The Faces of Public Opinion

polaris_x
polaris_x Posts: 13,559
edited August 2010 in A Moving Train
Here we have two stories - I will summarize but if you want to learn more just search for it ...

case 1: Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani - sentenced to death by stoning for being "an accessory to murder" loosely used as they are charging her with adultery which led to the death of her husband ...

http://forums.pearljam.com/viewtopic.ph ... an+stoning


case 2: Omar Khadr - captured in afghanistan at the age of 15 allegedly for throwing a grenade that killed a US soldier and held without charge for over 6 years and is now facing trial in a military court

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr

*********************************************
soo - what do these cases have in common? ... well, the first is that both these people initially denied their charges ... and both were severely tortured ... a "confession" was brought forth after days of torture ...

what is the difference? well, international support and who the "justice system is" ... sakineh has received significant international support, many from the US and her death has been temporarily spared ... the Iranian gov't has largely been condemned by all states and organizations ... meanwhile omar khadr today sits in a courtroom in the United States where torture is an acceptable way of garnering information ... by all independent studies - omar khadr did NOT in fact throw the grenade and was just hiding in the building ... don't get me wrong ... omar khadr was there to fight for his people but evidence is that he did not kill that soldier ... in the 6+ years he's been held without charge ... he has had basically every basic human right denied to him as a child ... geneva conventions thrown out the window and he has had zero political support from the Conservative Cdn Gov't ... Omar Khadr is Canadian and is the ONLY non-westernized citizen to stay at guantanamo bay for the entire time without being helped by his gov't and removed ...

it boils down to this: because it's the iranian gov't - we come down with fury ... and because it is the US gov't - we turn a blind eye ...

we should be ashamed of democratic justice system that is willing to hold a child in guantanamo bay for 7 years without trial and then finally decide to do so in a kangaroo court ... :(
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    good post and good question..

    one of the main interrogators of Khadr has admitted that they tortured and threatened him with sending him to another prison where he would be locked in, raped and then killed by other prisoners. he was 15 years old and he was very badly injured.

    i don't understand how the military judge could decide that the statements he made under duress, while he was being interrogated, can be allowed as evidence in the trial. doesn't that make that confession inadmissable? besides, i thought civilized countries didn't condone torture. whatever happened to using direct, conclusive evidence to get a conviction? Should be easy enough right?

    oh wait...

    the prosecutors have no eyewitnesses or forensic evidence tying Khadr to the killing.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    good post and good question..

    one of the main interrogators of Khadr has admitted that they tortured and threatened him with sending him to another prison where he would be locked in, raped and then killed by other prisoners. he was 15 years old and he was very badly injured.

    i don't understand how the military judge could decide that the statements he made under duress, while he was being interrogated, can be allowed as evidence in the trial. doesn't that make that confession inadmissable? besides, i thought civilized countries didn't condone torture. whatever happened to using direct, conclusive evidence to get a conviction? Should be easy enough right?

    oh wait...

    the prosecutors have no eyewitnesses or forensic evidence tying Khadr to the killing.

    ya ... i mean at this stage in the game - we should not be surprised necessarily with the actions of the US gov't ...

    i suppose the point of my thread was showing the hypocrisy we have ... i'm sure everyone to a T was condemning in the iranian gov't ... if anyone said but she confessed - we would automatically say she was tortured ... well, when the shoe is on the other foot ... it's sad how many stay silent ...
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    it does show the hypocrisy and it's very sad how many stay silent.

    personally, i don't know how they can.
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,327
    I think if the US military courts find Omar guilty and then sentence him to be buried up to his waist in the dirt while the jury throws stones at him until he dies, then you will see more of a public outcry for his case.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    Jason P wrote:
    I think if the US military courts find Omar guilty and then sentence him to be buried up to his waist in the dirt while the jury throws stones at him until he dies, then you will see more of a public outcry for his case.
    i was outraged at the treatment of Ashtiani and i'm equally outraged at the treatment of Khadr.

    the weird thing is, most americans would applaud my outrage over Ashtiani's treatment, and yet a lot of those same people would consider my outrage at America over Khadr's treatment as unjustified and that to me makes no sense.

    therein lies the hypocrisy.
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,405
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    Jason P wrote:
    I think if the US military courts find Omar guilty and then sentence him to be buried up to his waist in the dirt while the jury throws stones at him until he dies, then you will see more of a public outcry for his case.
    i was outraged at the treatment of Ashtiani and i'm equally outraged at the treatment of Khadr.

    the weird thing is, most americans would applaud my outrage over Ashtiani's treatment, and yet a lot of those same people would consider my outrage at America over Khadr's treatment as unjustified and that to me makes no sense.

    therein lies the hypocrisy.
    the latter is an acused "enemy combatant" even though he was the same age as a regular high school freshman or sophomore. "enemy combatant" resonates and seems much worse than any other accusation against any non-american. lest we forget that every captured american soldier can be called an enemy combatant by the taliban but that is another thread....the former is accused of adultery, the same thing that happens every day in america so i doubt what she is accused of resonates as much with a desensitized american public. i am outraged by the treatment of both, yet the easily manipulated american public have already convicted Omar in the court of public opinion...it is ironic how people will go out of their way to stand up for the woman yet the silence is deafening with regard to Omar...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • mikepegg44
    mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    Jason P wrote:
    I think if the US military courts find Omar guilty and then sentence him to be buried up to his waist in the dirt while the jury throws stones at him until he dies, then you will see more of a public outcry for his case.
    i was outraged at the treatment of Ashtiani and i'm equally outraged at the treatment of Khadr.

    the weird thing is, most americans would applaud my outrage over Ashtiani's treatment, and yet a lot of those same people would consider my outrage at America over Khadr's treatment as unjustified and that to me makes no sense.

    therein lies the hypocrisy.
    the latter is an acused "enemy combatant" even though he was the same age as a regular high school freshman or sophomore. "enemy combatant" resonates and seems much worse than any other accusation against any non-american. lest we forget that every captured american soldier can be called an enemy combatant by the taliban but that is another thread....the former is accused of adultery, the same thing that happens every day in america so i doubt what she is accused of resonates as much with a desensitized american public. i am outraged by the treatment of both, yet the easily manipulated american public have already convicted Omar in the court of public opinion...it is ironic how people will go out of their way to stand up for the woman yet the silence is deafening with regard to Omar...

    The hard part is telling the lies from the truth. I guarantee you if you, me, Triumphant angel and Jason P got north, south, east, and west from this incident we would all have different stories of how we saw it. That doesn't mean we are purposely telling lies. The outrage should not be the same, one is death because of adultery, the other is actively participating in a war and after you were given ample time to surrender and possibly have things go differently, they chose a firefight. I dont know...I am not a fan of torture and certainly think that these prisoners deserve their day in court...but I would be outraged if people were treating this as the same. Hypocrisy maybe, but these two actions are not the same.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,327
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    the latter is an acused "enemy combatant" even though he was the same age as a regular high school freshman or sophomore. "enemy combatant" resonates and seems much worse than any other accusation against any non-american. lest we forget that every captured american soldier can be called an enemy combatant by the taliban but that is another thread....the former is accused of adultery, the same thing that happens every day in america so i doubt what she is accused of resonates as much with a desensitized american public. i am outraged by the treatment of both, yet the easily manipulated american public have already convicted Omar in the court of public opinion...it is ironic how people will go out of their way to stand up for the woman yet the silence is deafening with regard to Omar...
    I agree with your assessment that he will not get the benefit of the doubt from the American public since he is an enemy combatant. I think that type of public reaction is basic sociology, not just an American trait. I for instance have empathy for what wrongs were committed by his parents that led him to be involved in terrorist groups, but I have apathy for his current situation and if he is being treated fairly.

    It's too bad his father took him into a world of violence and brainwashing that eventually led to his incarceration. He should be sitting in Toronto right now enjoying a beer with his friends and discussing the upcoming Maple Leaf season.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    The hard part is telling the lies from the truth. I guarantee you if you, me, Triumphant angel and Jason P got north, south, east, and west from this incident we would all have different stories of how we saw it. That doesn't mean we are purposely telling lies. The outrage should not be the same, one is death because of adultery, the other is actively participating in a war and after you were given ample time to surrender and possibly have things go differently, they chose a firefight. I dont know...I am not a fan of torture and certainly think that these prisoners deserve their day in court...but I would be outraged if people were treating this as the same. Hypocrisy maybe, but these two actions are not the same.

    many sides of the story have in fact been told ... read up on it ... this is for certain - there is no evidence against him except for his confession done after two days of torture against a 15 year old kid ... in fact, all the evidence points to his innocence but apparently torturing a child for 2 days is more relevant ...

    let's say this was a naturalized-american kid from say sri lanka who went back was caught in a fight with the tamil tigers and they captured and tortured him and presented a confession - what would you think?
  • mikepegg44
    mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    Jason P wrote:
    He should be sitting in Toronto right now enjoying a beer with his friends and discussing the upcoming Maple Leaf season.
    which I would argue would be worse torture than waterboarding... :lol:
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    Jason P wrote:
    He should be sitting in Toronto right now enjoying a beer with his friends and discussing the upcoming Maple Leaf season.
    which I would argue would be worse torture than waterboarding... :lol:


    hahaha ... :lol: ... we're on our way back!!!!!! ...
  • mikepegg44
    mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    polaris_x wrote:
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    The hard part is telling the lies from the truth. I guarantee you if you, me, Triumphant angel and Jason P got north, south, east, and west from this incident we would all have different stories of how we saw it. That doesn't mean we are purposely telling lies. The outrage should not be the same, one is death because of adultery, the other is actively participating in a war and after you were given ample time to surrender and possibly have things go differently, they chose a firefight. I dont know...I am not a fan of torture and certainly think that these prisoners deserve their day in court...but I would be outraged if people were treating this as the same. Hypocrisy maybe, but these two actions are not the same.

    many sides of the story have in fact been told ... read up on it ... this is for certain - there is no evidence against him except for his confession done after two days of torture against a 15 year old kid ... in fact, all the evidence points to his innocence but apparently torturing a child for 2 days is more relevant ...

    let's say this was a naturalized-american kid from say sri lanka who went back was caught in a fight with the tamil tigers and they captured and tortured him and presented a confession - what would you think?

    I did read as much as I could since I saw this post, as I was not too familiar with the situation. Was the kid just strolling through? in the account I read it seemed like a lot of the doubts in the case were from conflicting eyewitness accounts.
    I certainly wouldn't be as outraged by that situation you pose as I would be if a gal was going to be executed by rocks for cheating on her husband...American or not
    Do you actually believe that being captured in a firefight and adultery are on the same level? I am not condoning torture by the way, and hope that this kid gets a fair trial.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • mikepegg44
    mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    polaris_x wrote:
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    Jason P wrote:
    He should be sitting in Toronto right now enjoying a beer with his friends and discussing the upcoming Maple Leaf season.
    which I would argue would be worse torture than waterboarding... :lol:


    hahaha ... :lol: ... we're on our way back!!!!!! ...



    yeah, you can come join the Wild in mediocrity!!!
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    I did read as much as I could since I saw this post, as I was not too familiar with the situation. Was the kid just strolling through? in the account I read it seemed like a lot of the doubts in the case were from conflicting eyewitness accounts.
    I certainly wouldn't be as outraged by that situation you pose as I would be if a gal was going to be executed by rocks for cheating on her husband...American or not
    Do you actually believe that being captured in a firefight and adultery are on the same level? I am not condoning torture by the way, and hope that this kid gets a fair trial.

    firstly - as far as omar khadr is concerned, i already said he isn't totally innocent of all crimes but the fact remains that incident reports were doctored, he was shot in the back and was unconscious when the grenade that killed the US soldier was thrown ... a grenade that creates injuries/death that is consistent with those used by coalition forces ... in essence, similar to pat tilman - this soldier died of friendly fire and they tried to pin it on a 15 year old kid who had sack of shit parents ... a kid they tortured to get a confession ...

    secondly - captured in a firefight and adultery are not on the same level but that has never been the assertation here ... the assertation is that people's opinion of a situation is dependent on who the perpetrator is and who the accuser is ... if the kid was american and the accuser was iranian - everyone would be up in arms ... but this poor kid has spent nearly a third of his entire life in guantanamo bay for being at the wrong place and the wrong time ...
  • mikepegg44
    mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    polaris_x wrote:
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    I did read as much as I could since I saw this post, as I was not too familiar with the situation. Was the kid just strolling through? in the account I read it seemed like a lot of the doubts in the case were from conflicting eyewitness accounts.
    I certainly wouldn't be as outraged by that situation you pose as I would be if a gal was going to be executed by rocks for cheating on her husband...American or not
    Do you actually believe that being captured in a firefight and adultery are on the same level? I am not condoning torture by the way, and hope that this kid gets a fair trial.
    secondly - captured in a firefight and adultery are not on the same level but that has never been the assertation here ... the assertation is that people's opinion of a situation is dependent on who the perpetrator is and who the accuser is ... if the kid was american and the accuser was iranian - everyone would be up in arms ... but this poor kid has spent nearly a third of his entire life in guantanamo bay for being at the wrong place and the wrong time ...
    Well to me that seems like equating the two. I really don't think people are as upset about how the woman confessed as they are about her being stoned to death for adultery... I think there are plenty of americans who are angry about the treatment of people at guantanamo bay, what would you want them to do to prove they are angry enough? Ask for and elect leaders that promised to close it? We did that in this country, the politicians haven't held up their end and will be punished for those things in subsequent elections.
    I really don't think the issue is who the accuser is in a situation like death for adultery, people here would be just as outraged if Canada or the UK was pulling shit like that. I do think the background of the perpetrator and accuser matters in a war situation...but that is just me.
    and like I said, I hope this kid ends up getting a fair trial in accordance to how Juveniles should be treated.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    international outcry stayed her execution ...
    there has been no international outcry except from your typical human right organizations on omar khadr ...
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,405
    polaris_x wrote:
    international outcry stayed her execution ...
    there has been no international outcry except from your typical human right organizations on omar khadr ...
    her execution has not been stayed...only the stoning has...i read on the guardian website yesterday she is facing hanging instead of stoning. i will see if that story is still on their website...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,405
    actually is was from the christian science monitor linked to the guardian...

    http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terroris ... to-hanging
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    international outcry stayed her execution ...
    there has been no international outcry except from your typical human right organizations on omar khadr ...
    her execution has not been stayed...only the stoning has...i read on the guardian website yesterday she is facing hanging instead of stoning. i will see if that story is still on their website...

    yes ... sorry - as i mentioned in my earlier post - the execution was temporarily stayed ... i know they still want to execute her ...
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,327
    polaris_x wrote:
    let's say this was a naturalized-american kid from say sri lanka who went back was caught in a fight with the tamil tigers and they captured and tortured him and presented a confession - what would you think?

    I can equate this to several real life examples:

    * Three hikers captured by Iran
    * Journalists crossing into North Korea illegally
    * The dude from Colorado that went looking for Bin Laden in Pakistan

    Yes, they are all Americans but all of these people should have been aware of the danger they were putting themselves in . . . with the possible exception of case study #3 as he may be nuts. Even in the case of the hikers (which may have been several miles from the border when arrested) , the Iraq / Iran border is not a place where a U.S. citizen should be hanging out.

    There is an exception when I feel empathy for civilians that enter war zones and that is for those that provide aid.

    In regards to the hypothetical Sri Lanka situation, did the American get caught in a random event while sight seeing? Did he enter an area that the U.S. Embassy warned for Americans to stay clear of? Are the Tamil Tigers a recognized government or a terrorist organization? Was he over there fighting and training with a local group that is battling the Tigers? Were there videotapes of him helping assemble IED's and planting land mines? I would need more information before making judgement.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!

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