Why isn't abortion considered murder?

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  • bennett13
    bennett13 Posts: 439
    Some say life begins at conception. Others say life begins at birth. Personally, I split the baby (pun intended) in my belief that life begins when the heart starts beating.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    redrock wrote:
    As you say - your belief. For you any fertilised egg that has not come to a full term pregnancy with a live birth is a lost soul. Maybe that's the way you deal with something that, at the time seemed right but now you regret. Belief doesn't really have a place in science. Morals - perhaps/yes, religious beliefs - no. For the scientific/medical world decisions cannot be made on the basis of a religious concept.

    he still stands... christian holy spirit thing a ma jigger. Consciousness is very different - it's your 'definition'. I think that the christians are the only one with an 'eternal soul' (a gift of god of some kind). Certainly Buddhism doesn't have that concept. It's more the concept of consciousness - just a continuation of awareness.
    I am not a religious person you confuse me with someone else.

    Often people don't differentiate spiritual people from religious.

    There is always a place for a heart redrock...to feel instead of think.
    Perhaps not in the scientific logical world but for most people it is how we grow.
    I was speaking of my beliefs not science.
    Something very much related to the act of abortion, feelings, not logic as the only consideration.

    My abortion has nothing to do with my belief of the soul being chosen at conception.
    To deal with my abortion as you put it, I say to heal, I had to forgive myself and make peace.
    Not change my belief of souls.

    My words were not to start a debate it was to hopefully arouse the heart.
    Something everyone can use when making choices and exploring their beliefs in life.
  • he still stands
    he still stands Posts: 2,835
    pandora wrote:
    he still stands wrote:
    I'm still trying to figure out this whole "soul" thing. Is that your consciousness? Or is it like the christian Holy Spirit thing a ma jigger?

    Is this the only choices ;)

    it has nothing to do with religion or consciousness if anything more with the subconscious

    Your path will lead you to your answers and your beliefs may just be a bump in the road

    I don't know what a "subconscious" is either... it isn't an academic or scientific term but sort of a new age or religious term that has no precise meaning as far as I can tell. I know what consciousness is... and i know what the unconscious is... but subconscious? Meaningless...

    That's my problem with this whole thing about not worrying about science, the facts, learning the difference between the definition between LIFE and PERSONHOOD... WE HAVE TO CLEAN UP OUR LANGUAGE!!! You can't just say that the meaning is intrinsic or that your opinion is "common sense" if we're going to have a rational debate on... well... anything.

    is there a "beating a dead horse" emoticon???
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    he still stands wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    he still stands wrote:
    I'm still trying to figure out this whole "soul" thing. Is that your consciousness? Or is it like the christian Holy Spirit thing a ma jigger?

    Is this the only choices ;)

    it has nothing to do with religion or consciousness if anything more with the subconscious

    Your path will lead you to your answers and your beliefs may just be a bump in the road

    I don't know what a "subconscious" is either... it isn't an academic or scientific term but sort of a new age or religious term that has no precise meaning as far as I can tell. I know what consciousness is... and i know what the unconscious is... but subconscious? Meaningless...

    That's my problem with this whole thing about not worrying about science, the facts, learning the difference between the definition between LIFE and PERSONHOOD... WE HAVE TO CLEAN UP OUR LANGUAGE!!! You can't just say that the meaning is intrinsic or that your opinion is "common sense" if we're going to have a rational debate on... well... anything.

    is there a "beating a dead horse" emoticon???
    I feel the same on the beating horse thing...poor damn thing! :lol:

    and my point here is a different perspective on abortion.

    It is not only a logical choice for the parents involved it is also emotional.
    We do feel, all of us , even the scientific world.

    As I said it's not a debatable subject...one's beliefs. One's beliefs is the driving force behind abortion.
    It is our personal morals, for some, religious beliefs, but not just logic.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    pandora wrote:
    redrock wrote:
    As you say - your belief. For you any fertilised egg that has not come to a full term pregnancy with a live birth is a lost soul. Maybe that's the way you deal with something that, at the time seemed right but now you regret. Belief doesn't really have a place in science. Morals - perhaps/yes, religious beliefs - no. For the scientific/medical world decisions cannot be made on the basis of a religious concept.

    he still stands... christian holy spirit thing a ma jigger. Consciousness is very different - it's your 'definition'. I think that the christians are the only one with an 'eternal soul' (a gift of god of some kind). Certainly Buddhism doesn't have that concept. It's more the concept of consciousness - just a continuation of awareness.
    I am not a religious person you confuse me with someone else.

    Often people don't differentiate spiritual people from religious.

    There is always a place for a heart redrock...to feel instead of think.
    Perhaps not in the scientific logical world but for most people it is how we grow.
    I was speaking of my beliefs not science.
    Something very much related to the act of abortion, feelings, not logic as the only consideration.

    My abortion has nothing to do with my belief of the soul being chosen at conception.
    To deal with my abortion as you put it, I say to heal, I had to forgive myself and make peace.
    Not change my belief of souls.

    My words were not to start a debate it was to hopefully arouse the heart.
    Something everyone can use when making choices and exploring their beliefs in life.

    Well... confusing spiritualism and religion, I am not. You speak of soul and soul is a religious concept. And yes, of course, there is always a place for a heart. Let's not be patronising. Also, it has been mentioned a number of times in this thread that emotions are more often than not part of the process of abortion. But, for a debate on a scientific matter, it's facts that need to be looked at, not any airy fairy concept (whatever the scientific matter may be) that one may wish to come up with.

    But as said, the subject of this thread has been debated ad nauseum.

    Guess he still stands can start a thread on soul/consciousness, etc. if he wishes.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    redrock wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    redrock wrote:
    As you say - your belief. For you any fertilised egg that has not come to a full term pregnancy with a live birth is a lost soul. Maybe that's the way you deal with something that, at the time seemed right but now you regret. Belief doesn't really have a place in science. Morals - perhaps/yes, religious beliefs - no. For the scientific/medical world decisions cannot be made on the basis of a religious concept.

    he still stands... christian holy spirit thing a ma jigger. Consciousness is very different - it's your 'definition'. I think that the christians are the only one with an 'eternal soul' (a gift of god of some kind). Certainly Buddhism doesn't have that concept. It's more the concept of consciousness - just a continuation of awareness.
    I am not a religious person you confuse me with someone else.

    Often people don't differentiate spiritual people from religious.

    There is always a place for a heart redrock...to feel instead of think.
    Perhaps not in the scientific logical world but for most people it is how we grow.
    I was speaking of my beliefs not science.
    Something very much related to the act of abortion, feelings, not logic as the only consideration.

    My abortion has nothing to do with my belief of the soul being chosen at conception.
    To deal with my abortion as you put it, I say to heal, I had to forgive myself and make peace.
    Not change my belief of souls.

    My words were not to start a debate it was to hopefully arouse the heart.
    Something everyone can use when making choices and exploring their beliefs in life.

    Well... confusing spiritualism and religion, I am not. You speak of soul and soul is a religious concept. And yes, of course, there is always a place for a heart. Let's not be patronising. Also, it has been mentioned a number of times in this thread that emotions are more often than not part of the process of abortion. But, for a debate on a scientific matter, it's facts that need to be looked at, not any airy fairy concept (whatever the scientific matter may be) that one may wish to come up with.

    But as said, the subject of this thread has been debated ad nauseum.

    Guess he still stands can start a thread on soul/consciousness, etc. if he wishes.
    Soul is not only a religious concept...God is not only a religious concept.
    There are many who believe in God and souls but not in MAN made religions.

    This thread may have gone scientific for some but that wasn't the intent of the OP
    I'm pretty sure, it is how some tried to fight the thought of murder..

    You say you and I were talking science..
    I haven't through this thread.
    In my opinion science is irrelevant in regards to abortion.
    Only one's beliefs and moral fiber which for me is not a debatable subject.
    If anything it is a sharing subject.

    I was making a heart felt tribute to my child and my situation,
    when you called me out with a logical debate. Kind of cold.
    This why I mentioned a heart was needed,
    not to patronize,
    but to say hearts are needed as much as brains,
    probably much more considering the state of our world.

    And definitely needed when choosing between life and death.
  • Suzi78
    Suzi78 Posts: 362
    So if I poach a fertilized egg, will I be eating a poached egg or a poached chicken? Just wondering...
    How I choose to feel is how I am
  • arq
    arq Posts: 8,101
    Suzi78 wrote:
    So if I poach a fertilized egg, will I be eating a poached egg or a poached chicken? Just wondering...

    You'll be eating a non developed fry chicken.
    "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it"
    Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
  • pdalowsky
    pdalowsky Doncaster,UK Posts: 15,214
    Suzi78 wrote:
    So if I poach a fertilized egg, will I be eating a poached egg or a poached chicken? Just wondering...

    its a poached egg.....

    definitely....

    isnt it?
  • nuffingman
    nuffingman Posts: 3,014
    Suzi78 wrote:
    So if I poach a fertilized egg, will I be eating a poached egg or a poached chicken? Just wondering...
    Whatever it is I'll have mine with toast please.
    Thanks
  • arq
    arq Posts: 8,101
    nuffingman wrote:
    Suzi78 wrote:
    So if I poach a fertilized egg, will I be eating a poached egg or a poached chicken? Just wondering...
    Whatever it is I'll have mine with toast please.
    Thanks

    Chicken killer!
    "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it"
    Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    arq wrote:
    nuffingman wrote:
    Suzi78 wrote:
    So if I poach a fertilized egg, will I be eating a poached egg or a poached chicken? Just wondering...
    Whatever it is I'll have mine with toast please.
    Thanks

    Chicken killer!
    I agree chicken killer!! :lol:

    make that sunny side up extra pepper please :D
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    pandora wrote:
    Soul is not only a religious concept...God is not only a religious concept.
    Whilst there isn't real consensus as to what god is, it's definitely a religious concept. You should know, you speak enough of god and jesus.
    pandora wrote:
    You say you and I were talking science..
    Really? Where?
    pandora wrote:
    In my opinion science is irrelevant in regards to abortion.
    I beg to differ here.
    pandora wrote:
    If anything it is a sharing subject.

    Sharing of what? Opinions? Facts? Experiences? Any debate is that. Though what were Heidijam's motive starting this thread... hmmmmm......

    Anyway, I'm done now. It was more interesting when the disabled turtles made an appearance.
  • he still stands
    he still stands Posts: 2,835
    pandora wrote:
    As I said it's not a debatable subject...one's beliefs. One's beliefs is the driving force behind abortion.
    It is our personal morals, for some, religious beliefs, but not just logic.

    I definitely agree with this. And it is an emotional subject as you say... and it does come down to beliefs, morality, etc. My points previously were meant to correct statements that were false from a scientific standpoint that were made as "evidence" that abortion is murder or whatever.

    For those reasons, we cannot have government get involved. It should be up to the individual.

    If people want to tell us why abortions are bad (I agree that they are) that is fine... but making them "illegal" is a very very bad idea.
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    redrock wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    Soul is not only a religious concept...God is not only a religious concept.
    Whilst there isn't real consensus as to what god is, it's definitely a religious concept. You should know, you speak enough of god and jesus.
    pandora wrote:
    You say you and I were talking science..
    Really? Where?
    pandora wrote:
    In my opinion science is irrelevant in regards to abortion.
    I beg to differ here.
    pandora wrote:
    If anything it is a sharing subject.

    Sharing of what? Opinions? Facts? Experiences? Any debate is that. Though what were Heidijam's motive starting this thread... hmmmmm......

    Anyway, I'm done now. It was more interesting when the disabled turtles made an appearance.
    you said this
    But, for a debate on a scientific matter, it's facts that need to be looked at, not any airy fairy concept (whatever the scientific matter may be) that one may wish to come up with.

    Sorry sounds like you thought we were debating scientifically to me

    Yes I speak of God because I believe and
    Jesus I do not speak much of because I know little of him.

    I speak of love far more redrock but you know this...you just choose to not hear it.

    actually I read little or none from anyone, including you, sharing their experiences with abortion.

    I read foolish analogies not relating to human life

    I read opinions based solely on logic, almost nothing from the heart.

    My only point which you fail to understand or do not want to take into consideration
    is that abortion, in my opinion, is a matter of the heart.
    It is based in morals and ones basic beliefs which are not debatable, only shared.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    Oop... I did say I was done, but hey.. I can't let this go by.
    pandora wrote:
    you said this
    But, for a debate on a scientific matter, it's facts that need to be looked at, not any airy fairy concept (whatever the scientific matter may be) that one may wish to come up with.

    Sorry sounds like you thought we were debating scientifically to me

    Nope - I was making a statement. Not that 'you and I' were talking science. I know you're not.
    pandora wrote:
    Yes I speak of God because I believe .

    I rest my case (as they say...)

    pandora wrote:

    I speak of love far more redrock but you know this...you just choose to not hear it..

    Again, patronising.

    pandora wrote:

    actually I read little or none from anyone, including you, sharing their experiences with abortion..

    Well... maybe most people may think that a band's fan board is not really the place to 'share' those kind of things with perfect strangers. Would it have been better if all the ladies here had their good/sob story? What would it add to the debate if I said I never got pregnant unintentionally and never had an abortion (good me or I don't know what I'm talking about?), or I had one when I was 15 because I was foolish and had unprotected sex but I really regret it (awwww... poor thing), or I had one when I already had two kids because I didn't want another kid - even if I could afford it (cold bitch) or even I use abortions as contraception (I should be locked up). Would my age, education, marital situation, etc. be of importance? Would all of this make a difference in how people perceive my posts?

    Whilst you put everything down to a matter of the heart, legally, it's not. Where you have the abortion, when you have it, etc. will make a difference whether you can go to jail over it or not. Your personal issues/debate/morals with having the abortion is your own and I never said it wasn't.


    Now I'm REALLY done. I will not be tempted to respond to anything you may post - there's nothing to add.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    redrock wrote:
    Oop... I did say I was done, but hey.. I can't let this go by.
    pandora wrote:
    you said this
    But, for a debate on a scientific matter, it's facts that need to be looked at, not any airy fairy concept (whatever the scientific matter may be) that one may wish to come up with.

    Sorry sounds like you thought we were debating scientifically to me

    Nope - I was stating a fact. Not that 'you and I' were talking science. I know you're not.

    pandora wrote:

    I speak of love far more redrock but you know this...you just choose to not hear it..

    Again, patronising.

    pandora wrote:

    actually I read little or none from anyone, including you, sharing their experiences with abortion..

    Well... maybe most people may think that a band's fan board is not really the place to 'share' those kind of things with perfect strangers. Would it have been better if all the ladies here had their good/sob story? What would it add to the debate if I said I never got pregnant unintentionally and never had an abortion because I (good me or I don't know what I'm talking about?), or I had one when I was 15 because I was foolish and had unprotected sex but I really regret it (awwww... poor thing), or I had one when I already had two kids because I didn't want another kid - even if I could afford it (cold bitch) or even I use abortions as contraception (I should be locked up). Would my age, education, marital situation, etc. be of importance? Would all of this make a difference in how people perceive my posts?


    Now I'm REALLY done. I will not be tempted to respond to anything you may post - there's nothing to add.

    I think I detect some patronizing redrock :lol: oops on your part

    My point in sharing my story as compared to the people debating whether it is murder or not was to show the painful side of abortion. This amongst some really dumb analogies I might add. Cold logical posts that were in desperate need of seeing the heart and emotion behind the subject.

    It was bringing a little heart to the subject and some rather fine points that others agreed with redrock..
    if you take the time to read...

    I also felt the need to say that abortion is based in beliefs this is my opinion.

    Me being a perfect stranger to someone out there may help them...
    I don't just think about you guys :lol:
    or perhaps someone will just relate to my story,
    it was important thing for me to share to get my point across, never easy but it may help someone.

    It surprises me your negativity..I thought you a more positive person on sharing and helping others.
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,050
    Everyone is right.

    No one is sorry.

    That's the start

    and the end of the story...





    should be the title of this thread....

    :|:|:|:|:|:|:|:|
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    Everyone is right.

    No one is sorry.

    That's the start

    and the end of the story...





    should be the title of this thread....

    :|:|:|:|:|:|:|:|
    not really for me :(

    I was wrong to have an abortion

    I am sorry I did

    The start and end of the story was a long road
    but one I learned much from


    but I get why you posted that :D
    redrock and I are both pro choice she didn't agree with my spiritual stance I guess
    and I felt less logic more heart was needed in this thread
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    he still stands wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    As I said it's not a debatable subject...one's beliefs. One's beliefs is the driving force behind abortion.
    It is our personal morals, for some, religious beliefs, but not just logic.

    I definitely agree with this. And it is an emotional subject as you say... and it does come down to beliefs, morality, etc. My points previously were meant to correct statements that were false from a scientific standpoint that were made as "evidence" that abortion is murder or whatever.

    For those reasons, we cannot have government get involved. It should be up to the individual.

    If people want to tell us why abortions are bad (I agree that they are) that is fine... but making them "illegal" is a very very bad idea.
    Yes and I agree with you. I am pro choice...women must have the right to choose.
    It should be a basic right and also available to insure a women is safe if she chooses to have an abortion.

    In my opinion the reason abortion is not murder is because it is legal. Murder is an unlawful act.
    But in the eyes of God it may be. This why women come to their own terms, make a decision,
    form an opinion based on their moral beliefs and why I felt it really can't be debated logically.

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