71% Mo. voters reject key provision of health care law

haffajappa wrote:

Trains and trolly systems, while we're on that topic, wouldn't work in the USA for the same reason healthcare wouldn't work (apparently) - and that is mindset..

The thing is, if americans would actually understand what a national health system is, the advantages, etc., they would be clamouring for it. As it stands, there is so much false information (scaremongering) and yes, the perception of such a system - seen as something like medicare/medicaid, something for the poor, not for your proud, hardworking american! But it's not.... Again, I repeat, it's not a perfect system, it has it flaws but the pros more than outweigh the cons.

redrock wrote:

haffajappa wrote:

Trains and trolly systems, while we're on that topic, wouldn't work in the USA for the same reason healthcare wouldn't work (apparently) - and that is mindset..

The thing is, if americans would actually understand what a national health system is, the advantages, etc., they would be clamouring for it. As it stands, there is so much false information (scaremongering) and yes, the perception of such a system - seen as something like medicare/medicaid, something for the poor, not for your proud, hardworking american! But it's not.... Again, I repeat, it's not a perfect system, it has it flaws but the pros more than outweigh the cons.

Tell me about it.
They love to use our waitlists to scare the bajeebies out of the USA.

Our system needs work, but privatization is just moving backwards.

redrock wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

So why would you attempt to say that paying more taxes and getting something beneficial for everyone in society (like healthcare) is a bad thing?

One would pay more taxes but would not have to factor in the cost of insurance premiums, co-payment, the risk of insurance not paying, etc. in their budget.

Because its communism!

FiveB247x wrote:

If you can't take a sample/example and apply it in the same fashion to other groups (larger or smaller), everything we know in the world wouldn't be as it is. Economics, global development, finance, exportation of beliefs, customs, rights or even democracy in practice... none of it would be relevant because you're not comparing it to the same exact group. So in sum, it's always relevant and provides for data to compare, contrast, learn or experience from.

HeidiJam wrote:

No, can you tell me about it, and how it applys?

heidijam, five beat me to it. but in addition to what five stated, generalization is comparing how well something works in a controlled setting or population and how well it generalizes or applies to the population as a whole. you claim to have a college education, so i am assuming you had some sort of statistics class or some sort of research classes. one of the questions you always need to ask yourself when doing any sort of experiment (as universal health care in the US would be) or research is "how well will my findings apply to or "generalize" to the rest of the population?" what redrock stated and you dismissed out of hand saying "the population is too small" is very infantile and emotional and reactive thinking. you take those numbers and figures from the smaller population of the country where redrock resides and you generailze them and use mathematics to compare them to a larger population like the state of california or the entire united states. until you do that you can never, ever say "that will not work in this country". there is a difference between comparing hard numbers and doing a mathematical analysis on them and your opinion that something will not work because you say it will not work...

mikepegg44 wrote:

haffajappa wrote:

Our system needs work, but privatization is just moving backwards.

you can turn grapes into a wine, but you cannot turn a wine into a grape.

When you talk about healthcare as an industry, right or wrong you are talking about roughly 1/6th of our economy. It is huge...contrary to what some may think, these companies actually have people who work for them. These people rely on this private industry to survive. Putting this genie back in the bottle is not as simple as moving to a universal system.
Personally I would love a universal system, but it just isn't that simple, that is why we get a monstrosity like the recent health care bill.
Tough to say which one truly benefits society more...but always remember this, people here (minnesota) go to the emergency room for bad colds...

also, I think it is ingrained in most Americans to have a distrust of all things Authority...especially if the authority is doing things you disagree with. I don't have a problem with authority, more along the lines of their ability to exercise that authority in a cost effective beneficial way

i do not care about the for profit health insurance corporations in this country. not one bit. they are only in business for one reason and one reason alone: it is easy to turn a profit in the insurance industry. not just turn a profit, but turn an insanely large profit at the expense of those that pay their premiums every pay period. they do that by denying care and dictating medical care by saying "we will pay for THIS procedure, but not THAT procedure". it is disgusting. the simple solution to prevent a government takeover as so many fear is this....make it illegal for these corporations to turn a profit. they can stay in business but must be non-profit. if that were mandated, the companies that claim to care about patients will stay in business and provide health insuranc for all. all of the for-profit bastard corporations will get out of the business and then we would have either a non-profit system or a government run universal single payer system. it is s simple solution to me...

heidihi wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

HediJam - you ever gonna post any backup for your claims about healthcare costs or insurance being affordable?

But I still stand in my opinion that We deem what is affordable by our actions and decisions through life. We all have the means to get educations, and choosing the field in which we study. I don't think blaming other people for things that are in yoru control, such as education, jobs, etc.. is the right way to solve the problem.
Also I think there something missing form those stats. I didn't see anything about the automobile and airline industry that had all those lay offs, and those companies were carrying 100% health care insurance for their employees. As that could skew the stats.

Yes people can obtain an education but not all are given the same opportunities to access that education. I am a high school teacher and you keep saying that everybody is given the same right to education .... no they are not. Many kids come from backgrounds where parents do not value education and the students are not given the support required for them to break through the poverty cycle. Yes a few do break out but not many.... I did..... It is fairly naive to assume that because people can go to school that they have the tools or the support that is required to be able to freely choose their paths in lives. If nobody will support or help you or your parent devalues your learning it is hard to get enough kudo to want to work hard enough to achieve even partial success. Teachers can only do so much... So quite often and not always, kids decisions are cut off from them, and the cycle of poverty (and in the US I am assuming a lack of health care) continues.

How does having bad parents mean they don't have the same access?

mikepegg44 wrote:

haffajappa wrote:

Our system needs work, but privatization is just moving backwards.

you can turn grapes into a wine, but you cannot turn a wine into a grape.

When you talk about healthcare as an industry, right or wrong you are talking about roughly 1/6th of our economy. It is huge...contrary to what some may think, these companies actually have people who work for them. These people rely on this private industry to survive. Putting this genie back in the bottle is not as simple as moving to a universal system.
Personally I would love a universal system, but it just isn't that simple, that is why we get a monstrosity like the recent health care bill.
Tough to say which one truly benefits society more...but always remember this, people here (minnesota) go to the emergency room for bad colds...

also, I think it is ingrained in most Americans to have a distrust of all things Authority...especially if the authority is doing things you disagree with. I don't have a problem with authority, more along the lines of their ability to exercise that authority in a cost effective beneficial way

ehh, don't worry about the people working for these companies.

...according to heidijam there are TONS of jobs in your country that lazy people just aren't taking advantage of!

Absolutely, everything is connected.

haffajappa wrote:

I used to work at a community school, you should have seen some of those parents.
Having their next fix or finding the new boyfriend was more important than reading with their children or even getting them to school on time.

Also, its pretty obvious but if the parents can't break through the poverty cycle i'm pretty sure they can't pay for their children to attend university.
Like I said, how many high end jobs can you get with a high school diploma?

heidihi wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

How does having bad parents mean they don't have the same access?

If parents do not value education, in most instances the kids will never be given the level of support that most successful learners require. If you are told there is no point, not many kids are grown up enough to look beyond it (some are but not many). The idea that equal educational opportunity is available to all is middle class bullshit to help the cashed up feel a little better about themselves.

I think all have equal access to primary/secondary school (whatever it is called in the US - up until end of high school) and education as there are schools and all children are expected to attend up to a certain age. Whether all children have an equal opportunity to take advantage of that access and benefit from it, that's a different story. This is where family situation/ethos, family finances, community, intellectual/physical capabilities come into play. Also, all schools are not equal insofar as quality of the school and the teachers and 'quality' of the pupils. Naturally, this also has a huge impact on what a child can hope to achieve. We all know, there are good schools and bad schools. Unfortunately, most 'bad' schools will usually have the pupils with less 'motivation' and support.

Further education is a competely different issue.

heidihi wrote:

redrock wrote:

Further education is a competely different issue.

I know but my point is that a person's education in a capitalist system is usually directly linked to their capacity to earns an income and thus medical insurance. :

In general it is, yes. Stats prove that children from certain backgrounds do not fare as well as those from better off backgrounds and thus has an impact on their further education, future jobs and earnings.

As much as we would like it, we are not born equal and, whilst it's true one can always strive to change their 'path' and some are very successful at this, it is not always achievable (through no particular fault of their own).

It is to be noted also that a lot of 'successful' people from better backgrounds are not in the jobs they studied for/strived for and can't afford healthcare. I did see statistics about the number of people that are in jobs far below their level of achievement and it's shocking. One can have a great degree, but if there is no work in the field or at the required level, they flip burgers at some fast food place.