this law was passed because the fed govt wasnt doing it's job in protecting the borders. It obviously has become such a problem that Arizona had to take such drastic measures. Racial profiling is wrong, but unfortunately it works and is cost effective. I live on Long island and I could tell you exactly where to go and you would find 30 illegals any given day looking for work. This law enables police to go to these "hot spots" and ask for proper identification, something they are allowed to do by law. Next time a police officer asks you for id , tell him no and see what happens. you dont have the right to conceal your identity if law enforcement asks for it. This is not a new law really, just it is being enforced now.
I'll say it again, because apparently its not sinking in: if you want to stop illegal immigration, make it unprofitable! If the federal government were to pass extensive regulating legislation on employers of undocumented workers, so that its unprofitable to employ undocumented workers, conservatives would cry "socialism!" But when the federal government hasn't passed such regulation, they've "failed to act." Ridiculous!
The problem here is not the federal government's! Its a culture of impunity for big business! If Home Depot wants to employ 5,000 undocumented workers and thus provide an incentive for workers to migrate here, no one bats an eye as long as prices remain low. Its the same with construction, retail, agricultural, and service industries. Everyone wants to complain about the undocumented worker but no one wants to point out the real culprits: big businesses who like to get around labor laws!
So as I stated before: if you want to stop illegal immigration, make it unprofitable! Target the businesses, not the workers.
And as for whether or not racial profiling "works," that's really irrelevant. Its unconstitutional! It is unconstitutional to pass any law that discriminates based on race or ethnicity or has the effect of doing so! Read your constitutional case law!
In the mean time, I haven't heard one conservative response as to why conservatives hate the US tax code (as an excessive extension of federal power) but yet support expansion of federal immigration enforcement (as a just use of federal power). Racism anyone?
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Uh yeah, sorry dude, its different. Arizona passing a borderline racist law that forces state officers to perform federal tasks and the rest of the country decrying it is pretty different that someone in NY protesting a benign topic like Kansas' subway system or lack thereof.
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exactly, and our country has a process for people who want to come and live here. Arizona's proximity to the border creates a huge problem for them. Since the fed govt cant/wont address the issue of border control, Arizona is being forced to take a stand on it's own , or until the fed govt can do it's job.
and again, since when is it against the law for a police officer to ask for ID ?
Its not against the law for an officer to request ID; its against the law when he does so for a discriminatory reason, like race, ethnicity, national origin, gender etc. That's precisely the problem with this law; how do you tell if someone is here illegally? By how they look? By speaking spanish? By working construction? By where they live? Should officers in Arizona question every latino male working construction for his ID? What about African immigrants? What about Asian immigrants? Where would it stop? This law is what's referred to as a "slippery slope" in that it opens the door wide open for abuse and for expansive, unchecked racial profiling.
And I still haven't heard why Arizona shouldn't be targeting the businesses instead of the workers with this law. Wouldn't that go right to the source of illegal immigration?
Oy. I've got a Twins game to get to.
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this law was passed because the fed govt wasnt doing it's job in protecting the borders. It obviously has become such a problem that Arizona had to take such drastic measures. Racial profiling is wrong, but unfortunately it works and is cost effective. I live on Long island and I could tell you exactly where to go and you would find 30 illegals any given day looking for work. This law enables police to go to these "hot spots" and ask for proper identification, something they are allowed to do by law. Next time a police officer asks you for id , tell him no and see what happens. you dont have the right to conceal your identity if law enforcement asks for it. This is not a new law really, just it is being enforced now.
I'll say it again, because apparently its not sinking in: if you want to stop illegal immigration, make it unprofitable! If the federal government were to pass extensive regulating legislation on employers of undocumented workers, so that its unprofitable to employ undocumented workers, conservatives would cry "socialism!" But when the federal government hasn't passed such regulation, they've "failed to act." Ridiculous!
The problem here is not the federal government's! Its a culture of impunity for big business! If Home Depot wants to employ 5,000 undocumented workers and thus provide an incentive for workers to migrate here, no one bats an eye as long as prices remain low. Its the same with construction, retail, agricultural, and service industries. Everyone wants to complain about the undocumented worker but no one wants to point out the real culprits: big businesses who like to get around labor laws!
So as I stated before: if you want to stop illegal immigration, make it unprofitable! Target the businesses, not the workers.
And as for whether or not racial profiling "works," that's really irrelevant. Its unconstitutional! It is unconstitutional to pass any law that discriminates based on race or ethnicity or has the effect of doing so! Read your constitutional case law!
In the mean time, I haven't heard one conservative response as to why conservatives hate the US tax code (as an excessive extension of federal power) but yet support expansion of federal immigration enforcement (as a just use of federal power). Racism anyone?
I dont need it to "sink in". Maybe if you didnt talk down to people like you are right and are trying to enlighten me and help me see the truth, people would be more receptive to the point you are trying to make.
you think the problem is the businesses that hire the illegals, I think it is too. I think the people who are skipping the legal process and coming here illegally are equally at fault, apparently you do not. Arizona doesnt want to harass people and spend money checking ID's all day but the problem has gotten to the point where they have to until the fed govt steps in and either enforces the border properly or comes down very hard on business owners who hire them. Arizona did this to force them to do something. This is the way those choose to do it. A cop, by law , is allowed to ask anyone for ID at any time.
I'll say it again, because apparently its not sinking in: if you want to stop illegal immigration, make it unprofitable! If the federal government were to pass extensive regulating legislation on employers of undocumented workers, so that its unprofitable to employ undocumented workers, conservatives would cry "socialism!" But when the federal government hasn't passed such regulation, they've "failed to act." Ridiculous!
The problem here is not the federal government's! Its a culture of impunity for big business! If Home Depot wants to employ 5,000 undocumented workers and thus provide an incentive for workers to migrate here, no one bats an eye as long as prices remain low. Its the same with construction, retail, agricultural, and service industries. Everyone wants to complain about the undocumented worker but no one wants to point out the real culprits: big businesses who like to get around labor laws!
So as I stated before: if you want to stop illegal immigration, make it unprofitable! Target the businesses, not the workers.
And as for whether or not racial profiling "works," that's really irrelevant. Its unconstitutional! It is unconstitutional to pass any law that discriminates based on race or ethnicity or has the effect of doing so! Read your constitutional case law!
In the mean time, I haven't heard one conservative response as to why conservatives hate the US tax code (as an excessive extension of federal power) but yet support expansion of federal immigration enforcement (as a just use of federal power). Racism anyone?
I dont need it to "sink in". Maybe if you didnt talk down to people like you are right and are trying to enlighten me and help me see the truth, people would be more receptive to the point you are trying to make.
you think the problem is the businesses that hire the illegals, I think it is too. I think the people who are skipping the legal process and coming here illegally are equally at fault, apparently you do not. Arizona doesnt want to harass people and spend money checking ID's all day but the problem has gotten to the point where they have to until the fed govt steps in and either enforces the border properly or comes down very hard on business owners who hire them. Arizona did this to force them to do something. This is the way those choose to do it. A cop, by law , is allowed to ask anyone for ID at any time.
I apologize if you felt I was talking down, it wasn't intended.
As for officers asking people for their IDs at any time for any reason, that is completely inaccurate. As a criminal prosecutor, I can tell you officers must have a reasonable suspicion (that means more than a hunch) that criminal activity is afoot. Officers cannot for no reason or any reason ask someone for their ID. This is American history 101. Cops can however ask you for your ID IF they believe you've committed a crime. That's what this law is all about. In AZ, it is now a crime to not have documents with you. Officers then, can ask anyone they believe to be here illegally for their ID. When that person doesn't produce one, they can be arrested/detained. Herein lies the problem: How does the officer decide who to ask? How do we make sure that officer is asking people for their IDs for non-discriminatory reasons? Or are we ok with a racist cop here and there?
Again, no disprespect intended. But I think there is a lot of misinformation floating around with this law.
And I'll leave it at that. Now I really do have to go to a baseball game!
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If they do, they should come to Tucson. We got it goin' on down here
spent a week there back in 2003 - around the Phoenix show. LOVED Tucson
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Arizona is an inherently racist state and should be treated as such with a financial boycott for as long as it takes
That's a helluva generalization and completely bigoted btw.
I moved to Phoenix from my beloved (but too damn cold) NYC in '87. 23 yrs of being a blue state gal in a flaming red state has had it's frustrations. I was here for the whole MLK Day debacle and now this. My husband is Hispanic, as is my step daughter, my son in law, my brother's wife, my mother's 2nd hubby, my niece's husband and many of our friends and extended family. They're all born in the USA btw, 3rd-4th generation at least. While I'm against people coming to this country illegally I'm also against legal citizens being persecuted because they happen to be brown.
Most LEOs are good people with a purpose to protect all, so though it's a major concern racial profiling is the least insidious part of this law. There's a provision that allows a citizen to sue the government if they witness a LEO not asking someone for their ID, so hate groups can hide behind that provision to promote their agenda while tying up the court systems. Oh, and the AZ Senate that designed the law conveniently made themselves exempt from those lawsuits, leaving the enforcement to the already budget strapped local, county and city governments.
I'm hoping that SB1070 will be tied up in courts until such time as we get to vote on it and hopefully it will be defeated. In the meantime some of us liberals will stay and fight. We have no choice, our house values are in the toilet and we can't afford to move. Need to find a warm weather location that PJ plays more often than they do in AZ.
Powers20 wrote:You are right. Arizona shouldnt be allowed to deal with an illegal immigration problem that is crippling the state.
It's not crippling Arizona or any other state. Illegal immigration is a net positive economically. Illegal immigrants purchase goods and services, just like legal immigrants and citizens. Nor is illegal immigration a danger to public safety. Illegal immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than citizens. (When contact with the police could lead to deportation, you tend to be circumspect about not violating the law.) Arizona's crime rate continues to decline, including in border counties, regardless of well-publicized examples to the contrary. For the record, illegal immigrants are not criminals simply by virtue of their presence. Being present in the U.S. illegally is a civil violation, not a criminal one. And it's the federal government's prerogative to enforce the immigration laws, not the state's-- and it's not like there isn't any enforcement. Hundreds of thousands of people are detained at the Arizona border every year by immigration authorities.
They should just deal with the people who enter the country illegally and not pay taxes.
Illegal immigrants pay taxes. They pay sales tax. They pay payroll tax. Many of them even pay income tax.
They are completely wrong for listening to the wishes of their citizens who have to deal with the thousands of illegals who are in their state.
A majority of citizens of Alabama and Mississippi had certain wishes with respect to the enforcement of the Thirteenth, Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments to protect the rights of blacks. I'm glad we didn't defer to their wishes. Equal protection is not contingent on majority rule.
The nerve of those people who actually go thru the legal process of entering the country legally, they should be ashamed of themselves.
You're being facetious, but no one has even remotely suggested or implied this sentiment.
I look at it this way. It's a good thing if people view America as a place of economic opportunity. Most of these people risked their lives to come here for that opportunity. Thousands have died trying. Most of those who tried did so because the situation in their home countries was absolutely desperate. They work hard at jobs that most Americans don't want. They make a positive contribution to American society, and they are being singled out and demonized in spite of it. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of illegal aliens in this country because they overstayed their visas, and there are countless others who sneaked in from Asian countries such as China and Korea, and even our neighbor to the north, Canada. None of these folks are the target of suspicion or hostility, even though they are every bit as illegal as the Mexicans whom the Arizona law clearly targets. Illegal immigration is a hot-button political issue, but it is not a serious problem.
Actually I work in the industry. I've been to both SCE and APS plants. Just because SCE is located in California, doens't mean the state of California owns anything. And SCE owns just a small share of Palo Verde. While Nuclear is my specialty, I am sure other types of plants send Electicity to California too. The left wing enviro nuts won't let any new plants be built in California.
Wow...I was not looking to start a whole political discussion just wondered what people thought about the likelihood of PJ playing or not playing Arizona while that law was still in place.
A couple of things I have noted......
1. who would have thought there were so many conservatives who were also PJ fans
2. who elected the thread police? were they empowered by the 10 club? by fellow fans? By the Arizona state govt? seriously...chill out and find something worthwhile to worry about
3. it'snice to see people having educated opinions
Love the fact that she is hiring another attorney to defend the law, instead of letting the Attorney General, whose constitutional duty is to defend the state in lawsuits.
Huge budget deficit, it's like and instead of eating the PB&J sandwich she brought for lunch, she's going out for prime rib.
On topic, what is a boycott meant to address? I seriously doubt anyone one the AZ legislature cares whether PJ doesn't play the state, or the majority of the people that have voted them into office. Now maybe if Johnny Mathis or Neil Diamond boycotted the state, then it might be a different story.
2. who elected the thread police? were they empowered by the 10 club? by fellow fans? By the Arizona state govt? seriously...chill out and find something worthwhile to worry about
It's not trying to be thread police - its more that this thread is such a BS attempt to try and bash Arizona by using a distant PJ reference.
Put this in AMT where people argue about politics until they go to sleep... this is for PJ music and related stuff.
I could think of 100 threads that have nothing to really do with PJ but you can use some reference to a lyric/song title/etc to make it seem like it. Doesn't mean it belongs here.
U2 opened up the joshua tree tour in the midst of the (completely racist) MLK debacle that was going on there at the time. When other acts refused to play AZ, Bono said " We choose to protest with our voices, not with our silence".
Pearl Jam should follow suit. I mean, can you imagine how f**cking cool the poster could be?!
I hope they return to AZ, I lived there for a while and I hope to return to the Southwest within the next few years. I hate the politics, But I love the land. So much untouched beauty!!!
I hope they return to AZ, I lived there for a while and I hope to return to the Southwest within the next few years. I hate the politics, But I love the land. So much untouched beauty!!!
Powers20 wrote:You are right. Arizona shouldnt be allowed to deal with an illegal immigration problem that is crippling the state.
It's not crippling Arizona or any other state. Illegal immigration is a net positive economically. Illegal immigrants purchase goods and services, just like legal immigrants and citizens. Nor is illegal immigration a danger to public safety. Illegal immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than citizens. (When contact with the police could lead to deportation, you tend to be circumspect about not violating the law.) Arizona's crime rate continues to decline, including in border counties, regardless of well-publicized examples to the contrary. For the record, illegal immigrants are not criminals simply by virtue of their presence. Being present in the U.S. illegally is a civil violation, not a criminal one. And it's the federal government's prerogative to enforce the immigration laws, not the state's-- and it's not like there isn't any enforcement. Hundreds of thousands of people are detained at the Arizona border every year by immigration authorities.
They should just deal with the people who enter the country illegally and not pay taxes.
Illegal immigrants pay taxes. They pay sales tax. They pay payroll tax. Many of them even pay income tax.
They are completely wrong for listening to the wishes of their citizens who have to deal with the thousands of illegals who are in their state.
A majority of citizens of Alabama and Mississippi had certain wishes with respect to the enforcement of the Thirteenth, Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments to protect the rights of blacks. I'm glad we didn't defer to their wishes. Equal protection is not contingent on majority rule.
The nerve of those people who actually go thru the legal process of entering the country legally, they should be ashamed of themselves.
You're being facetious, but no one has even remotely suggested or implied this sentiment.
I look at it this way. It's a good thing if people view America as a place of economic opportunity. Most of these people risked their lives to come here for that opportunity. Thousands have died trying. Most of those who tried did so because the situation in their home countries was absolutely desperate. They work hard at jobs that most Americans don't want. They make a positive contribution to American society, and they are being singled out and demonized in spite of it. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of illegal aliens in this country because they overstayed their visas, and there are countless others who sneaked in from Asian countries such as China and Korea, and even our neighbor to the north, Canada. None of these folks are the target of suspicion or hostility, even though they are every bit as illegal as the Mexicans whom the Arizona law clearly targets. Illegal immigration is a hot-button political issue, but it is not a serious problem.
Amen.
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Powers20 wrote:You are right. Arizona shouldnt be allowed to deal with an illegal immigration problem that is crippling the state.
It's not crippling Arizona or any other state. Illegal immigration is a net positive economically. Illegal immigrants purchase goods and services, just like legal immigrants and citizens. Nor is illegal immigration a danger to public safety. Illegal immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than citizens. (When contact with the police could lead to deportation, you tend to be circumspect about not violating the law.) Arizona's crime rate continues to decline, including in border counties, regardless of well-publicized examples to the contrary. For the record, illegal immigrants are not criminals simply by virtue of their presence. Being present in the U.S. illegally is a civil violation, not a criminal one. And it's the federal government's prerogative to enforce the immigration laws, not the state's-- and it's not like there isn't any enforcement. Hundreds of thousands of people are detained at the Arizona border every year by immigration authorities.
Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:
Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact; has committed a federal crime.
Check this out -- an opinion Poll on Arizona's new immigration law, and when I voted a few minutes ago, more than 96% said they SUPPORT it. I realize that an online poll isn't the most scientific thing in the world, but this is an overwhelming response on a very liberal news site!
I wonder if the administration will listen this time unlike with healthcare?
Check this out -- an opinion Poll on Arizona's new immigration law, and when I voted a few minutes ago, more than 96% said they SUPPORT it. I realize that an online poll isn't the most scientific thing in the world, but this is an overwhelming response on a very liberal news site!
I wonder if the administration will listen this time unlike with healthcare?
I think its doubtful that the White House is watching this anonymous online dichotomous poll. I shudder to think democracy and protest can be reduced to online clicking.
And let's not start the health care debate...I think there is anything but a consensus as to whether the health care bill was a good or bad thing...
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Powers20 wrote:You are right. Arizona shouldnt be allowed to deal with an illegal immigration problem that is crippling the state.
It's not crippling Arizona or any other state. Illegal immigration is a net positive economically. Illegal immigrants purchase goods and services, just like legal immigrants and citizens. Nor is illegal immigration a danger to public safety. Illegal immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than citizens. (When contact with the police could lead to deportation, you tend to be circumspect about not violating the law.) Arizona's crime rate continues to decline, including in border counties, regardless of well-publicized examples to the contrary. For the record, illegal immigrants are not criminals simply by virtue of their presence. Being present in the U.S. illegally is a civil violation, not a criminal one. And it's the federal government's prerogative to enforce the immigration laws, not the state's-- and it's not like there isn't any enforcement. Hundreds of thousands of people are detained at the Arizona border every year by immigration authorities.
Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:
Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact; has committed a federal crime.
How does pointing out a federal statute alleviate concerns about racial profiling?
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Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:
Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact; has committed a federal crime.
Improper entry is a federal crime. Illegal presence is a civil violation. As I said, illegal immigrants are not criminals simply by virtue of their presence. That is the common misapprehension. Many illegal immigrants enter the country legally, through work, study or tourist visas or otherwise, and then remain here illegally when their visa or other permit expires. Studies show that about 40 percent to 50 percent of illegal immigrants came here legally but overstayed. These individuals have not committed a crime. A person cannot be sent to prison for being here without documentation. The federal government can, however, impose civil penalties on the person, namely deportation, for this violation of the civil immigration laws.
Forwarded in email by my local indy record store here in Phoenix, Stinkweeds:
Hey everyone, I have never used this avenue to get the word out about a social/political issue before, but I wanted to share an Op-Ed piece written by Charlie Levy at Stateside Presents regarding all of the misinformed bands that are boycotting us here in Arizona due to SB1070.
An Open Letter to All Artists Boycotting Arizona:
As a political activist and 15-year independent concert promoter in Arizona, I feel a deep obligation to speak out about the real world effects of artists boycotting the state in protest of SB 1070, the recent anti-immigration bill passed by the legislature and signed into law by our (unelected) Governor. While I respect the intentions of the artists protesting what they find to be an unjust law, the practical effect of the boycott is resulting in exactly the opposite of their good-willed intentions.
By not performing in Arizona, artists are harming the very people and places that foster free speech and the open exchange of ideas that serve to counter the closed-mindedness recently displayed by the new law. The people who will feel the negative effects of the boycott the deepest are local concert venues, including non-profit art house theatres, independent promoters, motivated fans, and the hundreds of people employed in the local music business. If the boycott continues, it is all but guaranteed that some of these venues will be forced to close their doors.
Think of it this way: What if otherwise outspoken and inspirational activists like Martin Luther King, Jr. had turned their backs on the State of Alabama and its citizens because they didn’t agree with the discriminatory practices of its government during the critical years of the civil rights movement? What would have happened if they had chosen to boycott Alabama rather than speak out, organize, and effect change?
We are faced with a similar situation in Arizona today. The legislators currently in office don’t care if outspoken artists boycott the state. The people responsible for SB 1070 don't want you here. They don't want your voices heard. And as a result of the boycott, they are the only ones who benefit. In effect, the decision to boycott is playing right into their hands.
As Curtis McCrary, the general manager of the non-profit Rialto Theatre in Tucson recently stated, “The individuals and organizations behind this bill are...more than likely delighted about the prospect of politically vocal artists canceling shows – silencing themselves rather than using the platform their status as artists gives them to speak out against SB 1070.”
The truth is, a boycott is an easy gesture that doesn’t require much more than a statement and removing a date from your tour schedule. However, if you truly care about the effects of the controversial immigration law that was passed, this is an opportunity to use your unique position as an artist with the ability to reach thousands of people to inspire, educate, and motivate your fans to actively be a part of the change.
I have felt and seen the effects of what artists can do to change peoples' lives individually and as a whole. In this important midterm election year, it is imperative that the voters are organized and prepared to express their views about the recent law at the voting booths in November. Every concert venue and promoter in the state would be happy to help coordinate voter registration drives and set up information booths in connection with concerts. Many of us are already planning specific events, including rallies and benefit concerts, designed to educate and encourage local music lovers to get involved at this crucial time.
This open letter is a call out to all artists to come take a stand and perform in Arizona. We need you now more than ever.
If you are interested in exploring ways to help us, including voter outreach and organizing with local non-profits, or you just want more information, please feel free to contact me at <!-- e --><a href="mailto:charlie@statesidepresents.com">charlie@statesidepresents.com</a><!-- e -->.
this law was passed because the fed govt wasnt doing it's job in protecting the borders. It obviously has become such a problem that Arizona had to take such drastic measures. Racial profiling is wrong, but unfortunately it works and is cost effective. I live on Long island and I could tell you exactly where to go and you would find 30 illegals any given day looking for work. This law enables police to go to these "hot spots" and ask for proper identification, something they are allowed to do by law. Next time a police officer asks you for id , tell him no and see what happens. you dont have the right to conceal your identity if law enforcement asks for it. This is not a new law really, just it is being enforced now.
So basically you're ok with racial profiling? You're ok with making Hispanic's Second Class Citizens! Because if racial profiling is ok with you ,then that basically means you have no problem with Hispanic's becoming second class citizens!
Do you even understand this law? Do you understand the issues this law has and will create? Imagine citizens will not be calling 911 because they see a dark person they suspect is an illegal immigrant...Also if you are caught with an illegal immigrant you are guilty by association - So if you're a parent picking up your kids from school and one of your kids friends wants a ride, you better make sure that kid has papers because you could be taken to jail for transporting illegal immigrants-
This is not about checking ID's - in order to properly determine if someone is a legal citizen - the person must provide a birth certificate, a pass port, or other federally issued documents - I guess every Hispanic / brown persons should now have to carry these documents.
Not only is this a horrible law because of its racist overtones, but it's also going to cause a huge stress on law enforcement - now the state/cities will have to pay for all of these illegal immigrants to be held, when before the federal gov was paying for the ones caught --- It's going to stretch AZ's already horrible finances.....
Along with so many other issues...... It's going to divide the state like never before--- Do you really think Hispanic police officers are going to want to profile other Hispanic's? And guess what if they don't civilians, according to the law, have the right to file a law suite against police departments that are not enforcing the law!!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEMS THEY WILL BE FACING BECAUSE OF THAT???????
who would have thought there were so many conservatives who were also PJ fans
yeah, because as we all know, only liberals listen to music...right?
I don't think that's what's he saying. I think he's surprised because Pearl Jam has been open about its politics and, from the beginning, their songs have expressed ideas that are anathema to most conservatives, such as support for gun control ("Jeremy"; "Glorified G") and skepticism of law enforcement ("W.M.A.").
Having said that, it shouldn't be surprising because Pearl Jam draws its greatest influences from classic rock and the band's fans are disproportionately white and male, just like the audience for classic rock, and white males are disproportionately conservative.
(This doesn't mean that Pearl Jam doesn't have any female fans or any non-white fans. Of course, they do. I'm talking about percentages and proportionality.)
Comments
I'll say it again, because apparently its not sinking in: if you want to stop illegal immigration, make it unprofitable! If the federal government were to pass extensive regulating legislation on employers of undocumented workers, so that its unprofitable to employ undocumented workers, conservatives would cry "socialism!" But when the federal government hasn't passed such regulation, they've "failed to act." Ridiculous!
The problem here is not the federal government's! Its a culture of impunity for big business! If Home Depot wants to employ 5,000 undocumented workers and thus provide an incentive for workers to migrate here, no one bats an eye as long as prices remain low. Its the same with construction, retail, agricultural, and service industries. Everyone wants to complain about the undocumented worker but no one wants to point out the real culprits: big businesses who like to get around labor laws!
So as I stated before: if you want to stop illegal immigration, make it unprofitable! Target the businesses, not the workers.
And as for whether or not racial profiling "works," that's really irrelevant. Its unconstitutional! It is unconstitutional to pass any law that discriminates based on race or ethnicity or has the effect of doing so! Read your constitutional case law!
In the mean time, I haven't heard one conservative response as to why conservatives hate the US tax code (as an excessive extension of federal power) but yet support expansion of federal immigration enforcement (as a just use of federal power). Racism anyone?
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:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
Its not against the law for an officer to request ID; its against the law when he does so for a discriminatory reason, like race, ethnicity, national origin, gender etc. That's precisely the problem with this law; how do you tell if someone is here illegally? By how they look? By speaking spanish? By working construction? By where they live? Should officers in Arizona question every latino male working construction for his ID? What about African immigrants? What about Asian immigrants? Where would it stop? This law is what's referred to as a "slippery slope" in that it opens the door wide open for abuse and for expansive, unchecked racial profiling.
And I still haven't heard why Arizona shouldn't be targeting the businesses instead of the workers with this law. Wouldn't that go right to the source of illegal immigration?
Oy. I've got a Twins game to get to.
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I dont need it to "sink in". Maybe if you didnt talk down to people like you are right and are trying to enlighten me and help me see the truth, people would be more receptive to the point you are trying to make.
you think the problem is the businesses that hire the illegals, I think it is too. I think the people who are skipping the legal process and coming here illegally are equally at fault, apparently you do not. Arizona doesnt want to harass people and spend money checking ID's all day but the problem has gotten to the point where they have to until the fed govt steps in and either enforces the border properly or comes down very hard on business owners who hire them. Arizona did this to force them to do something. This is the way those choose to do it. A cop, by law , is allowed to ask anyone for ID at any time.
"We're running out of beer, too?" EV 6/19/08
I apologize if you felt I was talking down, it wasn't intended.
As for officers asking people for their IDs at any time for any reason, that is completely inaccurate. As a criminal prosecutor, I can tell you officers must have a reasonable suspicion (that means more than a hunch) that criminal activity is afoot. Officers cannot for no reason or any reason ask someone for their ID. This is American history 101. Cops can however ask you for your ID IF they believe you've committed a crime. That's what this law is all about. In AZ, it is now a crime to not have documents with you. Officers then, can ask anyone they believe to be here illegally for their ID. When that person doesn't produce one, they can be arrested/detained. Herein lies the problem: How does the officer decide who to ask? How do we make sure that officer is asking people for their IDs for non-discriminatory reasons? Or are we ok with a racist cop here and there?
Again, no disprespect intended.
And I'll leave it at that. Now I really do have to go to a baseball game!
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1996: Ft Lauderdale
1998: Birmingham
2000: Charlotte, Tampa
2003: Tampa, Atlanta, Phoenix
2004: Kissimmee
2008: West Palm Beach, Bonnaroo, Columbia
2010: MSG2
2012: Music Midtown
2014: Memphis
2018: Wrigley 1, Fenway 1
2022: Nashville
2023: Ft. Worth II
2024: Baltimore
2025: Hollywood II
I moved to Phoenix from my beloved (but too damn cold) NYC in '87. 23 yrs of being a blue state gal in a flaming red state has had it's frustrations. I was here for the whole MLK Day debacle and now this. My husband is Hispanic, as is my step daughter, my son in law, my brother's wife, my mother's 2nd hubby, my niece's husband and many of our friends and extended family. They're all born in the USA btw, 3rd-4th generation at least. While I'm against people coming to this country illegally I'm also against legal citizens being persecuted because they happen to be brown.
Most LEOs are good people with a purpose to protect all, so though it's a major concern racial profiling is the least insidious part of this law. There's a provision that allows a citizen to sue the government if they witness a LEO not asking someone for their ID, so hate groups can hide behind that provision to promote their agenda while tying up the court systems. Oh, and the AZ Senate that designed the law conveniently made themselves exempt from those lawsuits, leaving the enforcement to the already budget strapped local, county and city governments.
It all comes down to fear and ignorance. As does much that is wrong in the world. Here's some reading material from inside this ~"inherently racist state"~. Some of us fight the battle from within the belly of the beast.
http://www.phoenixmag.com/lifestyle/201004/a-new-song/
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2010-06-03/news/badlands-for-those-living-in-the-arizona-county-that-s-ground-zero-for-drug-and-human-trafficking-along-the-border-the-illegal-immigration-crisis-is-personal/
A few weeks ago there was a threat to cut SoCal off, but then someone noted that California is a partial owner of the Palo Verde Nuclear power plant and that shut those factions up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palo_Verde_Nuclear_Generating_Station
I'm hoping that SB1070 will be tied up in courts until such time as we get to vote on it and hopefully it will be defeated. In the meantime some of us liberals will stay and fight. We have no choice, our house values are in the toilet and we can't afford to move. Need to find a warm weather location that PJ plays more often than they do in AZ.
10c # = 70xxx
It's not crippling Arizona or any other state. Illegal immigration is a net positive economically. Illegal immigrants purchase goods and services, just like legal immigrants and citizens. Nor is illegal immigration a danger to public safety. Illegal immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than citizens. (When contact with the police could lead to deportation, you tend to be circumspect about not violating the law.) Arizona's crime rate continues to decline, including in border counties, regardless of well-publicized examples to the contrary. For the record, illegal immigrants are not criminals simply by virtue of their presence. Being present in the U.S. illegally is a civil violation, not a criminal one. And it's the federal government's prerogative to enforce the immigration laws, not the state's-- and it's not like there isn't any enforcement. Hundreds of thousands of people are detained at the Arizona border every year by immigration authorities.
They should just deal with the people who enter the country illegally and not pay taxes.
Illegal immigrants pay taxes. They pay sales tax. They pay payroll tax. Many of them even pay income tax.
They are completely wrong for listening to the wishes of their citizens who have to deal with the thousands of illegals who are in their state.
A majority of citizens of Alabama and Mississippi had certain wishes with respect to the enforcement of the Thirteenth, Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments to protect the rights of blacks. I'm glad we didn't defer to their wishes. Equal protection is not contingent on majority rule.
The nerve of those people who actually go thru the legal process of entering the country legally, they should be ashamed of themselves.
You're being facetious, but no one has even remotely suggested or implied this sentiment.
I look at it this way. It's a good thing if people view America as a place of economic opportunity. Most of these people risked their lives to come here for that opportunity. Thousands have died trying. Most of those who tried did so because the situation in their home countries was absolutely desperate. They work hard at jobs that most Americans don't want. They make a positive contribution to American society, and they are being singled out and demonized in spite of it. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of illegal aliens in this country because they overstayed their visas, and there are countless others who sneaked in from Asian countries such as China and Korea, and even our neighbor to the north, Canada. None of these folks are the target of suspicion or hostility, even though they are every bit as illegal as the Mexicans whom the Arizona law clearly targets. Illegal immigration is a hot-button political issue, but it is not a serious problem.
Actually I work in the industry. I've been to both SCE and APS plants. Just because SCE is located in California, doens't mean the state of California owns anything. And SCE owns just a small share of Palo Verde. While Nuclear is my specialty, I am sure other types of plants send Electicity to California too. The left wing enviro nuts won't let any new plants be built in California.
A couple of things I have noted......
1. who would have thought there were so many conservatives who were also PJ fans
2. who elected the thread police? were they empowered by the 10 club? by fellow fans? By the Arizona state govt? seriously...chill out and find something worthwhile to worry about
3. it'snice to see people having educated opinions
http://www.truthout.org/breaking-up-with-arizona60095
Love the fact that she is hiring another attorney to defend the law, instead of letting the Attorney General, whose constitutional duty is to defend the state in lawsuits.
Huge budget deficit, it's like and instead of eating the PB&J sandwich she brought for lunch, she's going out for prime rib.
On topic, what is a boycott meant to address? I seriously doubt anyone one the AZ legislature cares whether PJ doesn't play the state, or the majority of the people that have voted them into office. Now maybe if Johnny Mathis or Neil Diamond boycotted the state, then it might be a different story.
Put this in AMT where people argue about politics until they go to sleep... this is for PJ music and related stuff.
I could think of 100 threads that have nothing to really do with PJ but you can use some reference to a lyric/song title/etc to make it seem like it. Doesn't mean it belongs here.
Pearl Jam should follow suit. I mean, can you imagine how f**cking cool the poster could be?!
10c # = 70xxx
Amen.
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Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:
Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact; has committed a federal crime.
I wonder if the administration will listen this time unlike with healthcare?
I think its doubtful that the White House is watching this anonymous online dichotomous poll. I shudder to think democracy and protest can be reduced to online clicking.
And let's not start the health care debate...I think there is anything but a consensus as to whether the health care bill was a good or bad thing...
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How does pointing out a federal statute alleviate concerns about racial profiling?
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Improper entry is a federal crime. Illegal presence is a civil violation. As I said, illegal immigrants are not criminals simply by virtue of their presence. That is the common misapprehension. Many illegal immigrants enter the country legally, through work, study or tourist visas or otherwise, and then remain here illegally when their visa or other permit expires. Studies show that about 40 percent to 50 percent of illegal immigrants came here legally but overstayed. These individuals have not committed a crime. A person cannot be sent to prison for being here without documentation. The federal government can, however, impose civil penalties on the person, namely deportation, for this violation of the civil immigration laws.
10c # = 70xxx
And Ed, if you read this...this will be a perfect opportunity for you to go on some long speech about the law between songs! It'll be great!
yeah, because as we all know, only liberals listen to music...right?
So basically you're ok with racial profiling? You're ok with making Hispanic's Second Class Citizens! Because if racial profiling is ok with you ,then that basically means you have no problem with Hispanic's becoming second class citizens!
Do you even understand this law? Do you understand the issues this law has and will create? Imagine citizens will not be calling 911 because they see a dark person they suspect is an illegal immigrant...Also if you are caught with an illegal immigrant you are guilty by association - So if you're a parent picking up your kids from school and one of your kids friends wants a ride, you better make sure that kid has papers because you could be taken to jail for transporting illegal immigrants-
This is not about checking ID's - in order to properly determine if someone is a legal citizen - the person must provide a birth certificate, a pass port, or other federally issued documents - I guess every Hispanic / brown persons should now have to carry these documents.
Not only is this a horrible law because of its racist overtones, but it's also going to cause a huge stress on law enforcement - now the state/cities will have to pay for all of these illegal immigrants to be held, when before the federal gov was paying for the ones caught --- It's going to stretch AZ's already horrible finances.....
Along with so many other issues...... It's going to divide the state like never before--- Do you really think Hispanic police officers are going to want to profile other Hispanic's? And guess what if they don't civilians, according to the law, have the right to file a law suite against police departments that are not enforcing the law!!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEMS THEY WILL BE FACING BECAUSE OF THAT???????
I don't think that's what's he saying. I think he's surprised because Pearl Jam has been open about its politics and, from the beginning, their songs have expressed ideas that are anathema to most conservatives, such as support for gun control ("Jeremy"; "Glorified G") and skepticism of law enforcement ("W.M.A.").
Having said that, it shouldn't be surprising because Pearl Jam draws its greatest influences from classic rock and the band's fans are disproportionately white and male, just like the audience for classic rock, and white males are disproportionately conservative.
(This doesn't mean that Pearl Jam doesn't have any female fans or any non-white fans. Of course, they do. I'm talking about percentages and proportionality.)