-all approach to the hi-hat. I'd rather enjoy the songs to their fullest for 95% and not have those fleeting short moments, rather than hear flat drums with moments of inspirational improvisation.

It's all about the groove. Dave had tremendous tight groove on the first three albums. Jack had a loose groove on the fourth and fifth albums. And Matt is very creative on his own PJ material, and actually really cool to drum to his stuff that HE wrote, but he doesn't have Dave's tight and funk oriented groove, nor Jack's delicate loose groove for the first five albums. I'd wish the band would bury the first five albums, and only play Matt material. It just suits Matt's playing best to just play his material.

No disagreement on the funk oriented groove that Dave brought, I love it. It's especially clear on songs like Even Flow, which I love how Dave played. And you're right, sometimes Matt's playing is a little too similar on lots of songs, at least for the main beat. It's something I've noticed a lot. The basic beat on Even Flow is basically transposed on a lot of other (generally older) songs.

In terms of groove (or lack there of) I often think of Matt as much more similar to prog-rock drummers. Super technically proficient, but hammering out the grooviness and moving towards more "flat" drumming.

For me I think it works on a lot of the songs. Like I said before Corduroy, and many of the other songs on Vitalogy. I just find a lot of the album work to be bland. And perhaps you're right, maybe Dave just didn't get enough of an opportunity to expand and improvise on those songs, but I think a lot of them have a better sound with Matt. I actually prefer his drumming on NFY to Dave's.

But whatever, to each his/her own.

And I definitely agree with you that Matt shines the most on the material he wrote. I think his playing on everything beginning with Binaural is much more inspired and interesting than what he does on most of the the music before.

Just to play the other side of the debate, one song I think Matt's drumming totally ruins is Dissident. He totally hammers out the groove into a totally "flat" beat.

CJMST3K · April 2011

fox_mulderX wrote:

jack irons was booed from the bitter fans who wanted dave a back. i'm not sure if that's what you were trying to get across, but i thought i'd throw that in there just in case people thought he was booed for other reasons.

I don't think boo-ing would have been from people wanting Dave A back. I think it was from Jack's performance. Ultimately, if things sounded how the fans wanted them to sound, there would be no reason to boo.

In all fairness, Jack didn't really know the songs well. Here's SOLAT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e2QOxa3wbo

One comment from this video is "It sounds like Jack is playing 'Last Exit' and the rest of the band is playing 'SOLAT'", and I can't disagree.

Act Of Love and "jack songs" sound great, but the pre-Jack songs sound quite sloppy.

yosi · April 2011

CJMST3K wrote:

fox_mulderX wrote:

jack irons was booed from the bitter fans who wanted dave a back. i'm not sure if that's what you were trying to get across, but i thought i'd throw that in there just in case people thought he was booed for other reasons.

I don't think boo-ing would have been from people wanting Dave A back. I think it was from Jack's performance. Ultimately, if things sounded how the fans wanted them to sound, there would be no reason to boo.

In all fairness, Jack didn't really know the songs well. Here's SOLAT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e2QOxa3wbo

One comment from this video is "It sounds like Jack is playing 'Last Exit' and the rest of the band is playing 'SOLAT'", and I can't disagree.

Act Of Love and "jack songs" sound great, but the pre-Jack songs sound quite sloppy.

Wow, sounds like he never played that song before. Especially the part right before the guitar at the "hey nananana".

That comment is pretty spot on.

CJMST3K · April 2011

yosi wrote:

CJMST3K wrote:

fox_mulderX wrote:

jack irons was booed from the bitter fans who wanted dave a back. i'm not sure if that's what you were trying to get across, but i thought i'd throw that in there just in case people thought he was booed for other reasons.

I don't think boo-ing would have been from people wanting Dave A back. I think it was from Jack's performance. Ultimately, if things sounded how the fans wanted them to sound, there would be no reason to boo.

In all fairness, Jack didn't really know the songs well. Here's SOLAT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e2QOxa3wbo

One comment from this video is "It sounds like Jack is playing 'Last Exit' and the rest of the band is playing 'SOLAT'", and I can't disagree.

Act Of Love and "jack songs" sound great, but the pre-Jack songs sound quite sloppy.

Wow, sounds like he never played that song before. Especially the part right before the guitar at the "hey nananana".

That comment is pretty spot on.

Back in '95 when I heard the DC bootleg, my heart really sank. I really loved the energy that Dave's playing had, and I totally missed that. He really sounded like he didn't know the songs very well, and he is kinda limited on what he does know how to play. It was about the sonics, not the person sitting in the chair.

Here's a video of Ed talking with Jack about how he wants him to play drums:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVR2NvOntG4

Umbertotamba · April 2011

CJMST3K wrote:

fox_mulderX wrote:

jack irons was booed from the bitter fans who wanted dave a back. i'm not sure if that's what you were trying to get across, but i thought i'd throw that in there just in case people thought he was booed for other reasons.

I don't think boo-ing would have been from people wanting Dave A back. I think it was from Jack's performance. Ultimately, if things sounded how the fans wanted them to sound, there would be no reason to boo.

In all fairness, Jack didn't really know the songs well. Here's SOLAT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e2QOxa3wbo

One comment from this video is "It sounds like Jack is playing 'Last Exit' and the rest of the band is playing 'SOLAT'", and I can't disagree.

Act Of Love and "jack songs" sound great, but the pre-Jack songs sound quite sloppy.

I think you nailed that.

Also I think each of the Pearl Jam Drummers are like your children. You can't love 1 more than the other and they each made Pearl Jams sound what it was at the time. I would however gave Dave A one or 2 presents more than the others on his Birthday!!

CJMST3K · April 2011

Umbertotamba wrote:

CJMST3K wrote:

fox_mulderX wrote:

jack irons was booed from the bitter fans who wanted dave a back. i'm not sure if that's what you were trying to get across, but i thought i'd throw that in there just in case people thought he was booed for other reasons.

I don't think boo-ing would have been from people wanting Dave A back. I think it was from Jack's performance. Ultimately, if things sounded how the fans wanted them to sound, there would be no reason to boo.

In all fairness, Jack didn't really know the songs well. Here's SOLAT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e2QOxa3wbo

One comment from this video is "It sounds like Jack is playing 'Last Exit' and the rest of the band is playing 'SOLAT'", and I can't disagree.

Act Of Love and "jack songs" sound great, but the pre-Jack songs sound quite sloppy.

I think you nailed that.

Also I think each of the Pearl Jam Drummers are like your children. You can't love 1 more than the other and they each made Pearl Jams sound what it was at the time. I would however gave Dave A one or 2 presents more than the others on his Birthday!!

STT757 · April 2011

There are a few more examples from the '95 tour where Jack is really lost, Salt Lake City and the Fan Club show prior to the Asia tour. Even the legendary Soldier field show is not very tight. Not to say there were not good shows with Jack, I saw them on Randall's Island night two which was epic although "Rats" was a mess. Also from '96 the Check Point Charlie Berlin show is fantastic.

Drumming on the Orpheum Theater show...

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