The Faces of Public Opinion
polaris_x
Posts: 13,559
Here we have two stories - I will summarize but if you want to learn more just search for it ...
case 1: Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani - sentenced to death by stoning for being "an accessory to murder" loosely used as they are charging her with adultery which led to the death of her husband ...
http://forums.pearljam.com/viewtopic.ph ... an+stoning
case 2: Omar Khadr - captured in afghanistan at the age of 15 allegedly for throwing a grenade that killed a US soldier and held without charge for over 6 years and is now facing trial in a military court
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr
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soo - what do these cases have in common? ... well, the first is that both these people initially denied their charges ... and both were severely tortured ... a "confession" was brought forth after days of torture ...
what is the difference? well, international support and who the "justice system is" ... sakineh has received significant international support, many from the US and her death has been temporarily spared ... the Iranian gov't has largely been condemned by all states and organizations ... meanwhile omar khadr today sits in a courtroom in the United States where torture is an acceptable way of garnering information ... by all independent studies - omar khadr did NOT in fact throw the grenade and was just hiding in the building ... don't get me wrong ... omar khadr was there to fight for his people but evidence is that he did not kill that soldier ... in the 6+ years he's been held without charge ... he has had basically every basic human right denied to him as a child ... geneva conventions thrown out the window and he has had zero political support from the Conservative Cdn Gov't ... Omar Khadr is Canadian and is the ONLY non-westernized citizen to stay at guantanamo bay for the entire time without being helped by his gov't and removed ...
it boils down to this: because it's the iranian gov't - we come down with fury ... and because it is the US gov't - we turn a blind eye ...
we should be ashamed of democratic justice system that is willing to hold a child in guantanamo bay for 7 years without trial and then finally decide to do so in a kangaroo court ... :(
case 1: Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani - sentenced to death by stoning for being "an accessory to murder" loosely used as they are charging her with adultery which led to the death of her husband ...
http://forums.pearljam.com/viewtopic.ph ... an+stoning
case 2: Omar Khadr - captured in afghanistan at the age of 15 allegedly for throwing a grenade that killed a US soldier and held without charge for over 6 years and is now facing trial in a military court
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr
*********************************************
soo - what do these cases have in common? ... well, the first is that both these people initially denied their charges ... and both were severely tortured ... a "confession" was brought forth after days of torture ...
what is the difference? well, international support and who the "justice system is" ... sakineh has received significant international support, many from the US and her death has been temporarily spared ... the Iranian gov't has largely been condemned by all states and organizations ... meanwhile omar khadr today sits in a courtroom in the United States where torture is an acceptable way of garnering information ... by all independent studies - omar khadr did NOT in fact throw the grenade and was just hiding in the building ... don't get me wrong ... omar khadr was there to fight for his people but evidence is that he did not kill that soldier ... in the 6+ years he's been held without charge ... he has had basically every basic human right denied to him as a child ... geneva conventions thrown out the window and he has had zero political support from the Conservative Cdn Gov't ... Omar Khadr is Canadian and is the ONLY non-westernized citizen to stay at guantanamo bay for the entire time without being helped by his gov't and removed ...
it boils down to this: because it's the iranian gov't - we come down with fury ... and because it is the US gov't - we turn a blind eye ...
we should be ashamed of democratic justice system that is willing to hold a child in guantanamo bay for 7 years without trial and then finally decide to do so in a kangaroo court ... :(
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one of the main interrogators of Khadr has admitted that they tortured and threatened him with sending him to another prison where he would be locked in, raped and then killed by other prisoners. he was 15 years old and he was very badly injured.
i don't understand how the military judge could decide that the statements he made under duress, while he was being interrogated, can be allowed as evidence in the trial. doesn't that make that confession inadmissable? besides, i thought civilized countries didn't condone torture. whatever happened to using direct, conclusive evidence to get a conviction? Should be easy enough right?
oh wait...
the prosecutors have no eyewitnesses or forensic evidence tying Khadr to the killing.
ya ... i mean at this stage in the game - we should not be surprised necessarily with the actions of the US gov't ...
i suppose the point of my thread was showing the hypocrisy we have ... i'm sure everyone to a T was condemning in the iranian gov't ... if anyone said but she confessed - we would automatically say she was tortured ... well, when the shoe is on the other foot ... it's sad how many stay silent ...
personally, i don't know how they can.
the weird thing is, most americans would applaud my outrage over Ashtiani's treatment, and yet a lot of those same people would consider my outrage at America over Khadr's treatment as unjustified and that to me makes no sense.
therein lies the hypocrisy.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
The hard part is telling the lies from the truth. I guarantee you if you, me, Triumphant angel and Jason P got north, south, east, and west from this incident we would all have different stories of how we saw it. That doesn't mean we are purposely telling lies. The outrage should not be the same, one is death because of adultery, the other is actively participating in a war and after you were given ample time to surrender and possibly have things go differently, they chose a firefight. I dont know...I am not a fan of torture and certainly think that these prisoners deserve their day in court...but I would be outraged if people were treating this as the same. Hypocrisy maybe, but these two actions are not the same.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
It's too bad his father took him into a world of violence and brainwashing that eventually led to his incarceration. He should be sitting in Toronto right now enjoying a beer with his friends and discussing the upcoming Maple Leaf season.
many sides of the story have in fact been told ... read up on it ... this is for certain - there is no evidence against him except for his confession done after two days of torture against a 15 year old kid ... in fact, all the evidence points to his innocence but apparently torturing a child for 2 days is more relevant ...
let's say this was a naturalized-american kid from say sri lanka who went back was caught in a fight with the tamil tigers and they captured and tortured him and presented a confession - what would you think?
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
hahaha ...
I did read as much as I could since I saw this post, as I was not too familiar with the situation. Was the kid just strolling through? in the account I read it seemed like a lot of the doubts in the case were from conflicting eyewitness accounts.
I certainly wouldn't be as outraged by that situation you pose as I would be if a gal was going to be executed by rocks for cheating on her husband...American or not
Do you actually believe that being captured in a firefight and adultery are on the same level? I am not condoning torture by the way, and hope that this kid gets a fair trial.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
yeah, you can come join the Wild in mediocrity!!!
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
firstly - as far as omar khadr is concerned, i already said he isn't totally innocent of all crimes but the fact remains that incident reports were doctored, he was shot in the back and was unconscious when the grenade that killed the US soldier was thrown ... a grenade that creates injuries/death that is consistent with those used by coalition forces ... in essence, similar to pat tilman - this soldier died of friendly fire and they tried to pin it on a 15 year old kid who had sack of shit parents ... a kid they tortured to get a confession ...
secondly - captured in a firefight and adultery are not on the same level but that has never been the assertation here ... the assertation is that people's opinion of a situation is dependent on who the perpetrator is and who the accuser is ... if the kid was american and the accuser was iranian - everyone would be up in arms ... but this poor kid has spent nearly a third of his entire life in guantanamo bay for being at the wrong place and the wrong time ...
I really don't think the issue is who the accuser is in a situation like death for adultery, people here would be just as outraged if Canada or the UK was pulling shit like that. I do think the background of the perpetrator and accuser matters in a war situation...but that is just me.
and like I said, I hope this kid ends up getting a fair trial in accordance to how Juveniles should be treated.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
there has been no international outcry except from your typical human right organizations on omar khadr ...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terroris ... to-hanging
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
yes ... sorry - as i mentioned in my earlier post - the execution was temporarily stayed ... i know they still want to execute her ...
I can equate this to several real life examples:
* Three hikers captured by Iran
* Journalists crossing into North Korea illegally
* The dude from Colorado that went looking for Bin Laden in Pakistan
Yes, they are all Americans but all of these people should have been aware of the danger they were putting themselves in . . . with the possible exception of case study #3 as he may be nuts. Even in the case of the hikers (which may have been several miles from the border when arrested) , the Iraq / Iran border is not a place where a U.S. citizen should be hanging out.
There is an exception when I feel empathy for civilians that enter war zones and that is for those that provide aid.
In regards to the hypothetical Sri Lanka situation, did the American get caught in a random event while sight seeing? Did he enter an area that the U.S. Embassy warned for Americans to stay clear of? Are the Tamil Tigers a recognized government or a terrorist organization? Was he over there fighting and training with a local group that is battling the Tigers? Were there videotapes of him helping assemble IED's and planting land mines? I would need more information before making judgement.