nirvana's nevermind overrated??
jr19
Posts: 338
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jr19
Posts: 338
jr19
Posts: 338
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(Jeff Tweedy, Sydney 2007)
“Put yer good money on the sunrise”
(Tim Rogers)
Had you written this 15 years ago you'd have been skinned alive and forced to eat yourself, but you are right - Nirvana were a good rock band, no more no less. As someone who lived and breathed grunge in those halcyon days, it always puzzled me that Pearl Jam were constantly on the receiving end of this sort of criticism (especially in the NME) at the time, where as Nirvana were always given a free pass. I can't say I've listened to Nevermind all the way through for years, where as I still regularly dig out "Ten" and other grunge era classics like "Siamese Dream" - funny how things works out really.
I agree! Nevermind was always kinda bland to me....and time has not been kind to it imo.
On this board, many people whether they admit it or not, loathe nirvana and kurt not because they dislike the music, but rather because, no matter how you cut it, nirvana will always be the 1 band and kurt the one guy, remembered from the early 90's. Nirvana will always be remembered as being that revolutionary band that changed everything. And while Pearl Jam deserves credit, I highly doubt they will ever receive said credit.
We can talk all we want about overrated or underrated, but the fact remains, Nevermind changed things. Its hard to describe how it felt as a 7 year old kid, hearing those songs for the first time. Seeing Kurt with the hair in his face for the Teen Spirit video, and just the overall energy of the music. I was 7, 8, 9, and obviously my knowledge of musical history, or any history for that matter, was obviously limited. But even then, I knew, this band was doing something special.
I think these days, the idea of teen angst is mocked. The reviews for Where the Wild Things continually suggested Max was some spoiled brat. But I think contained in Nevermind, was some sort of remedy and elixir, that I dont know, and no one does really know, the ingrediants of.
There was something almost primal, and basic about the music. Kurt wasnt doing metaphors and intense wordplay. He wasnt dylan. But when he screamed himself hoarse in Stay Away, or when he refered to "something in the way" in the song of the same name, when he repeated over and over again the line "a denial", it was clear this wasnt your average dumbed down for the masses music.
Its clear to me this album, and many others like it Ten, Siamese Dream, helped alot of kids put into words the stuff they were feeling. Any album that does something like that, isnt overrated, its underrated.
Seems to me, all great art comes from pain and suffering. And it also seems fair to say, that Nevermind, was born out of pain and suffering.
Nevermind, will remain, one of my favorite albums of all time, until I die for these reasons.
Nirvana given a free pass? Were you alive during the early 90's? The music was continually critiqued, and a huge part of the adult population just didnt get it. Rolling stone or Spin or whoever was giving them good reviews, was probably doing so because it became clear the youth were embracing this music. 40 year olds and 50 year olds were having this music. It was just noise to them. And they certainly didnt understand why Nirvana and Kurt meant so much to Gen X.
Secondly, press about Nirvana and Kurt was continually harping on his drug use, and near the end, Courtney and her drug use. Press is press, but I dont think talking about and speculating if Courtney used heroin while pregnant with Frances Bean, was fair, or was a free pass that you seem to hallucinate about.
It wasnt the press or record labels who recognized Kurt and Nirvana as doing something special and voicing the feelings of a generation, that was rather, the average fan, and the movement as a whole/
Nirvana never usually makes my rotation, but if I had to listen to an album I think I'd choose Bleach.
6/12/08 - Tampa, FL
8/23/09 - Chicago, IL
9/28/09 - Salt Lake City, UT (11 years too long!!!)
9/03/11 - East Troy, WI - PJ20 - Night 1
9/04/11 - East Troy, WI - PJ20 - Night 2
no way is nevermind more dated than Ten.
The best thing they put out was that cover of "Jesus Don't Want Me For A Sunbeam" on Unplugged.
That is a scientific fact!
yes that one too. oh oh oh. forgot. i probably would choose the unplugged album over all of them
I’m older than you….and you’re not Gen X. The fact that you even mention that brutal term discredits your opinion :P
You say in your next post that you were 7 at the time, and you’re trying to tell me what the atmosphere surrounding Nirvana in the early 90’s was like?
The fact that the older population (40/50 yr olds) didn’t ‘get it’ doesn’t mean much – they rarely ‘get’ the next big thing…if they did, it likely wouldn’t be the next big thing…maybe Rolling Stone and Spin reviewed them favourably (did they?) to sell magazines…what does that prove? That the 90’s world needed a bastion of good taste, a straight-shooting critical juggernaut like pitchfork?
I admit that yes, I’m agreeing with the comparison of Nirvana’s press treatment to the treatment of PJ back in the day. PJ were always referred to as derivative classic rock, while Nirvana were given some kind of street punk cred that they never deserved. The press portrayed Kurt as an anti-rock god. EV was portrayed as a whiny bitch that didn’t appreciate what he had. Nirvana was a good rock band. I like their music, and love a couple of their albums.
Harping on drug use? So what? Sells magazines….have you read the ‘smoking during pregnancy’ thread on AET? People love to protect other peoples’ kids from their parents, just how it goes. Sure, KC endured the paparazzi BS as much as anyone…in that respect, you’re right, no free pass.
As for the spokesmodel of the generation thing…and ‘the movement’….man, YOU are hallucinating with the delusions of grandeur you’re projecting onto him.
I was about that age first time I saw Tommy Lee punch a woman in the face in the Too Young To Fall In Love video. I thought that was pretty special. Doesn’t mean I was right…. Forgive me for not being swayed as you wax nostalgic over your childhood
And I thought MY posts were self-indulgent :P
The idea of teen angst was mocked in the 90’s too. It was a term pretty much invented to sell grunge music to kids. Looks like it worked! I agree that Nirvana was an above average, non-generic band. Great Art comes from all emotions. It IS emotion, transformed into something tangible, really…
You overrate the role of angst in art, so it’s not surprising that you overrate Nevermind
That was the only thing I never understood. While Kurt was busy making music videos and attending any mtv event he got invited to, PJ was boycotting ticketmaster and refusing to do videos or interviews. meanwhile, everyone went along with kurt calling them cock rock sell outs. you can't tell me nirvana didn't get more slack than pj did!
not that i carry a grudge about it, but it's interesting. i remember one article that pointed out that until kurt killed himself, PJ was the bigger band. they had more mass appeal, better performing singles, better selling follow up albums, more highly anticipated concerts... they were huge. then kurt blew his head off and became a deity and his word was gospel... suddenly vedder wasn't a spokesman for the generation, he was a whiny, mopey hermit that was always a poser riding kurt's coattails. revisionist history at its finest...
Was Burguny for halloween. God I love that movie.
6/12/08 - Tampa, FL
8/23/09 - Chicago, IL
9/28/09 - Salt Lake City, UT (11 years too long!!!)
9/03/11 - East Troy, WI - PJ20 - Night 1
9/04/11 - East Troy, WI - PJ20 - Night 2
Are you KIDDING? Ten sounds WAY more dated than Nevermind does. Nevermind is a brilliantly produced album, Ten is not, hence the "Redux" version.
But the content of Ten is much more flavorful.
6/12/08 - Tampa, FL
8/23/09 - Chicago, IL
9/28/09 - Salt Lake City, UT (11 years too long!!!)
9/03/11 - East Troy, WI - PJ20 - Night 1
9/04/11 - East Troy, WI - PJ20 - Night 2
Couple things come to mind. One, are you suggesting you know what I felt when I was 7 8 or 9? Cause it sure as hell sounds like it.
And Generation X, I have seen the generation timeline for Gen X stretch out to 1984, the year I was born. If people ask me what generation I am from, I say X, and I identify with the traits. Just as, if you were a certain age, the first question you might ask someone you meet if say you are in your 50's or 60's, is "what did you do during vietnam". I think obviously not all, but a good deal of our parents generation, fit a mold. They grew up middle class and started questioning things, and became hippies. Sure, not everyone did that, but its an accurate thing to say that the Baby Boomers acted and behaved a certain way. I also think its accurate to describe our generation in different terms. We are children of the baby boomers, of hippies, and we have a certain view of the world.
Secondly, are you really telling me, that kids dont know the meaning and cant sense an emotional intensity? You obviously dont know your civil rights history, because those small kids, 5 6 7 year olds, that were marching , and protesting with their parents, werent oblivious. They knew exactly what was going on, the impact of their marching and protesting, and their place in history, and the importance of it. So to tell me, that I personally couldnt comprehend the importance of Nevermind because I was too young, is insane on multiple levels. 1 being, you werent and arent me. And 2 that kids can feel emotions just as much as adults can.
I, unlike you apparently, can remember exactly what I felt like, the emotions I felt, the feelings, the atmosphere, of the early 1990's.
I am certainly not a Nirvana-hater, far from it, I just feel that Nevermind is by far their weakest album in terms of songwriting. It will always be remembered as their breakthrough album (and the album that took grunge into the mainstream) and it will always have its own place in history but personally I would much prefer to listen to Bleach or In Utero because I think the songs are better. It's an honest opinion.
(Jeff Tweedy, Sydney 2007)
“Put yer good money on the sunrise”
(Tim Rogers)
Its not naive of me to point out, that as in a lot of music, I would bet Nevermind helped alot of young adults and adults out, dealing with their emotions and their feelings. I think it was a lifeline and lifejacket for some even. For me, thats something that is huge, its so huge its immeasurable. These songs exposed the pain and anger of a 20 something named kurt. What surprised Kurt, and in many ways what led to his downfall, was the fact that this guy tapped into the emotions of an entire generation. I dont think thats hyperbole. Its not hype or overrating either. Its simple facts.
For someone, anyone, a kid perhaps who felt alienated from others, who was abused, who felt lost and confused, Nevermind was most likely a raft on which to escape.
Secondly the author refuses to talk about how music can be profound, and still be a made up story. Whether Kurt did live under a bridge, or whether he made it up is irrelevant. In fact if its made up, it only proves his genius more. To me, as I pointed out before, the song was never about being under a bridge, it was "something in the way", that he kept refering to over and over again that caught my ear and attention. Seems to me, Kurt was talking about more than a time in his life when he may have lived under a bridge.
The author also seems to pit the hair metal and commercial rock of that time, with Nirvana and Kurt. I am sorry but the music that bands like Poison and Ratt and Motley Crue, were making and the music of Nirvana was and remains vastly different. And if the author or anyone else refuses to see it, they are deaf or dumb.
To me, music thats honest, true, and righteous, always springs to the fore. The shills, the people out for money and fame and cars, those are a dime a dozen, and you can spot them a mile away. And you may have to sift through acres and acres of crap to get to that gem, but when you find it, its indescribable.
Seattle Key Arena 9-21-2009
Seattle Key Arena 9-22-2009
not a chance in hell. i've worked extensively with 5-7 year olds and they would not have understood any of that. they do not know exactly what is going on.
as to the first paragraph... no. i'd never ask anyone that question, my parents were not hippies, and i have never considered myself part of gen x or understood what the hell gen x is supposed to mean anyway, and i was born in 82.
Well I guess those kids in the civil rights movement who were very aware of the importance of what they were doing, were lying. And any other 5-7 year old who feels things strongly, is either mistaken, or lying. Or both. Yeah, thanks for straightening me out there. its only adults who feel things strongly, and understand things. Completely slipped my mind, but now I remember
I grew up in a home where classic rock ruled the airwaves. Fortunately for me, my parents were influenced by their older siblings, rather than the crappy music being put out as popular during much of the mid-late 70s. I remember both Ten and Nevermind very well (growing up near Seattle certainly didn't help dilute that exposure, haha). I can tell you that while I really liked both (my favorite band at the time was Soundgarden, actually...first concert I went to was in Seattle to see them and The Screaming Trees when I was 13) and collected and listened to their albums, I really don't think I REALLY "got it" until right around Yield when I was 17. Not saying that "musicismylife78" didn't get it at 7, but it is my experience that most any 7 year old wouldn't really understand what's going on, regardless of whether or not they enjoyed the music, myself included.
...and for the record, I do not consider myself to be a part of "Generation X" and am pretty positive that "gen-x" refers to people born from the 60s to the late 70s or so with "gen-y" going from the late 70s to the early 90s and "gen-z" or the "digital natives" going from the early-mid 90s to today...
I love PJ and Soundgarden with a passion, but I'll always stand up for Nirvana and Cobain in the face of delusional fanboy bandwagon bashing.
Fuck corporate rock!
Fuck bullies!
I myself do not listen to the album very often anymore but when I do get an itch to hear it, I usually spin it for a good week. I especially felt this way after watching Nirvana's Classic Album documentary. After hearing from Butch, Krist and Dave about how some of the songs were recorded I was able to approach the album with new, fresh ears.
Where I disagree with the writer is the area of influence. He says in the article, None of which detracts, argue the Cobainologists, from the fact that 'Nevermind' was profoundly influential, that it 'changed rock overnight'. Really? Where do you hear its influence now, exactly? Sure, there are plenty of woeful copyists – Bush, Nickelback, Seether, Puddle Of Mudd. I would have to say the number of bands influenced by their sound goes beyond the bands he has mentioned. He neglects the fact that a lot of those metal bands Nirvana dethroned changed their sounds overnight in an attempt to stay relevant to what was happening. There were also a plethora of new bands during that era that jumped on the quiet, loud, quiet, loud sound.
Also, he mentions Motley Crew, Def Leppard, etc playing shows. Yeah, they're playing shows, but people going to those shows aren't going for new material. They're usually full of people on the cusp of hitting middle age life and just want to hear the old hits to feel young again.
This is one of the best descriptions i've heard
You need to study some human psychology. Not lying, but definitely mistaken. I'm sure they vaguely remember being there and thinking it was exciting as all parades are to a kid. But they didn't know what was going on until years later as they learned about history and their parents explained it. Then they retroactively fit it back into the clueless memories they actually have, and voila.... i understood all the nuances and importance of one of the most complex social issues america has ever faced at the age of 7.... sorry, not buying it.
Likewise, I don't doubt that you remember hearing the album at that age and liking it and being fascinated with the singer, which would only grow as you age. But no way would a 7 year old be sitting there listening to a hit pop song and reflecting deeply on the societal and sociological impact of Gen X. That all came later and was fitted retroactively into the earlier, real memories.