What happened, Ed?

2

Comments

  • Pepe Silvia
    Pepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    Commy wrote:
    why would you hold Ed to a higher standard than the rest of us? he's a person. i'm a person. you're a person. that person over there is a person. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs_rXxi0zhM



    when dealing with empire small changes in policy affect millions of people, can literally mean life or death for them. and Obama hasn't pulled a Bush, hasn't decided to bomb some defenseless third world country, and he hasn't pulled a Clinton, bombing some pharmecuetical plant in africa......and so far we can almost guarantee he's been better than Mccain....that's a victory. a small victory, but a victory. who knows, maybe next election cycle we will get a real progressive.


    true but he DID decide to drop an awful lot of bombs on Pakistan and displaced millions before a very harsh winter....but i guess that doesn't count because they aren't 'defenseless'

    also, keep in mind we are on a pearl jam message board, not a commy message board so maybe that's why ed's stances come up more than yours?

    and i seriously doubt we will get a real progressive next time because we have them every election cycle but the majority gets too scared of the other team so they don't give them any support. we had real progressives run in several of the past election cycles but instead of showing them support you and many others said things like "fuck that!!!" and supported obama. so it's not 'gee, hopefully next time we will get a real progressive', it's 'gee, hopefully next time people will stop buying into the 2 party scam and support someone who deserves it, not just isn't a little less of a dick than the other guy' what will change from last time when you blamed my vote for 2 terms of Bush?
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • Commy
    Commy Posts: 4,984
    Pepe Silvia wrote:
    Commy wrote:
    why would you hold Ed to a higher standard than the rest of us? he's a person. i'm a person. you're a person. that person over there is a person. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs_rXxi0zhM



    when dealing with empire small changes in policy affect millions of people, can literally mean life or death for them. and Obama hasn't pulled a Bush, hasn't decided to bomb some defenseless third world country, and he hasn't pulled a Clinton, bombing some pharmecuetical plant in africa......and so far we can almost guarantee he's been better than Mccain....that's a victory. a small victory, but a victory. who knows, maybe next election cycle we will get a real progressive.


    true but he DID decide to drop an awful lot of bombs on Pakistan and displaced millions before a very harsh winter....but i guess that doesn't count because they aren't 'defenseless'

    also, keep in mind we are on a pearl jam message board, not a commy message board so maybe that's why ed's stances come up more than yours?

    and i seriously doubt we will get a real progressive next time because we have them every election cycle but the majority gets too scared of the other team so they don't give them any support. we had real progressives run in several of the past election cycles but instead of showing them support you and many others said things like "fuck that!!!" and supported obama. so it's not 'gee, hopefully next time we will get a real progressive', it's 'gee, hopefully next time people will stop buying into the 2 party scam and support someone who deserves it, not just isn't a little less of a dick than the other guy' what will change from last time when you blamed my vote for 2 terms of Bush?

    do you have no sense of humor? the first part was straight out of flight of the conchords.

    i accept the fact that if voting could change the system, as you want it to, really fundamentally change the system, it would be illegal. knowing that going in i absolutely believe the words of late Howard Zinn, when he said small changes in policy can mean life or death for millions.


    so yeah, while you're off trying vote in some green party candidate without chance, i'm understanding the rules of the game and trying to make my vote worth something.


    change comes from the people utilizing their power, which isn't done with a ballot. if the people stop working, they don't have a country to run.....then we can start making change. history has shown that the ONLY way significant social progress has come has been being mass popular movements, people protesting and striking.


    changing their system from within it seems absurd, given that. and that's what you are proposing.
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Who cares what Ed thinks. So many in our society look to "celebrities" and similar as role models or points of opinion, etc. I don't know about anyone else but I don't need morals, ideas, beliefs or opinions forced upon me by anyone...and it certainly doesn't make your agreement or disagreement with the opinion any more valid or less valid because of it. It seems like people seek out these things as a way to form a sort of weird "relationship" or type of connection to a celebrity, beyond the normal fan or appreciation of what they do.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Who cares what Ed thinks. So many in our society look to "celebrities" and similar as role models or points of opinion, etc. I don't know about anyone else but I don't need morals, ideas, beliefs or opinions forced upon me by anyone...and it certainly doesn't make your agreement or disagreement with the opinion any more valid or less valid because of it. It seems like people seek out these things as a way to form a sort of weird "relationship" or type of connection to a celebrity, beyond the normal fan or appreciation of what they do.
    That's not it though, atleast for me. It's not about having someone "force" their beliefs upon you. the fact of the matter is that Ed has a huge audience that at the very least listens to what he says. they may not act upon it but in these very considerably shitty, shitty times, I think whoever has an audience willing to listen to him needs to speak the fuck up.
  • ONCE DEVIDED
    ONCE DEVIDED Posts: 1,131
    _outlaw wrote:
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Who cares what Ed thinks. So many in our society look to "celebrities" and similar as role models or points of opinion, etc. I don't know about anyone else but I don't need morals, ideas, beliefs or opinions forced upon me by anyone...and it certainly doesn't make your agreement or disagreement with the opinion any more valid or less valid because of it. It seems like people seek out these things as a way to form a sort of weird "relationship" or type of connection to a celebrity, beyond the normal fan or appreciation of what they do.
    That's not it though, atleast for me. It's not about having someone "force" their beliefs upon you. the fact of the matter is that Ed has a huge audience that at the very least listens to what he says. they may not act upon it but in these very considerably shitty, shitty times, I think whoever has an audience willing to listen to him needs to speak the fuck up.

    being a democrocy, ed has the right to speak.
    he also has the right to grow up, have a family and change his outlook.
    if your stuck in the angry ed 90's maybe you need to grow a bit yourself
    AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    There's a fine line where someone is obligated to speak up in order to help the world around them in some fashion, compared to simply stating their opinions (which is all PJ does). PJ or Ed doesn't "owe" anyone anything other than to play music in concert for people who pay to see it. Kinda goes back to my point about role models... simply because our society gives people the stage or forum to talk, doesn't make whatever happens there-after a responsibility of anyone but the audience. No matter the opinion or the person speaking, it is up to each individual to either listen or not listen, act or do not act.
    _outlaw wrote:
    That's not it though, atleast for me. It's not about having someone "force" their beliefs upon you. the fact of the matter is that Ed has a huge audience that at the very least listens to what he says. they may not act upon it but in these very considerably shitty, shitty times, I think whoever has an audience willing to listen to him needs to speak the fuck up.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • Smellyman
    Smellyman Asia Posts: 4,528
    unsung wrote:
    satansbed wrote:
    because obama isn't bad....



    Nah, he isn't that bad. I mean if I really got off being in debt and spending more than I can afford I'm sure I'd love him too.

    I assume you must lean left, dems have proved much more responsible in spending than repubs over the last 30 years.
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    ONCE DEVIDED wrote:
    _outlaw wrote:
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Who cares what Ed thinks. So many in our society look to "celebrities" and similar as role models or points of opinion, etc. I don't know about anyone else but I don't need morals, ideas, beliefs or opinions forced upon me by anyone...and it certainly doesn't make your agreement or disagreement with the opinion any more valid or less valid because of it. It seems like people seek out these things as a way to form a sort of weird "relationship" or type of connection to a celebrity, beyond the normal fan or appreciation of what they do.
    That's not it though, atleast for me. It's not about having someone "force" their beliefs upon you. the fact of the matter is that Ed has a huge audience that at the very least listens to what he says. they may not act upon it but in these very considerably shitty, shitty times, I think whoever has an audience willing to listen to him needs to speak the fuck up.

    being a democrocy, ed has the right to speak.
    he also has the right to grow up, have a family and change his outlook.
    if your stuck in the angry ed 90's maybe you need to grow a bit yourself
    since when does growing up mean your core values and morals have to change? having a family might make him have less time to devote to certain causes, absolutely, i get that, but if you care about something enough and are passionate about it, you will still find time.

    maybe he just doesn't care so much anymore.

    “I just think that all of us in this room should have a voice in how the USA is represented.

    and

    “It seems like we got the message across”

    - Eddie Vedder
  • whygohome
    whygohome Posts: 2,305
    matabele wrote:
    The real problem is US, we allow these thieves and liars to fill their pockets year after year and when they get caught, nothing ever happens.

    Thank you. For some reason, every individual who has taken a breath is under the false assumption that they are infallible.

    Forget the bull shit rhetoric that is spewed, what every problem facing this country comes down to is people. People are the problem.
  • Open
    Open Posts: 792
    Lesser of two evils. You really think things would be better with McCain and gasp Palin in office?
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    ONCE DEVIDED wrote:
    _outlaw wrote:
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Who cares what Ed thinks. So many in our society look to "celebrities" and similar as role models or points of opinion, etc. I don't know about anyone else but I don't need morals, ideas, beliefs or opinions forced upon me by anyone...and it certainly doesn't make your agreement or disagreement with the opinion any more valid or less valid because of it. It seems like people seek out these things as a way to form a sort of weird "relationship" or type of connection to a celebrity, beyond the normal fan or appreciation of what they do.
    That's not it though, atleast for me. It's not about having someone "force" their beliefs upon you. the fact of the matter is that Ed has a huge audience that at the very least listens to what he says. they may not act upon it but in these very considerably shitty, shitty times, I think whoever has an audience willing to listen to him needs to speak the fuck up.

    being a democrocy, ed has the right to speak.
    he also has the right to grow up, have a family and change his outlook.
    if your stuck in the angry ed 90's maybe you need to grow a bit yourself
    OIC. It's the "grown-ups" who are supporting the killing of innocent humans and the looting of our tax dollars. Well, we all should start acting a bit more child-like then IMO.

    It's not about Ed staying angry. It's not even about anger. It's not about trying to treat someone on this forum like a little bitch either, just because you don't understand what someone else is posting. Like someone said, Ed has a voice that is heard far better than probably anyone else's on this message board. I think he bailed on the guy he believed in. Well, I KNOW he did. That we can't even argue.

    I do think there is validity to whoever said small changes can affect a shit ton of lives. But I believe too many of the problems we face as Americans stem from the marriage of politics and corrupt business dealings. And Obama = Bush. Or at least very close to equals Bush in that category. So regardless of political party, regardless of many other issues, no sane being could argue against Nader cleaning up this aspect of corruption.

    This thread started because I wondered what may have happened for Ed to drop Ralph Nader like a bad habit and then go publicly and strongly support someone like Obama, who I believe is much the opposite of Nader.

    It's a valid question and asking it doesn't mean I need to grow up. That's just a lame attack.

    IMO, if you believe in something, you support it. I can't imagine voting for someone or something that I don't truly believe in. The two party system is a joke and everyone knows that. It's a popularity contest to see who can get how much money from greedy corporate folks who will in turn benefit greatly if their guy wins. So you tell me, how grown up is that?
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    Open wrote:
    Lesser of two evils. You really think things would be better with McCain and gasp Palin in office?
    I just don't believe that's any way to vote or to live. Lesser of two evils. It's fucking insane. It's like convincing yourself that you MUST choose between living with cockroaches or living with bedbugs when there is a nice, new, clean, uninfested apartment just around the corner waiting for you to move into. And it probably costs less too and has a bigger living room.

    Why are you willing to accept living with cockroaches or bedbugs?
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    Eliot Rosewater wrote:
    Open wrote:
    Lesser of two evils. You really think things would be better with McCain and gasp Palin in office?
    I just don't believe that's any way to vote or to live. Lesser of two evils. It's fucking insane. It's like convincing yourself that you MUST choose between living with cockroaches or living with bedbugs when there is a nice, new, clean, uninfested apartment just around the corner waiting for you to move into. And it probably costs less too and has a bigger living room.

    Why are you willing to accept living with cockroaches or bedbugs?
    exactly, lesser of 2 evils is still evil
  • kenny olav
    kenny olav Posts: 3,319
    Well, first, although Eddie has been tepid in criticizing Obama, he did make it clear that when the band played WWS back in Sept 2009, it was directed toward him as the current President, for his engagement in Afghanistan. But you're right, he has given up on a lot of the politics of his earlier days.

    So have I.

    The thing is, the Nader train is derailed and Nader himself is the biggest reason it isn't getting back on track. He is a great speaker (usually) and a tireless worker, but he needs to be a great politician too... he needs to relate to the common man to be elected President, Congressman or Mayor for that matter, and he can't. So the movement he helped build became stagnant, because a better politician hasn't yet picked up the torch. Part of it, for me anyway, it apathy-induced apathy. I continue to care about all of the injustice, but I can't get too many other people to care. And it's enough work taking care of myself and people in my family. So then you start believing in Karma just to have a reason to say "You fuckers will get what you deserve in the end, if nothing on this earth can stop you". Also, you don't necessarily need politicians to do the right thing - maybe government isn't so much the answer.
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    kenny olav wrote:
    Well, first, although Eddie has been tepid in criticizing Obama, he did make it clear that when the band played WWS back in Sept 2009, it was directed toward him as the current President, for his engagement in Afghanistan. But you're right, he has given up on a lot of the politics of his earlier days.

    So have I.

    The thing is, the Nader train is derailed and Nader himself is the biggest reason it isn't getting back on track. He is a great speaker (usually) and a tireless worker, but he needs to be a great politician too... he needs to relate to the common man to be elected President, Congressman or Mayor for that matter, and he can't. So the movement he helped build became stagnant, because a better politician hasn't yet picked up the torch. Part of it, for me anyway, it apathy-induced apathy. I continue to care about all of the injustice, but I can't get too many other people to care. And it's enough work taking care of myself and people in my family. So then you start believing in Karma just to have a reason to say "You fuckers will get what you deserve in the end, if nothing on this earth can stop you". Also, you don't necessarily need politicians to do the right thing - maybe government isn't so much the answer.
    I appreciate your post.

    Apathy is a huge part of it. But Apathy doesn't make him publicly support someone else, does it? If Nader has run his course, then fine. But it confuses me when he throws his support behind someone like Obama. You don't have to publicly support anyone if you don't believe in any of them or think they'll make good presidents. If there are no good options on the ballot I would rather write-in or not vote at all than to vote for someone who believes in the opposite of what I think is good and right for the country. To support someone like Nader and then turn around and support someone who is quite the opposite in Obama....who knows, maybe Ed's working for him now....or the CIA...ya can't trust anyone these days... :(
  • Open
    Open Posts: 792
    Eliot Rosewater wrote:
    Open wrote:
    Lesser of two evils. You really think things would be better with McCain and gasp Palin in office?
    I just don't believe that's any way to vote or to live. Lesser of two evils. It's fucking insane. It's like convincing yourself that you MUST choose between living with cockroaches or living with bedbugs when there is a nice, new, clean, uninfested apartment just around the corner waiting for you to move into. And it probably costs less too and has a bigger living room.

    Why are you willing to accept living with cockroaches or bedbugs?

    I agree but its a sad reality.
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    Eliot Rosewater wrote:
    if Nader has run his course, then fine.
    i applaud naders ideals, he's a brilliant and selfless activist. he would leave these other clowns for dead given the opportunity.

    i'm not so sure that he has run his course. i think if nader had a workable plan to change everything that he 'talks' about, more would vote for him in a heartbeat.

    i wish he had the courage to wage a serious campaign as a presidential candidate. i mean a really serious one. you can't come out at the last minute and talk about all these things that you would like to change if you have not got a workable plan to start with. it's just a tease otherwise.
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    Eliot Rosewater wrote:
    if Nader has run his course, then fine.
    i applaud naders ideals, he's a brilliant and selfless activist. he would leave these other clowns for dead given the opportunity.

    i'm not so sure that he has run his course. i think if nader had a workable plan to change everything that he 'talks' about, more would vote for him in a heartbeat.

    i wish he had the courage to wage a serious campaign as a presidential candidate. i mean a really serious one. you can't come out at the last minute and talk about all these things that you would like to change if you have not got a workable plan to start with. it's just a tease otherwise.
    i think all this blame toward nader is a bit unjustified, and overlooks the fact that post-9/11 American politics has gone completely backwards. there won't be another 3rd party move like 2000 for a long time because of just how stupidly "patriotic" America has become. a guy like Nader wanting to responsibly end wars and American intervention in the rest of the world won't be taken seriously in this security-obsessed pseudo-fearful atmosphere.
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    how many people voted for Bush a second time?

    how many people voted for Obama just because he was the black guy and they believed he was another Dr King? ludicrous. one of these men spent his whole life fighting against militarism and economic exploitation and yet the other surrounds himself with bankers and militarists.

    that's the mentality you're dealing with.

    you can't fix stupid.
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Let them all reap what they sow - tenfold.
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    how many people voted for Bush a second time?

    how many people voted for Obama just because he was the black guy and they believed he was another Dr King? ludicrous. one of these men spent his whole life fighting against militarism and economic exploitation and yet the other surrounds himself with bankers and militarists.

    that's the mentality you're dealing with.

    you can't fix stupid.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis

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