The Sinking of The U.S.S Liberty

DriftingByTheStorm · September 2010

Loss of Liberty - The Sinking of the USS Liberty

I have not seen the documentary you posted, Byrnzie, which is a BBC documentary (meaning I tend to ASSUME that it is more of a whitewash than a full account, anyhow)

but the one in the above link is VERY DAMNING of the Official Story, and has PLENTY OF 4 STAR GENERALS AND THOSE ACTUALLY ABOARD THE USS LIBERTY who give their side of the story and have very disturbing things to say, and all of whom are pissed off and ask for a full investigation of the account (which of course, they will never get)

Staged, faked, deliberate, and false-flagged maritime incidents are nothing new in US history.

The Lusitania, The USS Maine, The Titanic, the entirety of Pearl Harbor, The Gulf of Tonkin, AND the USS Liberty were ALL arguably staged\deliberate events.

The Gulf of Tonkin being THE incident that started ALL OF THE VIETNAM WAR, and being PROVABLY FALSIFIED by the US government at this point in history.

The Lusitania would be right behind The Gulf of Tonkin in terms of provability, although it is not 100% like the Gulf of Tonkin is. Titanic is "questionable", Pearl Harbor has some VERY condemning facts behind it to indicate US complicity in allowing Japan to "sneak attack" us (evidence shows that Roosevelt did indeed know, and his own writings show that he was TRYING TO FIND AN INCIDENT to allow US entrance in to the war) ... anyway. For quick reference, i did little more than skim this webpage but it looks to be right on: Pearl Harbor Deception

Just saying.
We don't have a very good track record in the waters.

TriumphantAngel · September 2010

Byrnzie wrote:

unsung wrote:

I'm not nearly enlightened enough on Israel to make too many comments but I am now curious. All of you that are against Israel and their actions, if the US was to end involvement in that region (they won't) and Israel had to fend for itself, how long would they last?

Depends what you mean by 'involvement'. If by involvement you mean the U.S would stop blocking a peaceful settlement as already agreed upon by the rest of the world then Israel would simply be forced - by international pressue originating from the U.N, and possibly by way of sanctions if it chose to resist - to withdraw from the occupied territories.
Maybe even a U.N peacekeeping could be deployed along the border to keep things from kicking off - like we've seen in Cyprus for the past 45 years.
As for Israel being attacked, I doubt that would happen. Who would attack it? Israel has nuclear weapons. And another thing that could happend if the U.S ended it's involvement is that Israel could be pressured into finally revealing it's nuclear capacity and sign the non-proliferation treaty.
We'd also more than likely see a reduction in terrorism in the world.

^^^^^^^^^

what Byrnzie said.

just want to also add to Unsung that the bottom line is that Israels actions are appalling, if they started to act like a democracy and a civilized country, adhered to International Law and stop with the constant Human rights violations and cruel and inhuman treatment to an entire population of peoples because of the actions of a few, you wouldn't see criticism of Israel.

it's not rocket science. contrary to what some around here would have you believe, criticism of Israel is as a result of their actions. not mine. not yours. theirs. you can't criticize someone/something unless they are providing you with actions that allow criticism to start with. right? fix that and you won't have the criticism.

Byrnzie · September 2010

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

Loss of Liberty - The Sinking of the USS Liberty

I have not seen the documentary you posted, Byrnzie, which is a BBC documentary (meaning I tend to ASSUME that it is more of a whitewash than a full account, anyhow)

but the one in the above link is VERY DAMNING of the Official Story, and has PLENTY OF 4 STAR GENERALS AND THOSE ACTUALLY ABOARD THE USS LIBERTY who give their side of the story and have very disturbing things to say, and all of whom are pissed off and ask for a full investigation of the account (which of course, they will never get):(

Thanks dude, I'm watching it now.

Pepe Silvia · September 2010

Pepe Silvia wrote:

yosi wrote:

It's interesting. The official investigations found that the attack was a mistake. There are those that disagree. No one here can really say what truly happened. But everyone is uncritically jumping on the "Israel is the bad guy" bandwagon. I think that says a lot.

and what of the lavon affair (ie operation susannah), yosi??

according to haaretz:
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/ne ... ter-1.4385

The Lavon affair - also known locally as esek habish, "the rotten business" - was a plan to discredit Egypt's government, then headed by Gamal Abdel Nasser, by bombing theaters, post offices and U.S. and British institutions, and making it seem as though Egypt was behind the bombings. The thinking in Israel at the time was that if the British were to give up control of the Suez Canal, it would be left in Egypt's hands, putting Cairo in a better position to exert pressure on Israel.

The agents were told "to undermine the West's trust in the [Egyptian] government by causing public insecurity" while concealing Israel's role in the sabotage.

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/06/30/the- ... -1954.html

On July 2, 1954, a firebomb rattled a post office in Alexandria, Egypt. The following week, bombs tore through a British theater and the U.S. Information Agency libraries in Cairo and Alexandria. As it turned out, they were surreptitiously carried out by Israel, which named the plot Operation Susannah. The idea was to blame the attacks on local insurgents, which would make Egypt look too unstable for British troops to withdraw from the Suez Canal inside two years, as planned. But Egyptian authorities traced the bombings back to nine Egyptian Jews who had been recruited by Israeli military intelligence to target sites frequented by Westerners.

eh????

i don't mean to just ask yosi, others can feel free to chime in.....ogre? rafie? electronic delta? where ya guys at???

arthurdent · September 2010

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

Pearl Harbor Deception

Yeah, Pearl Harbor was an inside job :roll:

you loonies crack me up

let me guess... you think the moon landing was faked, too :arrow:

Pepe Silvia · September 2010

arthurdent wrote:

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

Pearl Harbor Deception

Yeah, Pearl Harbor was an inside job :roll:

you loonies crack me up

let me guess... you think the moon landing was faked, too :arrow:

except he wasn't saying or implying it was an inside job :roll:

so, got an opinion on the lavon affair?

DriftingByTheStorm · September 2010

arthurdent wrote:

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

Pearl Harbor Deception

Yeah, Pearl Harbor was an inside job :roll:

you loonies crack me up

let me guess... you think the moon landing was faked, too :arrow:

Let's just say this.
The widely held notion that the United States was the innocent victim of Japanese agression at Pearl Harbor is straight bunk. Go read the NEGATIVE reviews of the book, Day of Deceit, on Amazon, and you will see that even those who strongly disagree with the contention that Pearl Harbor was allowed to happen with foreknowledge by FDR AGREE with the former assertion.

That is to say, even those who vehemently disagree with the notion that the President knew of plans to attack Pearl Harbor and allowed to happen are, at the same time, WELL AWARE that the Roosevelt administration was doing every thing in their power to taunt, inflame, antagonize, and encourage an enemy attack on the United States by either the Germans or the Japanese.

You can back your way out of that and just say, "dude, that's the way the world works."
But i argue this is NOT commonly held knowledge, and it DOES matter.
Those at the top of the American government's administration were DELIBERATELY encouraging aggression by UNDECLARED enemies (and were SUCCESSFUL in doing so) in order to make good on their desired outcome of DECLARED WAR.

If you want to subscribe to the theory of Situational Ethics or the notion that the ends justify the means, then go right ahead and agree with this.

Call me a simple man, and a man of an age passed, but I happen to strongly DISagree with such actions, and it is my PRIMARY disagreement with the larger body of "Illuminst" thought. THE primary driver of ALL illuminist thinking seems to be the direct assumption that moral absolutes can and MUST be set aside in order to achieve the greater good. I find this notion appalling and deserving of contempt. But maybe that is just me.

yosi · September 2010

"Illuminist"?! Really?! :?

Pepe Silvia · September 2010

yosi wrote:

"Illuminist"?! Really?! :?

no, lavon

arthurdent · September 2010

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

Go read the NEGATIVE reviews of the book, Day of Deceit, on Amazon, and you will see that even those who strongly disagree with the contention that Pearl Harbor was allowed to happen with foreknowledge by FDR AGREE with the former assertion.

I particularly liked this review:

79 of 98 people found the following review helpful:
1.0 out of 5 stars A Classic Example of Flawed and Deceptive "Research"?, January 3, 2004
By Richard E. Young (Denver, Colorado) - See all my reviews
This review is from: Day Of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor (Paperback)
Day of Deceit - The Truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor.
By Robert B. Stinnett. (New York: The Free Press, 1999. Pp. xiv, 386.

In 1999, Robert B. Stinnett, since 1986 a retired long-time employee of the Oakland Tribune, authored his book, Day of Deceit, based upon years of extensive personal research.
Attempting to personally blame Roosevelt for the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor is not new. Others have made similar assertions over the years. But Stinnett claims that through personally reviewing hundreds of thousands of documents, many obtained through use of the Freedom of Information Act, he found indisputable "proof" that Roosevelt actually knew of, and deliberately provoked, the Japanese attack.

A number of reviewers of Stinnett's book, perhaps impressed by 65 pages of some 595 footnotes (many quite lengthy) and accepting them carte blanche as valid, praised the book. But, as one would say, the devil is in the details.

Stinnett's conclusions rest on four major allegations. First, that Navy Lieutenant Commander McCollum drafted a memorandum dated October 7, 1940 for his boss, Navy Captain Anderson, entitled "Estimate of the Situation in the Pacific and Recommendations for Action by the United States." In it McCollum set forth eight steps which could be interpreted as provocative to Japan. Stinnett asserts that the President read or knew of this memorandum, and immediately adopted and carried out those eight steps "...to provoke Japan through a series of actions into an overt act: the Pearl Harbor attack."

Stinnett's own research proves otherwise. There were no forwarding endorsements on McCollum's October 7, 1940 memorandum. Stinnett found only a response to McCollum from a Captain Dudley Knox, commenting on its contents. Even though Stinnett admits that "no specific record has been found by the author indicating whether he (Captain Anderson, the addressee) or Roosevelt actually ever saw it," Stinnett goes on to claim that "a series of secret presidential routing logs plus collateral intelligence information in Navy files offer conclusive evidence that they (Roosevelt and Captain Anderson) did see it."

However, if one tries to find the "secret presidential routing logs" cited by Stinnett in his lengthy footnote 8, no secret presidential routing logs are even mentioned, let alone cited. When asked about this, Stinnett replied that the logs he had referenced in footnote 8 (apparently by mistake) "are fully described" in footnote 37 on page 314. But this footnote deals with radio intercepts, not McCollum's memorandum.

It is clear after delving into Stinnett's footnotes that there is no "conclusive evidence," in fact no evidence whatsoever, that Roosevelt saw or even knew of McCollum's memorandum. Stinnett has proved just the opposite of his own oft repeated allegation that Roosevelt adopted McCollum's eight point program. Through Stinnett's own exhaustive research, we now know that there is not one scintilla of documentary evidence that President Roosevelt saw, knew of, or adopted McCollum's proposals.

Stinnett's second major allegation is that Roosevelt prevented Admiral Kimmel from conducting a training exercise that would have uncovered the oncoming Japanese Fleet. Stinnett provides no relevant documents to support his allegation. Stinnett does quote Admiral Turner (at the time of Pearl Harbor, Director of Navy Plans in Washington, D.C.), testifying before Congress after the war, as proof that the Navy had been ordered out of the area where Nagumo's task force was headed:

"We were prepared to divert traffic when we believed that war was imminent. We sent
the traffic down via Torres Strait, so that the track of the Japanese task force would be
clear of any traffic."

What is bothersome is that Turner never made this statement. What Stinnett has done is cobble together phrases of Admiral Turner's testimony from different sentences to arrive at the above quoted statement. The reading of Turner's actual testimony leaves a different meaning

But the mort serious flaw facing Stinnett is that Admiral Kimmel himself, for years fighting to restore his dignity and reversing the belief of many that he was negligent in permitting his Pacific fleet at Pearl Harbor to be so surprised, never once stated, suggested or hinted in the hundreds of pages of his testimony before various investigative bodies, in his own book, or in any of his speeches, that he was prevented from finding the Japanese task force. In fact, he did not believe that the Japanese were about to attack Pearl.

Kimmel's own testimony totally disproves Stinnett's second allegation:

"In short, all indications of the movements of Japanese military and naval forces which came to
my attention confirmed the information in the dispatch of 27 November - that the Japanese were
on the move against Thailand or the Kra Peninsula in southeast Asia."

"In brief, in the week immediately prior to Pearl Harbor, I had no evidence that the
Japanese carriers were enroute to Oahu."

Conducting and then concluding a standard annual war game north of Hawaii by some ships of the Pacific Fleet some two weeks before December 7th, is hardly evidence, as Stinnett claims, of Kimmel being prevented from discovering the Japanese attack force.

The remaining two major allegations, one being that the Japanese task force actually sent radio messages while on the way to Pearl, the other that many Japanese secret messages about the planned attack on Pearl Harbor were not only intercepted but were deciphered and translated before the attack, have already been discredited by experts in cryptology and radio communications, as well as by noted historians of Pearl Harbor, such as Gordon W. Prange and John Prados.

An analysis of much of the research done by Stinnett and his quotes raise serious questions about the accuracy and relevance of many of his claims. Any serious student of Pearl Harbor needs to look carefully at Stinnett's research before concluding that he has really uncovered any thing new.

Richard E. Young, RADM, USNR (Ret)

arthurdent · September 2010

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

i did little more than skim this webpage but it looks to be right on: Pearl Harbor Deception

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/myths/index.html

Pepe Silvia · September 2010

Pepe Silvia wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

yosi wrote:

It's interesting. The official investigations found that the attack was a mistake. There are those that disagree. No one here can really say what truly happened. But everyone is uncritically jumping on the "Israel is the bad guy" bandwagon. I think that says a lot.

and what of the lavon affair (ie operation susannah), yosi??

according to haaretz:
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/ne ... ter-1.4385

The Lavon affair - also known locally as esek habish, "the rotten business" - was a plan to discredit Egypt's government, then headed by Gamal Abdel Nasser, by bombing theaters, post offices and U.S. and British institutions, and making it seem as though Egypt was behind the bombings. The thinking in Israel at the time was that if the British were to give up control of the Suez Canal, it would be left in Egypt's hands, putting Cairo in a better position to exert pressure on Israel.

The agents were told "to undermine the West's trust in the [Egyptian] government by causing public insecurity" while concealing Israel's role in the sabotage.

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/06/30/the- ... -1954.html

On July 2, 1954, a firebomb rattled a post office in Alexandria, Egypt. The following week, bombs tore through a British theater and the U.S. Information Agency libraries in Cairo and Alexandria. As it turned out, they were surreptitiously carried out by Israel, which named the plot Operation Susannah. The idea was to blame the attacks on local insurgents, which would make Egypt look too unstable for British troops to withdraw from the Suez Canal inside two years, as planned. But Egyptian authorities traced the bombings back to nine Egyptian Jews who had been recruited by Israeli military intelligence to target sites frequented by Westerners.

eh????

i don't mean to just ask yosi, others can feel free to chime in.....ogre? rafie? electronic delta? where ya guys at???

hmmmmm....kinda telling that none of the israel supporters will comment on this, i guess it's easier to make jokes about lunar landings, illuminati and other things instead of saying anything about this, eh? not even a condemnation or anything?

but then what did i expect? many israeli's think of the people who committed the lavon affair as heros

Pepe Silvia · October 2010

Pepe Silvia wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

and what of the lavon affair (ie operation susannah), yosi??

according to haaretz:
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/ne ... ter-1.4385

The Lavon affair - also known locally as esek habish, "the rotten business" - was a plan to discredit Egypt's government, then headed by Gamal Abdel Nasser, by bombing theaters, post offices and U.S. and British institutions, and making it seem as though Egypt was behind the bombings. The thinking in Israel at the time was that if the British were to give up control of the Suez Canal, it would be left in Egypt's hands, putting Cairo in a better position to exert pressure on Israel.

The agents were told "to undermine the West's trust in the [Egyptian] government by causing public insecurity" while concealing Israel's role in the sabotage.

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/06/30/the- ... -1954.html

On July 2, 1954, a firebomb rattled a post office in Alexandria, Egypt. The following week, bombs tore through a British theater and the U.S. Information Agency libraries in Cairo and Alexandria. As it turned out, they were surreptitiously carried out by Israel, which named the plot Operation Susannah. The idea was to blame the attacks on local insurgents, which would make Egypt look too unstable for British troops to withdraw from the Suez Canal inside two years, as planned. But Egyptian authorities traced the bombings back to nine Egyptian Jews who had been recruited by Israeli military intelligence to target sites frequented by Westerners.

eh????

i don't mean to just ask yosi, others can feel free to chime in.....ogre? rafie? electronic delta? where ya guys at???

hmmmmm....kinda telling that none of the israel supporters will comment on this, i guess it's easier to make jokes about lunar landings, illuminati and other things instead of saying anything about this, eh? not even a condemnation or anything?

but then what did i expect? many israeli's think of the people who committed the lavon affair as heros

here is an example of how many jews glorify the acts of these terrorists. check out the opening and ending paragraph to the jewish virtual library's entry on the lavon affair. the site claims to be the most comprehensive online jewish encyclopedia in the world

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... lavon.html

1st paragraph:
This week we will be discussing a spy story in Israel's early years that left a nasty mark on the young state, with reverberations for the following 20 years. It was called the "Lavon Affair," after Defense Minister Pinhas Lavon, "Esek HaBish" or "The Mishap". It revolved around nearly a dozen highly dedicated young Egyptian Jews who were asked, and agreed to spy for Israel against the country in which they were born. Why they were caught and more or less abandoned by Israel to incarceration and for a while, torture in Egypt's prisons to be finally released only 14 years later is a question that has never been answered. This story, known as "Operation Susannah," is thus one of idealism and self-sacrifice, as well as abandonment and an unwillingness to take responsibility.

last paragraph:
In March 2005, nearly 40 years after their release from Egyptian prisons, Marcelle Ninio, Robert Dassa, and Meir Zafran were given military ranks in the IDF in recognition of their service to the State of Israel. They are the last three surviving members of Operation Susannah, and are finally receving awards for their years of suffering. It took several years for Israel to acknowledge that it had trained a group of Egyptian Jews to carry out espionage activities in Cairo and Alexandria. The group was released in February 1968, but was unknown to the Israeli public until 1971 when Golda Meir announced she would attend Ninio's wedding. Dassa believes that his rank is the culmination of the wishes of his deceased comrades, who wanted the survivors not to rest “until the State of Israel recognizes all of us.”

i LOVE how this site constantly refers to them as a 'spy ring' idealism? sel-sacrifice?? spy ring??? are you fucking kidding me!? they were nothing but terrorists. from now on anytime they say hamas or palestinians are terrorists say no, they are a spy ring!

the entry doesn't even mention that this 'spy ring' blew up some buildings until the 21st paragraph!

Byrnzie · October 2010

Pepe Silvia wrote:

here is an example of how many jews glorify the acts of these terrorists. check out the opening and ending paragraph to the jewish virtual library's entry on the lavon affair. the site claims to be the most comprehensive online jewish encyclopedia in the world

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... lavon.html

1st paragraph:
This week we will be discussing a spy story in Israel's early years that left a nasty mark on the young state, with reverberations for the following 20 years. It was called the "Lavon Affair," after Defense Minister Pinhas Lavon, "Esek HaBish" or "The Mishap". It revolved around nearly a dozen highly dedicated young Egyptian Jews who were asked, and agreed to spy for Israel against the country in which they were born. Why they were caught and more or less abandoned by Israel to incarceration and for a while, torture in Egypt's prisons to be finally released only 14 years later is a question that has never been answered. This story, known as "Operation Susannah," is thus one of idealism and self-sacrifice, as well as abandonment and an unwillingness to take responsibility.

last paragraph:
In March 2005, nearly 40 years after their release from Egyptian prisons, Marcelle Ninio, Robert Dassa, and Meir Zafran were given military ranks in the IDF in recognition of their service to the State of Israel. They are the last three surviving members of Operation Susannah, and are finally receving awards for their years of suffering. It took several years for Israel to acknowledge that it had trained a group of Egyptian Jews to carry out espionage activities in Cairo and Alexandria. The group was released in February 1968, but was unknown to the Israeli public until 1971 when Golda Meir announced she would attend Ninio's wedding. Dassa believes that his rank is the culmination of the wishes of his deceased comrades, who wanted the survivors not to rest “until the State of Israel recognizes all of us.”

i LOVE how this site constantly refers to them as a 'spy ring' idealism? sel-sacrifice?? spy ring??? are you fucking kidding me!? they were nothing but terrorists. from now on anytime they say hamas or palestinians are terrorists say no, they are a spy ring!

the entry doesn't even mention that this 'spy ring' blew up some buildings until the 21st paragraph!

George W. Bush: "Either you're with us, or you're with the spy ring!"

The Sinking of The U.S.S Liberty

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