....and I just had this flash, like, "this person belongs in this place, feels comfortable here, totally secure here, in a way that I never will." This was in NYC, I was born and raised there. And the reason for that is that for as long as I can remember the underlying message of family stories, of discussions around the dinner table, have been that my people are outcasts, strangers, usually hated, and ultimately almost exterminated.
.
Outlaw - you're right - the thread has been derailed to much. Apologies.
How can you call it "victim mentality" when you haven't experienced what the victims have?
Textbook psychology doesn't always help fix things.
Is Yosi a victim? No. Was my mother a victim? Yes. Was my grand-father a victim? Yes. What about my Godfather? Yes, him also. Does that affect my 'position in society'? No. One can't use the crutch of a past event to justify all kinds of things. Move on.
I don't use it as a crutch, but I do use it to explain my actions at times.
If Yosi's life had been effected, he is a secondary victim, just like a 20 year old African American is the secondary victim of the injustices suffered by his grandparents in the 60s.
Not all victims use crutches....some use crutches, but others use their upbringing to help themselves jump over walls. It is up to the "victim" to proceed as they see fit.
If my dad didn't experience what he did, I won't be here today. If my dad didn't experience what he did, not all of my generation's kids would have gone top college and been successful. I am actually the beneficiary of his experiences.
Ok, getting back to the original post, just read the first and last paragraphs. He starts out deploring that people use the memory of the holocaust to further their own political arguments, but then goes ahead and does just that.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
How can you call it "victim mentality" when you haven't experienced what the victims have?
Textbook psychology doesn't always help fix things.
Is Yosi a victim? No. Was my mother a victim? Yes. Was my grand-father a victim? Yes. What about my Godfather? Yes, him also. Does that affect my 'position in society'? No. One can't use the crutch of a past event to justify all kinds of things. Learn from it and move on.
"If the Holocaust is to have any meaning, we must transfer our anger to today's brutalities. We must respect the Jewish Holocaust by refusing to allow atrocities to take place now." LEARN FROM THE PAST.
Are you "moving on" to allow yourself to ignore your mother and grandfather's experiences? Seems as if you are "moving on" as a crutch to help yourself avoid your family history.
Are you "moving on" to allow yourself to ignore your mother and grandfather's experiences? Seems as if you are "moving on" as a crutch to help yourself avoid your family history.
Of course not. I have a very rich and varied family history which I embrace. I don't dwell, ie I don't say 'I'll never feel comfortable in the city where I was born and raised because of past events.' (maybe because I was raised in many different cities and countries!) but you get my drift.
Your family experiences cannot be a weight on your shoulders or how can we 'use' the past to better the future? How can we look at the holocaust, decry it but accept what is happening now? That's how I see it.
Are you "moving on" to allow yourself to ignore your mother and grandfather's experiences? Seems as if you are "moving on" as a crutch to help yourself avoid your family history.
Of course not. I have a very rich and varied family history which I embrace. I don't dwell, ie I don't say 'I'll never feel comfortable in the city where I was born and raised because of past events.' (maybe because I was raised in many different cities and countries!) but you get my drift.
Your family experiences cannot be a weight on your shoulders or how can we 'use' the past to better the future? How can we look at the holocaust, decry it but accept what is happening now? That's how I see it.
Are you "moving on" to allow yourself to ignore your mother and grandfather's experiences? Seems as if you are "moving on" as a crutch to help yourself avoid your family history.
Of course not. I have a very rich and varied family history which I embrace. I don't dwell, ie I don't say 'I'll never feel comfortable in the city where I was born and raised because of past events.' (maybe because I was raised in many different cities and countries!) but you get my drift.
Your family experiences cannot be a weight on your shoulders or how can we 'use' the past to better the future? How can we look at the holocaust, decry it but accept what is happening now? That's how I see it.
Do/did your mother or grandfather dwell on it?
My grandfather died, I never knew him. My mother (and my godfather) did not let her experiences dominate her life. She took what she had and turned it around. She did not 'dwell'. It was part of her, there were discussions, etc. but she was not a 'victim'. She did not bring 'things' up to justify anything.
We are really derailing the thread again. If you would like to pursue this line of discussion, maybe start a new thread?
Red, the holocaust is about more than the camps. In that very narrow sense, yes, I'm sure that survivors have a shared experience that someone who wasn't there can't even imagine. But I'm talking about a lot more than just the camps.
An example - the other day I was sitting on the subway, and across from me was a blue-blooded, blond haired, as American as apple-pie girl. I was watching her (I like to people watch) and I just had this flash, like, "this person belongs in this place, feels comfortable here, totally secure here, in a way that I never will." This was in NYC, I was born and raised there. And the reason for that is that for as long as I can remember the underlying message of family stories, of discussions around the dinner table, have been that my people are outcasts, strangers, usually hated, and ultimately almost exterminated. I don't think some Christian girl from Kansas (for example) could ever have any idea what that is like, nor do I think that the truth of that message is in any way diminished by the fact that at this particular moment in history, in this particular place, Jews are doing well.
your heritage does you a great disservice if this is what it has taught you. and that is a shame.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
An example - the other day I was sitting on the subway, and across from me was a blue-blooded, blond haired, as American as apple-pie girl. I was watching her (I like to people watch) and I just had this flash, like, "this person belongs in this place, feels comfortable here, totally secure here, in a way that I never will." This was in NYC, I was born and raised there. And the reason for that is that for as long as I can remember the underlying message of family stories, of discussions around the dinner table, have been that my people are outcasts, strangers, usually hated, and ultimately almost exterminated. I don't think some Christian girl from Kansas (for example) could ever have any idea what that is like, nor do I think that the truth of that message is in any way diminished by the fact that at this particular moment in history, in this particular place, Jews are doing well.
yosi
I find it very sad that you feel this way. But do you know what you are doing by sitting there watching that girl from Kansas.
Your being racist. why is that girl anybetter or worse than you. what right does she have over you none.
sure your not being racist in thinking she is less than you as is the norm in racial feelings . but you judged her in your mind based on race. by her skin by her hair.
Isnt this the reason for the holocost in the first place. Judging others based on race. judging the jewish communityas inferior.
Im for saying everyone is equal.
we are all sons, we are all daughters
we are all mothers and fathers.
everyrace everyone.
we love our families and freinds
we are no different.
just our history is different.
It had nothing to do with her race. It's about history. It's about her not carrying around the same historical baggage. The look I described happens to be what I at least associate with your quintessential all American, here since the colonies type, but the same feeling on my part could be associated with anyone not Jewish.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
I don't think knowledge of history is a disservice at all. We all too often are blinded by the immediacy of the present, we just get so wrapped up in it. I think a reminder that things can and have changed pretty quickly throughout history is a useful weapon against too much complacence.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
I don't think knowledge of history is a disservice at all.
Knowledge of history (or your heritage as catefrances said) is not a disservice at all. It's what you do with it that can be. It seems you consider it as 'baggage' you are lugging around and that the message you wish to take from it is negative - that is the disservice.
Yosi
Do you know that girl her story at all? Mo you based all your thoughts on her apearence her race.
just as you feel that others think negatively towards you. you feel negativly against her. not in a hrmfull way but you place on her.
I beleive most in this time are angered at the opression of the palestinians than at any historical context of views that led to the holocaust. or any earlier attacks on those of jewish faith.
In the spirit of not allowing persecution of anybody, be they any religon or race. Would it not be wonderful for all who reside in that area of the world to lay down their anger and bitterness. To look back at the evils of the Holocaust and say NEVER AGAIN
and I do mean all sides.
I know its not gunna happen. but I live in hope.
I would like to also thank you yosi. I always try my best to listen to all sides. to get the bigger picture. your views help broaden my mind. my ideas. Thanks for sharing.
Know this your race your history only describes where you have come from. not where you going. it makes part of who you are but its not you
Ok, getting back to the original post, just read the first and last paragraphs. He starts out deploring that people use the memory of the holocaust to further their own political arguments, but then goes ahead and does just that.
negative. he is trying to get us to learn from it, in order we prevent future holocausts, or current ones. not to profit monetarily or to get votes, or to gain sympathy. that's how they were using it, he is trying to prevent current and future holocausts.
he spent his life learning from history, in order to prevent the mistakes of it.
Comments
I was responding to this...
Outlaw - you're right - the thread has been derailed to much. Apologies.
I don't use it as a crutch, but I do use it to explain my actions at times.
If Yosi's life had been effected, he is a secondary victim, just like a 20 year old African American is the secondary victim of the injustices suffered by his grandparents in the 60s.
Not all victims use crutches....some use crutches, but others use their upbringing to help themselves jump over walls. It is up to the "victim" to proceed as they see fit.
If my dad didn't experience what he did, I won't be here today. If my dad didn't experience what he did, not all of my generation's kids would have gone top college and been successful. I am actually the beneficiary of his experiences.
Are you "moving on" to allow yourself to ignore your mother and grandfather's experiences? Seems as if you are "moving on" as a crutch to help yourself avoid your family history.
Your family experiences cannot be a weight on your shoulders or how can we 'use' the past to better the future? How can we look at the holocaust, decry it but accept what is happening now? That's how I see it.
Do/did your mother or grandfather dwell on it?
We are really derailing the thread again. If you would like to pursue this line of discussion, maybe start a new thread?
your heritage does you a great disservice if this is what it has taught you. and that is a shame.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
yosi
I find it very sad that you feel this way. But do you know what you are doing by sitting there watching that girl from Kansas.
Your being racist. why is that girl anybetter or worse than you. what right does she have over you none.
sure your not being racist in thinking she is less than you as is the norm in racial feelings . but you judged her in your mind based on race. by her skin by her hair.
Isnt this the reason for the holocost in the first place. Judging others based on race. judging the jewish communityas inferior.
Im for saying everyone is equal.
we are all sons, we are all daughters
we are all mothers and fathers.
everyrace everyone.
we love our families and freinds
we are no different.
just our history is different.
Knowledge of history (or your heritage as catefrances said) is not a disservice at all. It's what you do with it that can be. It seems you consider it as 'baggage' you are lugging around and that the message you wish to take from it is negative - that is the disservice.
Do you know that girl her story at all? Mo you based all your thoughts on her apearence her race.
just as you feel that others think negatively towards you. you feel negativly against her. not in a hrmfull way but you place on her.
I beleive most in this time are angered at the opression of the palestinians than at any historical context of views that led to the holocaust. or any earlier attacks on those of jewish faith.
In the spirit of not allowing persecution of anybody, be they any religon or race. Would it not be wonderful for all who reside in that area of the world to lay down their anger and bitterness. To look back at the evils of the Holocaust and say NEVER AGAIN
and I do mean all sides.
I know its not gunna happen. but I live in hope.
I would like to also thank you yosi. I always try my best to listen to all sides. to get the bigger picture. your views help broaden my mind. my ideas. Thanks for sharing.
Know this your race your history only describes where you have come from. not where you going. it makes part of who you are but its not you
he spent his life learning from history, in order to prevent the mistakes of it.
isn't that a noble cause, preventing genocide?