Will PJ play Arizona in the current political climate?

MG79478 wrote:

I agree! How dare Arizona enforce the laws of this country, and try to protect legal citizens of this country from illegal immigrants. Kudos to the LA Mayor for putting illegal immigrants (who by definition are broke the law by coming here) ahead of legal Arizona Citizens. In fact, we should give anyone who walks in to this country free health care. I know it says somewhere towards the back of the constitution that it is a right for some people to get free healthcare at the expense of others.

It will be awesome when LA boycotts all things made in Arizona, including electricity. I hope LA likes rolling blackouts!

And water. About 30% of their water comes from AZ.

vant0037 wrote:

I agree! How dare Arizona enforce the laws of this country, and try to protect legal citizens of this country from illegal immigrants. Kudos to the LA Mayor for putting illegal immigrants (who by definition are broke the law by coming here) ahead of legal Arizona Citizens. In fact, we should give anyone who walks in to this country free health care. I know it says somewhere towards the back of the constitution that it is a right for some people to get free healthcare at the expense of others.

You couldn't be missing the point more. What role does AZ have in enforcing federal laws? Further, its not about whether or not AZ should be able to address the issues or problems it faces, its about how it should be able to go about addressing those issues. The truly scary implications of this law -- for both liberals and conservatives -- is enough to warrant its repeal or rejection.

From the liberal side of things: do you really believe that allowing individual officers to decide who they should demand immigration papers from will not lead to rampant racial profiling?

From the conservative side of things: aside from the US tax code, federal immigration regulations are the most broad, complex and most invasive examples of state power. How does this law not offend every good conservative's notion of small/limited government and personal responsibility? In other words, why is strict immigration regulation OK, but the US tax code (according to the TEA party) not OK? Since when do conservatives wish to take on a Constitutionally-mandated federal power?

The one part of the law that might make sense is, ironically, the regulations that address employers of undocumented workers. Anyone in AZ who believes that illegal immigration is "crippling the state" needs to stop shopping at retailers that employ undocumented workers, needs to stop buying from major service industry chains (i.e. restaurants, hotels, product retailers etc.). This is America; if its profitable to grind kittens into a soft drink, there is a company that will do it. If its profitable to employ undocumented workers (which, by the way, it is) because you can pay sh*t wages, give no benefits and avoid taxes on your workers, then there are companies that will do it.

The way to stop illegal immigration? Make it unprofitable. But this law simply makes racial profiling OK while essentially volunteering Arizona to do the federal government's job.

this law was passed because the fed govt wasnt doing it's job in protecting the borders. It obviously has become such a problem that Arizona had to take such drastic measures. Racial profiling is wrong, but unfortunately it works and is cost effective. I live on Long island and I could tell you exactly where to go and you would find 30 illegals any given day looking for work. This law enables police to go to these "hot spots" and ask for proper identification, something they are allowed to do by law. Next time a police officer asks you for id , tell him no and see what happens. you dont have the right to conceal your identity if law enforcement asks for it. This is not a new law really, just it is being enforced now.

drsluggo wrote:

And whatever you think I find it so funny how the same people that hate when we tell other countries what to do are fine telling Arizona what they should be doing with the problems they face that almost no other states deal with in the same manner.

great point !
it would be like kansas telling NY how to run it's subway system.

drsluggo wrote:

And whatever you think I find it so funny how the same people that hate when we tell other countries what to do are fine telling Arizona what they should be doing with the problems they face that almost no other states deal with in the same manner.

Uh, not quite. Arizona, unlike foreign countries, belong to a constitutional system as part of the United States. As such, Arizona is obligated to pass constitutional laws. So yeah...its really not the same thing.

On an unrelated note, I hope your name refers to Sean "Slug" Daley of Atmosphere! My hometown!

vant0037 wrote:

Uh, not quite. Arizona, unlike foreign countries, belong to a constitutional system as part of the United States. As such, Arizona is obligated to pass constitutional laws. So yeah...its really not the same thing.

On an unrelated note, I hope your name refers to Sean "Slug" Daley of Atmosphere! My hometown!

It's the same idea... just technically different. I guess what I was trying to say is that all of the people that whine about how we try to influence other countries (in addition to Iraq/Afghanistan) are now the first ones to say we need to override Arizona. It's just funny to me - proves everyone is indeed a hypocrite.

But more importantly, this thread was started in the PJ MUSIC forum with the 100% sole intention of starting a political debate. the PJ part of it is completely useless to this thread... its all hypothetical and this thread was posted to try and make a point about Arizona.

It doesn't belong here and its annoying that people post this off-topic crap and try to use some hypothetical or longshot PJ connection to make it seem like there's a real point to it being here.

Uh yeah, sorry dude, its different. Arizona passing a borderline racist law that forces state officers to perform federal tasks and the rest of the country decrying it is pretty different that someone in NY protesting a benign topic like Kansas' subway system or lack thereof.

4Powers20 wrote:

exactly, and our country has a process for people who want to come and live here. Arizona's proximity to the border creates a huge problem for them. Since the fed govt cant/wont address the issue of border control, Arizona is being forced to take a stand on it's own , or until the fed govt can do it's job.

and again, since when is it against the law for a police officer to ask for ID ?

Its not against the law for an officer to request ID; its against the law when he does so for a discriminatory reason, like race, ethnicity, national origin, gender etc. That's precisely the problem with this law; how do you tell if someone is here illegally? By how they look? By speaking spanish? By working construction? By where they live? Should officers in Arizona question every latino male working construction for his ID? What about African immigrants? What about Asian immigrants? Where would it stop? This law is what's referred to as a "slippery slope" in that it opens the door wide open for abuse and for expansive, unchecked racial profiling.

And I still haven't heard why Arizona shouldn't be targeting the businesses instead of the workers with this law. Wouldn't that go right to the source of illegal immigration?

Oy. I've got a Twins game to get to.

quote="4Powers20"]

vant0037 wrote:

I'll say it again, because apparently its not sinking in: if you want to stop illegal immigration, make it unprofitable! If the federal government were to pass extensive regulating legislation on employers of undocumented workers, so that its unprofitable to employ undocumented workers, conservatives would cry "socialism!" But when the federal government hasn't passed such regulation, they've "failed to act." Ridiculous!

The problem here is not the federal government's! Its a culture of impunity for big business! If Home Depot wants to employ 5,000 undocumented workers and thus provide an incentive for workers to migrate here, no one bats an eye as long as prices remain low. Its the same with construction, retail, agricultural, and service industries. Everyone wants to complain about the undocumented worker but no one wants to point out the real culprits: big businesses who like to get around labor laws!

So as I stated before: if you want to stop illegal immigration, make it unprofitable! Target the businesses, not the workers.

And as for whether or not racial profiling "works," that's really irrelevant. Its unconstitutional! It is unconstitutional to pass any law that discriminates based on race or ethnicity or has the effect of doing so! Read your constitutional case law!

In the mean time, I haven't heard one conservative response as to why conservatives hate the US tax code (as an excessive extension of federal power) but yet support expansion of federal immigration enforcement (as a just use of federal power). Racism anyone?

I dont need it to "sink in". Maybe if you didnt talk down to people like you are right and are trying to enlighten me and help me see the truth, people would be more receptive to the point you are trying to make.

you think the problem is the businesses that hire the illegals, I think it is too. I think the people who are skipping the legal process and coming here illegally are equally at fault, apparently you do not. Arizona doesnt want to harass people and spend money checking ID's all day but the problem has gotten to the point where they have to until the fed govt steps in and either enforces the border properly or comes down very hard on business owners who hire them. Arizona did this to force them to do something. This is the way those choose to do it. A cop, by law , is allowed to ask anyone for ID at any time.

I apologize if you felt I was talking down, it wasn't intended.

As for officers asking people for their IDs at any time for any reason, that is completely inaccurate. As a criminal prosecutor, I can tell you officers must have a reasonable suspicion (that means more than a hunch) that criminal activity is afoot. Officers cannot for no reason or any reason ask someone for their ID. This is American history 101. Cops can however ask you for your ID IF they believe you've committed a crime. That's what this law is all about. In AZ, it is now a crime to not have documents with you. Officers then, can ask anyone they believe to be here illegally for their ID. When that person doesn't produce one, they can be arrested/detained. Herein lies the problem: How does the officer decide who to ask? How do we make sure that officer is asking people for their IDs for non-discriminatory reasons? Or are we ok with a racist cop here and there?

Again, no disprespect intended. But I think there is a lot of misinformation floating around with this law.

And I'll leave it at that. Now I really do have to go to a baseball game!

Bentleyspop wrote:

Arizona is an inherently racist state and should be treated as such with a financial boycott for as long as it takes

That's a helluva generalization and completely bigoted btw.
I moved to Phoenix from my beloved (but too damn cold) NYC in '87. 23 yrs of being a blue state gal in a flaming red state has had it's frustrations. I was here for the whole MLK Day debacle and now this. My husband is Hispanic, as is my step daughter, my son in law, my brother's wife, my mother's 2nd hubby, my niece's husband and many of our friends and extended family. They're all born in the USA btw, 3rd-4th generation at least. While I'm against people coming to this country illegally I'm also against legal citizens being persecuted because they happen to be brown.

Most LEOs are good people with a purpose to protect all, so though it's a major concern racial profiling is the least insidious part of this law. There's a provision that allows a citizen to sue the government if they witness a LEO not asking someone for their ID, so hate groups can hide behind that provision to promote their agenda while tying up the court systems. Oh, and the AZ Senate that designed the law conveniently made themselves exempt from those lawsuits, leaving the enforcement to the already budget strapped local, county and city governments.

It all comes down to fear and ignorance. As does much that is wrong in the world. Here's some reading material from inside this ~"inherently racist state"~. Some of us fight the battle from within the belly of the beast.
http://www.phoenixmag.com/lifestyle/201004/a-new-song/
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2010-06-03/news/badlands-for-those-living-in-the-arizona-county-that-s-ground-zero-for-drug-and-human-trafficking-along-the-border-the-illegal-immigration-crisis-is-personal/

mca47 wrote:

MG79478 wrote:

It will be awesome when LA boycotts all things made in Arizona, including electricity. I hope LA likes rolling blackouts!

And water. About 30% of their water comes from AZ.

A few weeks ago there was a threat to cut SoCal off, but then someone noted that California is a partial owner of the Palo Verde Nuclear power plant and that shut those factions up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palo_Verde_Nuclear_Generating_Station

I'm hoping that SB1070 will be tied up in courts until such time as we get to vote on it and hopefully it will be defeated. In the meantime some of us liberals will stay and fight. We have no choice, our house values are in the toilet and we can't afford to move. Need to find a warm weather location that PJ plays more often than they do in AZ.

kj1nyr wrote:

mca47 wrote:

MG79478 wrote:

It will be awesome when LA boycotts all things made in Arizona, including electricity. I hope LA likes rolling blackouts!

And water. About 30% of their water comes from AZ.

A few weeks ago there was a threat to cut SoCal off, but then someone noted that California is a partial owner of the Palo Verde Nuclear power plant and that shut those factions up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palo_Verde_Nuclear_Generating_Station

Actually I work in the industry. I've been to both SCE and APS plants. Just because SCE is located in California, doens't mean the state of California owns anything. And SCE owns just a small share of Palo Verde. While Nuclear is my specialty, I am sure other types of plants send Electicity to California too. The left wing enviro nuts won't let any new plants be built in California.