Kurt.....did Courtney do it?
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He was murdered. I believe Courtney was behind it. One cannot wipe their fingerprints off of a gun after they are dead.
I also believe his friend Dylan had a big hand in it, especially since he bought the gun and the bullets, and when he took the PI through the Cobain home in search of Kurt, the only room he didn't take him to was the room above the garage.<b>One good thing about music, when it hits you, you feel no pain</b> <i>~Bob Marley</i>0 -
facepollution wrote:You know it was initially investigated as a murder, right? Obviously the police found nothing in the end to make them believe it was though.
Plus, why would someone intent on killing him and trying to pass it off as a suicide, bother to use a gun when they could have just injected him with a massive dose of heroin and been done with it? Use of a gun would have meant the alleged murderer would have needed to have knowledge of forensic stuff like blood spatter.
I would be careful taking anything Tom Grant says as being fact, he's just a guy with a theory. What's to say he's telling the truth? Just because he appears more sane than Courtney, doesn't mean he doesn't have an agenda. I think this is my biggest problem with the whole Kurt murder conspiracy - it's so driven by people's hate for Courtney, people think because she's erratic and a bitch that she must automatically be capable of murder - and so people take one guy's word over scientific evidence, facts and pure common sense.
I was actually one of those teen girls who thought Courtney was amazing. I was a fan of Hole, thought she was beautiful, and bought into the suicide thing...until I started looking further into it. For me, it's not only the work that Tom Grant has done. I'm currently reading a book called Love & Death The Murder of Kurt Cobain, and it has some very revealing points as well.<b>One good thing about music, when it hits you, you feel no pain</b> <i>~Bob Marley</i>0 -
Courtney is a pretty unlikable person, but I feel sorry for her. No one deserves the crap she gets for being Kurt's wife. People accuse her of murder and stealing his ideas. She doesn't seem to get a break. Plus her asshole dad says he thinks she killed Kurt too. No wonder she is so fucked up with a dad like that.
Also, I hate George Bush too, but he wasn't behind 9/11.When FASCISM Comes To America
it will be wrapped in the FLAG and
carrying a CROSS.0 -
It's easy to distort the facts and scew them to point the finger at murder but the most credible evidence we have is Cobain's mental state, which points to suicide IMO0
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ForceofNature101 wrote:It's easy to distort the facts and scew them to point the finger at murder but the most credible evidence we have is Cobain's mental state, which points to suicide IMO
so, since I suffer from anxiety and depression, if I'm murdered, the fact that I have depression is "evidence" towards it being suicide?
Hardly.
I've got to get back to my daughters, but I'll post the evidence I speak of later on.Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 20140 -
facepollution wrote:Paul David wrote:of course he was suicidal. that's obvious. and a great alibi.
from what I've read and watched, there's just too much freaking evidence to the contrary. and to whomever said that the greenhouse he was found in was locked from the inside, source please? that's the first I had heard of that, and that well, would obviously make it a suicide for SURE.
You know it was initially investigated as a murder, right? Obviously the police found nothing in the end to make them believe it was though.
Plus, why would someone intent on killing him and trying to pass it off as a suicide, bother to use a gun when they could have just injected him with a massive dose of heroin and been done with it? Use of a gun would have meant the alleged murderer would have needed to have knowledge of forensic stuff like blood spatter.
I would be careful taking anything Tom Grant says as being fact, he's just a guy with a theory. What's to say he's telling the truth? Just because he appears more sane than Courtney, doesn't mean he doesn't have an agenda. I think this is my biggest problem with the whole Kurt murder conspiracy - it's so driven by people's hate for Courtney, people think because she's erratic and a bitch that she must automatically be capable of murder - and so people take one guy's word over scientific evidence, facts and pure common sense.
nice post. i've read books and seen some documentaries on this theory. there seems to be no phsyical evidence to prove that it wasn't a suicide, but i think no one can really no for sure. there is certainly some interesting points to suggest he may have been murdered. that said....this quote from you..."Plus, why would someone intent on killing him and trying to pass it off as a suicide, bother to use a gun when they could have just injected him with a massive dose of heroin and been done with it? Use of a gun would have meant the alleged murderer would have needed to have knowledge of forensic stuff like blood spatter."...very interesting. i don't think i've ever heard that brought up, or maybe i did and just forgot about it. but it's a great point.0 -
facepollution wrote:What scientific evidence are you talking about?
he had too much heroin in his system to operate a shotgun. even a hardcore drug addict, as experts state, would have been immediately incapacitated. he wouldn't have been able to hold the damn thing, never mind pull the trigger.
the credit card was missing from his wallet, and was being used after he died.
he was not baricaded in the room. false.
the suicide note was a note to his fans about quitting the music business. the part about his daughter and his wife was not his handwriting.Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 20140 -
let me state something very clearly: I am not saying I definitely think Courtney did it. I am merely raising the question, and the reason I did was because I was having a few drinks and reminiscing about Nirvana.
I have read Tom Grant's website up and down, and a lot of it he spins in his own convenient way. But you can't argue with a few key points that this is not an open and shut case.Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 20140 -
Honestly, Courtney would have kept him around long enough to write another albums worth of tunes to follow up Live Through This.
"Hello Oregonians. Hello Washingtonians. Hello Portland..where the fuck are we? We're in Ridgefield!"0 -
Paul David wrote:facepollution wrote:What scientific evidence are you talking about?
he had too much heroin in his system to operate a shotgun. even a hardcore drug addict, as experts state, would have been immediately incapacitated. he wouldn't have been able to hold the damn thing, never mind pull the trigger.
the credit card was missing from his wallet, and was being used after he died.
he was not baricaded in the room. false.
the suicide note was a note to his fans about quitting the music business. the part about his daughter and his wife was not his handwriting.
I said SCIENTIFIC!!!!!!
The amount of heroin in his system has been debated for a long time, and there is no conclusive answer as to whether he would have been capable of pulling the trigger or not. Experts have never been in agreement, some say they have seen people manage to keep it together on even larger doses.
The credit card use has also been attributed to one of his junkie friends, if he was gonna kill himself why would he care who had it, perhaps it was stolen?
The room baricaded - no conclusive proof ever given on that one.
The suicide note - handwriting experts are not all in agreement as to whether the second part was his writing or not. It is perfectly possible that he wrote the last part AFTER the huge dose of heroin he shot up, which would account for the sloppy writing.
So none of the points you brought up are really 'scientific evidence', or even common sense for that matter.
If Courtney Love had the personality of say Dave Grohl, and was a bit out spoken, a little bit cheeky but overall quite likable, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.Post edited by facepollution on0 -
Lifted wrote:nice post. i've read books and seen some documentaries on this theory. there seems to be no phsyical evidence to prove that it wasn't a suicide, but i think no one can really no for sure. there is certainly some interesting points to suggest he may have been murdered. that said....this quote from you..."Plus, why would someone intent on killing him and trying to pass it off as a suicide, bother to use a gun when they could have just injected him with a massive dose of heroin and been done with it? Use of a gun would have meant the alleged murderer would have needed to have knowledge of forensic stuff like blood spatter."...very interesting. i don't think i've ever heard that brought up, or maybe i did and just forgot about it. but it's a great point.
Yeah people forget the technical stuff like blood spatter. If someone wanted to shoot him and make it look like a suicide, presumably one or two people would have had to hold him up while he was struggling, put the gun in his mouth, pull the trigger, and then hope that none of them were standing in the direction of blood spatter or blood flow. And all of this would obviously have been pretty last minute, since Kurt left the rehab centre of his own volition and flew back to Seattle on a time frame that he decided.
Since his death was initially investigated as a possible murder, any inconsistencies in forensic aspects of the death scene would have been heavily scrutinised - yet nothing inconsistent was found.0 -
Empty Glass wrote:pjfaninindiana wrote:I do believe he was murdered.
As do I.
me too..........
............ and the murderers name is kurt cobain.hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say0 -
Yeah, I think it was suicide. The heroin thing...I think it would make perfect sense for him to get high before doing it. And, I have no personal experience with heroin, but he probably had a high tolerance and wasn't to the incapacitated, comatose stage so I don't think any levels would automatically rule out suicide. Plus, the suicide note...it just all points to suicide. It was sad, and it was a terrible thing. It makes me sad to know that he was that unhappy and disillusioned.0
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watch the film "Kurt and Courtney" - sheds some light on this a little more kind of, if you haven't seen it already.Post edited by red mos onPJ: 10/14/00 06/09/03 10/4/09 11/15/13 11/16/13 10/08/14
EV Solo: 7/11/11 11/12/12 11/13/120 -
courney was cheating on kurt and he was going to get a divorce before he was shotBridge Benefit 1994, San Francisco 1995, San Diego 1995 1 & 2, Missoula 1998, Los Angeles 2000, San Diego 2000, Eddie Vedder/Beck 2/26/2002, Santa Barbara 2003, Irvine 2003, San Diego 2003, Vancouver 2005, Gorge 2005, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006 1 & 2, Santa Barbara 2006, Eddie Vedder 4/10/08, Eddie Vedder 4/12/08, Eddie Vedder 4/15/08, 7/12/2008, SF 8/28/09, LA 9/30/09, LA 10/1/09, LA 10/06/09, LA 10/07/09, San Diego 10/09/09, Eddie Vedder 7/6/2011, Eddie Vedder 7/8/2011, PJ20 9/3/2011, PJ20 9/4/2011, Vancouver 9/25/2011, San Diego 11/21/13, LA 11/24/13, Ohana 9/25/21, Ohana 9/26/21, Ohana 10/1/21, EV 2/17/22, LA Forum 5/6/22, LA Forum 5/7/22, EV 10/1/22, EV 9/30/230
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hmm. didn't know that one. She was not smart.PJammer4life wrote:courney was cheating on kurt and he was going to get a divorce before he was shot
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"In "Kurt and Courtney", Love's father claimed that on Kurt's birthday in February 20th 1994, Love was cheating on Cobain in London with Billy Corgan, lead singer of The Smashing Pumpkins (7). Cross, however, uses language to imply that Love was merely on promotional business in London, and avoids stating that Love did in fact meet Corgan at all. When he quotes Cobain as being suicidal a few days later (and Kurt did in fact make a very serious attempt not even two weeks later) because Love had cheated on him with Corgan, Cross follows this accusation with the word "allegedly", in a pathetic and transparent attempt to try to deflect criticism from Love.
By April 1st 1994, four days before his suicide, Cobain had returned to his home in Seattle. On this date, the nanny of the house, "Cali" spoke to Love by telephone, who was still in Los Angeles. The story that Cross recants (from Love) is that Cali failed to mention that Cobain was back at home, so she scoured heroin dealers in LA for Cobain, and in the event, injected some, and was therefore incapacitated and unable to co-ordinate the search properly."
Courtney did hook up with Corgan after Kurt's death as well. Hell they even wrote an album together. Maybe finding out about her cheating is what caused him to attempt his first suicide.Post edited by PJammer4life onBridge Benefit 1994, San Francisco 1995, San Diego 1995 1 & 2, Missoula 1998, Los Angeles 2000, San Diego 2000, Eddie Vedder/Beck 2/26/2002, Santa Barbara 2003, Irvine 2003, San Diego 2003, Vancouver 2005, Gorge 2005, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006 1 & 2, Santa Barbara 2006, Eddie Vedder 4/10/08, Eddie Vedder 4/12/08, Eddie Vedder 4/15/08, 7/12/2008, SF 8/28/09, LA 9/30/09, LA 10/1/09, LA 10/06/09, LA 10/07/09, San Diego 10/09/09, Eddie Vedder 7/6/2011, Eddie Vedder 7/8/2011, PJ20 9/3/2011, PJ20 9/4/2011, Vancouver 9/25/2011, San Diego 11/21/13, LA 11/24/13, Ohana 9/25/21, Ohana 9/26/21, Ohana 10/1/21, EV 2/17/22, LA Forum 5/6/22, LA Forum 5/7/22, EV 10/1/22, EV 9/30/230 -
that makes it even more tragic. She knew how fragile he was. But dag they were both messed up. She wasn't a bright one, that girl.PJammer4life wrote:"In "Kurt and Courtney", Love's father claimed that on Kurt's birthday in February 20th 1994, Love was cheating on Cobain in London with Billy Corgan, lead singer of The Smashing Pumpkins (7). Cross, however, uses language to imply that Love was merely on promotional business in London, and avoids stating that Love did in fact meet Corgan at all. When he quotes Cobain as being suicidal a few days later (and Kurt did in fact make a very serious attempt not even two weeks later) because Love had cheated on him with Corgan, Cross follows this accusation with the word "allegedly", in a pathetic and transparent attempt to try to deflect criticism from Love.
By April 1st 1994, four days before his suicide, Cobain had returned to his home in Seattle. On this date, the nanny of the house, "Cali" spoke to Love by telephone, who was still in Los Angeles. The story that Cross recants (from Love) is that Cali failed to mention that Cobain was back at home, so she scoured heroin dealers in LA for Cobain, and in the event, injected some, and was therefore incapacitated and unable to co-ordinate the search properly."
Courtney did hook up with Corgan after Kurt's death as well. Hell they even wrote an album together. Maybe finding out about here cheating is what caused him to attempt his fisrt suicide.0 -
facepollution wrote:I said SCIENTIFIC!!!!!!
The amount of heroin in his system has been debated for a long time, and there is no conclusive answer as to whether he would have been capable of pulling the trigger or not. Experts have never been in agreement, some say they have seen people manage to keep it together on even larger doses.
The credit card use has also been attributed to one of his junkie friends, if he was gonna kill himself why would he care who had it, perhaps it was stolen?
The room baricaded - no conclusive proof ever given on that one.
The suicide note - handwriting experts are not all in agreement as to whether the second part was his writing or not. It is perfectly possible that he wrote the last part AFTER the huge dose of heroin he shot up, which would account for the sloppy writing.
So none of the points you brought up are really 'scientific evidence', or even common sense for that matter.
If Courtney Love had the personality of say Dave Grohl, and was a bit out spoken, a little bit cheeky but overall quite likable, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
and your big shred of "scientific" evidence is that he was sad all the time. Yeah, great conclusion.
Look, I'll say it AGAIN. I never said I believe she did it. I'm just posing the question, ok? And thanks for the little dig at the end, buddy, the common sense comment, real nice.
And you assume that I don't like Courtney. Where did I say that?Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 20140 -
and furthermore, FP, you are so quick to discredit all of my evidence, yet every single one you state it is inconclusive either way. so you can't prove it either, can you? you are basing your conclusion that it was suicide simply because it was not proven otherwise.
yeah, the cops ruled it a suicide. great. and cops didn't completely fuck up the OJ invesitgation, either right, so we should think that all cops are perfect.Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 20140
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