Howard Zinn on the Jewish Holocaust

2

Comments

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    _outlaw wrote:
    what I don't understand is: even if one were to accept your argument, what is your point with this? Are you trying to discredit Zinn's analysis with this irrelevant argument? are any of his points less valid?

    Good point.

    I've actually forgotten what the point of this discussion is.

    Time for bed. :wave:
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    yosi wrote:
    ...I would not expect a new convert to have the same emotional reaction to the event, because their own family would almost certainly not have been affected, and they wouldn't have absorbed the memory of the event in the same way......Still, I would concede that someone who converts to Judaism and lives in a Jewish community could over time come to share the same intensity of emotion in connection with the event. .
    OK... my family has been directly affected by the holocaust but there are no jews in my family. Jews/Roma/etc. were all persecuted by the Nazis. In the camps, they were the same (a number). 'Emotional reaction' to the event and the 'absorbed' memory is similar. What more could a jew 'understand' that another having gone through the same events couldn't? Do the jews really have to keep on defining themselves through the holocaust like it's something special to them? Why would a newly converted jew and anymore of an emotional reaction to the holocaust than anyone else?
    yosi wrote:
    Let me put it to you this way. I have never been raped. I don't expect that I am able to understand the emotional reality of having been raped the same way that an actual rape victim does, and it would be utterly crass for me to claim otherwise.
    No, but two people having been raped by the same person will have the same understanding of the emotional reality of it. The way they wish to deal with it and continue with their life will probably be different.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,180
    Outlaw, to be honest, I'm not sure how the conversation got to this point. I think my original statement was more an attempt at actually avoiding a conversation on the subject. In any event, it wasn't intended to discredit Zinn at all, although I don't particularly like that he uses the holocaust as a rhetorical tool (though I suppose everyone plays on tragedies of every stripe to further their own arguments. It's just the way of the world).

    B, I disagree. There is such a thing as communal memory, and I would argue that the Jewish communal memory of the holocaust imparts an emotional response that isn't accessible to outsiders (or is accessed only with difficulty). I also don't view the holocaust the same way that you apparently do. Yes, the Jews were not the Nazis only victims, but we were their primary ones. The death camps were built for the purpose of killing Jews. That they were also used to kill others is a tragedy, but I think it is a matter of historical fact that the Jewish experience during the war was a horrifically unique one. As a non-Jew I understand your impulse to universalize the event so as to take some meaning from it. I don't have a problem with that per se. But please, let's not pretend that there was not a particular Jewish experience during the war. There was, and if those that survived and those of us who came after take away a different, particular meaning from the event, I think that is our right.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,180
    Red, the holocaust is about more than the camps. In that very narrow sense, yes, I'm sure that survivors have a shared experience that someone who wasn't there can't even imagine. But I'm talking about a lot more than just the camps.

    An example - the other day I was sitting on the subway, and across from me was a blue-blooded, blond haired, as American as apple-pie girl. I was watching her (I like to people watch) and I just had this flash, like, "this person belongs in this place, feels comfortable here, totally secure here, in a way that I never will." This was in NYC, I was born and raised there. And the reason for that is that for as long as I can remember the underlying message of family stories, of discussions around the dinner table, have been that my people are outcasts, strangers, usually hated, and ultimately almost exterminated. I don't think some Christian girl from Kansas (for example) could ever have any idea what that is like, nor do I think that the truth of that message is in any way diminished by the fact that at this particular moment in history, in this particular place, Jews are doing well.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    yosi wrote:
    Yes, the Jews were not the Nazis only victims, but we were their primary ones. The death camps were built for the purpose of killing Jews. That they were also used to kill others is a tragedy, but I think it is a matter of historical fact that the Jewish experience during the war was a horrifically unique one. ....

    Only because there were more of them. The Roma were actually the first to be 'rounded up' by the Nazis...
    yosi wrote:
    Red, the holocaust is about more than the camps. In that very narrow sense, yes, I'm sure that survivors have a shared experience that someone who wasn't there can't even imagine. But I'm talking about a lot more than just the camps.
    Don't patronize me. I know what the holocaust is.
    yosi wrote:
    ...in a way that I never will... And the reason for that is that for as long as I can remember the underlying message of family stories, of discussions around the dinner table, have been that my people are outcasts, strangers, usually hated, and ultimately almost exterminated
    Your problem. Victim mentality. Like your example of rape... it's how one deals with things.
  • JOEJOEJOE
    JOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,842
    redrock wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    Yes, the Jews were not the Nazis only victims, but we were their primary ones. The death camps were built for the purpose of killing Jews. That they were also used to kill others is a tragedy, but I think it is a matter of historical fact that the Jewish experience during the war was a horrifically unique one. ....

    Only because there were more of them. The Roma were actually the first to be 'rounded up' by the Nazis...
    yosi wrote:
    Red, the holocaust is about more than the camps. In that very narrow sense, yes, I'm sure that survivors have a shared experience that someone who wasn't there can't even imagine. But I'm talking about a lot more than just the camps.
    Don't patronize me. I know what the holocaust is.
    yosi wrote:
    ...in a way that I never will... And the reason for that is that for as long as I can remember the underlying message of family stories, of discussions around the dinner table, have been that my people are outcasts, strangers, usually hated, and ultimately almost exterminated
    Your problem. Victim mentality. Like your example of rape... it's how one deals with things.

    How can you call it "victim mentality" when you haven't experienced what the victims have?

    Textbook psychology doesn't always help fix things.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,180
    I'm not patronizing you. Look, this is dumb. Either you get what I'm talking about or you don't, and if you don't it really doesn't matter.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    edited September 2010
    JOEJOEJOE wrote:

    How can you call it "victim mentality" when you haven't experienced what the victims have?

    Textbook psychology doesn't always help fix things.

    Is Yosi a victim? No. Was my mother a victim? Yes. Was my grand-father a victim? Yes. What about my Godfather? Yes, him also. Does that affect my 'position in society'? No. One can't use the crutch of a past event to justify all kinds of things. Learn from it and move on.

    "If the Holocaust is to have any meaning, we must transfer our anger to today's brutalities. We must respect the Jewish Holocaust by refusing to allow atrocities to take place now." LEARN FROM THE PAST.
    Post edited by redrock on
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,180
    Who's justifying anything. I'm just talking about how people relate to the past. When have I spoken about current events in relation to the holocaust?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    I recommend that everyone reread the first post of the thread and comment on that.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    edited September 2010
    yosi wrote:
    Who's justifying anything. I'm just talking about how people relate to the past. When have I spoken about current events in relation to the holocaust?

    I was responding to this...
    yosi wrote:
    ....and I just had this flash, like, "this person belongs in this place, feels comfortable here, totally secure here, in a way that I never will." This was in NYC, I was born and raised there. And the reason for that is that for as long as I can remember the underlying message of family stories, of discussions around the dinner table, have been that my people are outcasts, strangers, usually hated, and ultimately almost exterminated.
    .

    Outlaw - you're right - the thread has been derailed to much. Apologies.
    Post edited by redrock on
  • JOEJOEJOE
    JOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,842
    redrock wrote:
    JOEJOEJOE wrote:

    How can you call it "victim mentality" when you haven't experienced what the victims have?

    Textbook psychology doesn't always help fix things.

    Is Yosi a victim? No. Was my mother a victim? Yes. Was my grand-father a victim? Yes. What about my Godfather? Yes, him also. Does that affect my 'position in society'? No. One can't use the crutch of a past event to justify all kinds of things. Move on.

    I don't use it as a crutch, but I do use it to explain my actions at times.

    If Yosi's life had been effected, he is a secondary victim, just like a 20 year old African American is the secondary victim of the injustices suffered by his grandparents in the 60s.

    Not all victims use crutches....some use crutches, but others use their upbringing to help themselves jump over walls. It is up to the "victim" to proceed as they see fit.

    If my dad didn't experience what he did, I won't be here today. If my dad didn't experience what he did, not all of my generation's kids would have gone top college and been successful. I am actually the beneficiary of his experiences.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,180
    Ok, getting back to the original post, just read the first and last paragraphs. He starts out deploring that people use the memory of the holocaust to further their own political arguments, but then goes ahead and does just that.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • JOEJOEJOE
    JOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,842
    redrock wrote:
    JOEJOEJOE wrote:

    How can you call it "victim mentality" when you haven't experienced what the victims have?

    Textbook psychology doesn't always help fix things.

    Is Yosi a victim? No. Was my mother a victim? Yes. Was my grand-father a victim? Yes. What about my Godfather? Yes, him also. Does that affect my 'position in society'? No. One can't use the crutch of a past event to justify all kinds of things. Learn from it and move on.

    "If the Holocaust is to have any meaning, we must transfer our anger to today's brutalities. We must respect the Jewish Holocaust by refusing to allow atrocities to take place now." LEARN FROM THE PAST.

    Are you "moving on" to allow yourself to ignore your mother and grandfather's experiences? Seems as if you are "moving on" as a crutch to help yourself avoid your family history.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    JOEJOEJOE wrote:

    Are you "moving on" to allow yourself to ignore your mother and grandfather's experiences? Seems as if you are "moving on" as a crutch to help yourself avoid your family history.
    Of course not. I have a very rich and varied family history which I embrace. I don't dwell, ie I don't say 'I'll never feel comfortable in the city where I was born and raised because of past events.' (maybe because I was raised in many different cities and countries!) but you get my drift.

    Your family experiences cannot be a weight on your shoulders or how can we 'use' the past to better the future? How can we look at the holocaust, decry it but accept what is happening now? That's how I see it.
  • JOEJOEJOE
    JOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,842
    redrock wrote:
    JOEJOEJOE wrote:

    Are you "moving on" to allow yourself to ignore your mother and grandfather's experiences? Seems as if you are "moving on" as a crutch to help yourself avoid your family history.
    Of course not. I have a very rich and varied family history which I embrace. I don't dwell, ie I don't say 'I'll never feel comfortable in the city where I was born and raised because of past events.' (maybe because I was raised in many different cities and countries!) but you get my drift.

    Your family experiences cannot be a weight on your shoulders or how can we 'use' the past to better the future? How can we look at the holocaust, decry it but accept what is happening now? That's how I see it.


    Do/did your mother or grandfather dwell on it?
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    JOEJOEJOE wrote:
    redrock wrote:
    JOEJOEJOE wrote:

    Are you "moving on" to allow yourself to ignore your mother and grandfather's experiences? Seems as if you are "moving on" as a crutch to help yourself avoid your family history.
    Of course not. I have a very rich and varied family history which I embrace. I don't dwell, ie I don't say 'I'll never feel comfortable in the city where I was born and raised because of past events.' (maybe because I was raised in many different cities and countries!) but you get my drift.

    Your family experiences cannot be a weight on your shoulders or how can we 'use' the past to better the future? How can we look at the holocaust, decry it but accept what is happening now? That's how I see it.


    Do/did your mother or grandfather dwell on it?
    My grandfather died, I never knew him. My mother (and my godfather) did not let her experiences dominate her life. She took what she had and turned it around. She did not 'dwell'. It was part of her, there were discussions, etc. but she was not a 'victim'. She did not bring 'things' up to justify anything.

    We are really derailing the thread again. If you would like to pursue this line of discussion, maybe start a new thread?
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    yosi wrote:
    Red, the holocaust is about more than the camps. In that very narrow sense, yes, I'm sure that survivors have a shared experience that someone who wasn't there can't even imagine. But I'm talking about a lot more than just the camps.

    An example - the other day I was sitting on the subway, and across from me was a blue-blooded, blond haired, as American as apple-pie girl. I was watching her (I like to people watch) and I just had this flash, like, "this person belongs in this place, feels comfortable here, totally secure here, in a way that I never will." This was in NYC, I was born and raised there. And the reason for that is that for as long as I can remember the underlying message of family stories, of discussions around the dinner table, have been that my people are outcasts, strangers, usually hated, and ultimately almost exterminated. I don't think some Christian girl from Kansas (for example) could ever have any idea what that is like, nor do I think that the truth of that message is in any way diminished by the fact that at this particular moment in history, in this particular place, Jews are doing well.

    your heritage does you a great disservice if this is what it has taught you. and that is a shame.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • ONCE DEVIDED
    ONCE DEVIDED Posts: 1,131
    yosi wrote:

    An example - the other day I was sitting on the subway, and across from me was a blue-blooded, blond haired, as American as apple-pie girl. I was watching her (I like to people watch) and I just had this flash, like, "this person belongs in this place, feels comfortable here, totally secure here, in a way that I never will." This was in NYC, I was born and raised there. And the reason for that is that for as long as I can remember the underlying message of family stories, of discussions around the dinner table, have been that my people are outcasts, strangers, usually hated, and ultimately almost exterminated. I don't think some Christian girl from Kansas (for example) could ever have any idea what that is like, nor do I think that the truth of that message is in any way diminished by the fact that at this particular moment in history, in this particular place, Jews are doing well.

    yosi
    I find it very sad that you feel this way. But do you know what you are doing by sitting there watching that girl from Kansas.
    Your being racist. why is that girl anybetter or worse than you. what right does she have over you none.
    sure your not being racist in thinking she is less than you as is the norm in racial feelings . but you judged her in your mind based on race. by her skin by her hair.
    Isnt this the reason for the holocost in the first place. Judging others based on race. judging the jewish communityas inferior.

    Im for saying everyone is equal.
    we are all sons, we are all daughters
    we are all mothers and fathers.
    everyrace everyone.
    we love our families and freinds
    we are no different.
    just our history is different.
    AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,180
    It had nothing to do with her race. It's about history. It's about her not carrying around the same historical baggage. The look I described happens to be what I at least associate with your quintessential all American, here since the colonies type, but the same feeling on my part could be associated with anyone not Jewish.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

Categories