Only 10 million people have Ten? What?!!

musicismylife78 · September 2009

obviously dont wish to diminish the massive sales Ten has had, but to me, it seems pretty low. I mean, obviously they disappeared, or sabotaged their own career for basically a decade there, but Ten is (save backspacer) their most accessible and pop oriented disc. its mainstream. Its what introduced them to the world, when grunge was the in thing, this is the disc that was tied into that term.

Doesnt really make sense why it would ONLY be 10 million. Shania Twain's Come On Over is 20 million, Guns and Roses Appetite for Destruction 18 million, Hootie and The Blowfish Cracked Rear View 16 million, Alanis Morrisette Jagged Little Pill 16 million.

I tried to pick out the big albums from the 90's above.

Ten it seems should have sold as much as those, if not more.

Although Nevermind is the same thing, ONLY 10 million. Ten and Nevermind are basically the two albums that defined grunge. They are must haves.

How could only 10 million people have these two albums?

cajunkiwi · September 2009

Hootie and the Blowfish 16 million...
Pearl Jam 10 million...

Something inside of me just died...

musicismylife78 · September 2009

I know its a ridiculous number of records 10 million, but in many ways it seems so little, so small as well.

Think about that...one of the big four bands of the 1990's scene...Ten their most accesible and poppiest and mainstream record...and includes songs they are most famous for Alive, Even Flow, Jeremy...

and only 10 million of us have it? Obviously in 1999 things start becoming skewed because people can start downloading Ten for free and their is no way to tabulate that anymore...but still from 1991-1999 they sold 10 million of this thing.

WhiteMaleRat · September 2009

are those actual sold or shipped? Ten is certified 13x platinum for shipped I believe.

PJ has sold over 60 million worldwide total for all albums - that's the important # to me to compare.

pjhawks · September 2009

musicismylife78 wrote:

I know its a ridiculous number of records 10 million, but in many ways it seems so little, so small as well.

Think about that...one of the big four bands of the 1990's scene...Ten their most accesible and poppiest and mainstream record...and includes songs they are most famous for Alive, Even Flow, Jeremy...

and only 10 million of us have it? Obviously in 1999 things start becoming skewed because people can start downloading Ten for free and their is no way to tabulate that anymore...but still from 1991-1999 they sold 10 million of this thing.

actually 9,999,999 have it since i have it 2x - once on cassette and once on cd. same with Vs. and many other albums from the 80s and early 90s.

that Hootie and the Blowfish album was massive though - and the only thing they ever really sold - as the guy above says, 60 million total all albums by PJ is pretty impressive.

and will we ever see a 10 million selling album by anyone again?

Niko80 · September 2009

anyone remember that guy here that kept us up to date with soundscan numbers, how many units sold each wek for every pj album?

anyways, his info had nirvanas nevermind on around 7,5 million, and ten on 9,3 or something.

I miss that list!!

i shit and i stink · September 2009

WhiteMaleRat wrote:

are those actual sold or shipped? Ten is certified 13x platinum for shipped I believe.

PJ has sold over 60 million worldwide total for all albums - that's the important # to me to compare.

Only 5 million behind the Village People...

Veddernarian · September 2009

10 million purchased it. Probably 100 million have it. That's the problem. Things have changed. In the past, it was album sales you made a living off of. Now, ticket prices go up, special deals, merch, etc. Revenue comes from varying sources now that the music is virtually freeware due to the widespread looting.

Ricsard · September 2009

More than 16 million Ten has been sold worldwide, that's pretty impressive :roll: and this is #86 top selling album ever! (inbetween two fuckin great Irish albums: U2's Achtung Baby at #85 and Cranberries' No Need To Argue at #87)

oona left · September 2009

Just a comment on the title of the thread - the number of new albums purchased does not necessarily equal the number of copies owned.

Thrifty music fans often buy used albums. These, I believe, do not count towards an album's total numbers, as that would be redundant.

I could be wrong, though. It wouldn't be the first time 8-)

BF25394 · September 2009

There's a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison happening here. You're comparing the 10 million in sales of "Ten" to 16 million in units shipped of "Cracked Rear View." As someone posted earlier today, "Ten" is actually certified for 13 million units shipped.

Anyway, as popular as "Ten" was/is, it's still a very hard rock album, which limits its reach. Your grandma might have bought "Cracked Rear View" (or, more to the point, you might have bought it for her), but your grandma probably would have no interest in "Ten," which is loud and contains four swear words. Also, even though we like to talk about "Alive," "Even Flow," "Jeremy" and "Black" as radio hits, they weren't quite that, at least not in terms of broad mainstream radio airplay (i.e., on CHR/Top 40 stations), and definitely not in comparison to "Only Wanna Be With You," "Let Her Cry" and "Hold My Hand" (from "Cracked Rear View") and "Ironic," "You Learn," "Head Over Feet," "You Oughta Know" and "Hand In My Pocket" (from "Jagged Little Pill").

And, yes, it's true that "Led Zeppelin IV" has been certified for sales of 23 million, but remember that: a) it has had 20 extra years to rack up sales; and b) it sold millions of additional copies when everyone who already owned the LP went out and bought the CD when it became available in the '80s. There has been no similar format change since "Ten" was released; the CD was already ascendant in August 1991. Some people might have traded up from the cassette to the CD in the years after the record came out, but those numbers would be negligible.

Having said all that, it is amazing to think that the best-selling album of all-time, "Thriller" is certified for 29 million units shipped in the U.S. That means that, if every copy that was shipped had been sold and was currently in the possession of an American, less than 10 percent of the population would own the album. And that's the best-selling album of all-time.

musicismylife78 · September 2009

BF25394 wrote:

There's a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison happening here. You're comparing the 10 million in sales of "Ten" to 16 million in units shipped of "Cracked Rear View." As someone posted earlier today, "Ten" is actually certified for 13 million units shipped.

Anyway, as popular as "Ten" was/is, it's still a very hard rock album, which limits its reach. Your grandma might have bought "Cracked Rear View" (or, more to the point, you might have bought it for her), but your grandma probably would have no interest in "Ten," which is loud and contains four swear words. Also, even though we like to talk about "Alive," "Even Flow," "Jeremy" and "Black" as radio hits, they weren't quite that, at least not in terms of broad mainstream radio airplay (i.e., on CHR/Top 40 stations), and definitely not in comparison to "Only Wanna Be With You," "Let Her Cry" and "Hold My Hand" (from "Cracked Rear View") and "Ironic," "You Learn," "Head Over Feet," "You Oughta Know" and "Hand In My Pocket" (from "Jagged Little Pill").

And, yes, it's true that "Led Zeppelin IV" has been certified for sales of 23 million, but remember that: a) it has had 20 extra years to rack up sales; and b) it sold millions of additional copies when everyone who already owned the LP went out and bought the CD when it became available in the '80s. There has been no similar format change since "Ten" was released; the CD was already ascendant in August 1991. Some people might have traded up from the cassette to the CD in the years after the record came out, but those numbers would be negligible.

Having said all that, it is amazing to think that the best-selling album of all-time, "Thriller" is certified for 29 million units shipped in the U.S. That means that, if every copy that was shipped had been sold and was currently in the possession of an American, less than 10 percent of the population would own the album. And that's the best-selling album of all-time.

Good point. And thats I think why the 10 or 12 million seems low to me. That the u.s. has 300 million people, and of that 10-12 million bought Ten.

And I think it will never be an accurate number. The downloading era as I said makes it impossible anymore to fully see the true amount of people who have an album. When Backspacer's first week sales are announced Wednesday we only get half the picture. We will know how many people bought it legally. We wont know however how many hundreds of thousands or millions of people, who downloaded it for free.

The idea too, seems low because the 10-12 million number doesnt take into account those who owned the record, bought it, and made a cassette for someone else of it, or burned a copy of it for a friend. ANd it doesnt take into account those who have listened to it, but dont own it. Whose sister or brother or parents bought the record, and they happened to grow up in a household where Ten was played alot etc...

Because I sure as hell know more people have listened to or own Thriller than 29 million people. Again, thats a pretty low number

musicismylife78 · September 2009

my point is, no one will ever know how many people ever were touched by Zoso, or had their lives altered when they heard it. There is just no way to tell.

No way to tell, how many people heard Bruce's Born to Run and the world stopped spinning for them for an hour.

Numbers are interesting, and are fun facts, but what I just talked about above is far more important to me.

At the end of the day, to me, an album that can do that stuff, alter your perception of the world, of your life, an album that can make you feel less alone, an album that paints your entire sky, those are special moments and albums, and for alot of us, it wouldnt matter if those albums sold 200 copies or 200 million. To be honest these albums and moments are really the only thing that matters. What matters is how everything changed when that singer started singing, or that guitar riff started...

BF25394 · September 2009

The "multiplier effect" is not that great. If an album sells 200,000 copies (legally), the number obtained illegally is probably somewhat less than that. In other words, there might be 50,000 people who have obtained "Backspacer" by illegal download or copying, but there are not 500,000 people who have done so.

I think you're right that the "Thriller" sales numbers may underestimate the actual reach of the album, but I don't think it's a huge underestimation. It's a reflection of how diverse America is-- that something could be so "popular," and yet be purchased by so relatively few-- and also that there's a difference between awareness of a product and buying the product.

On the first point (diversity), think about "American Idol." It is the most-watched television program, and it typically draws a little under 30 million viewers, or less than 10 percent of the U.S. population.

On the second point, I'm reminded of remarks the now-retired commentator Billy Packer used to make about the NCAA Tournament. Every year, the ratings for the early rounds of the NCAA Tournament would be low, and Packer would express his incredulity. He would say that, everywhere he went, people seemed to be interested in college hoops. Packer, of course, wasn't considering that just because someone is talking about the NCAA Tournament, it doesn't mean he's watching it (not to mention the self-selection bias-- what else are people going to approach Billy Packer to talk about?). With respect to Pearl Jam, I know many people who count themselves as Pearl Jam fans, but who haven't bought a Pearl Jam album in ten years or more.

BF25394 · September 2009

musicismylife78 wrote:

my point is, no one will ever know how many people ever were touched by Zoso, or had their lives altered when they heard it. There is just no way to tell.

No way to tell, how many people heard Bruce's Born to Run and the world stopped spinning for them for an hour.

Numbers are interesting, and are fun facts, but what I just talked about above is far more important to me.

At the end of the day, to me, an album that can do that stuff, alter your perception of the world, of your life, an album that can make you feel less alone, an album that paints your entire sky, those are special moments and albums, and for alot of us, it wouldnt matter if those albums sold 200 copies or 200 million. To be honest these albums and moments are really the only thing that matters. What matters is how everything changed when that singer started singing, or that guitar riff started...

Of course, but most people don't experience music that way. People who post here do, but most people don't take it that seriously. For me and you, "Born To Run" conjures all sorts of emotion and nostalgia, but the majority of people who like it just likee it because it rocks.

musicismylife78 · September 2009

BF25394 wrote:

musicismylife78 wrote:

my point is, no one will ever know how many people ever were touched by Zoso, or had their lives altered when they heard it. There is just no way to tell.

No way to tell, how many people heard Bruce's Born to Run and the world stopped spinning for them for an hour.

Numbers are interesting, and are fun facts, but what I just talked about above is far more important to me.

At the end of the day, to me, an album that can do that stuff, alter your perception of the world, of your life, an album that can make you feel less alone, an album that paints your entire sky, those are special moments and albums, and for alot of us, it wouldnt matter if those albums sold 200 copies or 200 million. To be honest these albums and moments are really the only thing that matters. What matters is how everything changed when that singer started singing, or that guitar riff started...

Of course, but most people don't experience music that way. People who post here do, but most people don't take it that seriously. For me and you, "Born To Run" conjures all sorts of emotion and nostalgia, but the majority of people who like it just likee it because it rocks.

You really think that BF? I agree in that, alot of people use music more as background noise than as some sort of special, spiritual thing. And that alot of people just listen mindlessly to a cd while in the car driving to work or to WalMart or they listen to their iPod while jogging, but you dont think its evenly split between hardcores and the regular background music folk?

What you reference is something that I wish was studied more, researched more. How is music internalized by people? What effect does hearing Born to Run have on someone, what does it alter if anything? Can a song alter your perceptions of the world and your surroundings? Can hearing Thunder Road if you feel trapped and empty, make your world open up after you hear it a thousand times or whatever? Being exposed to Ten, or Dylan, or Neil, at a young age, what does that do to you, mentally, and emotionally? I would be interested in that research if it ever came out. Thats what really facinates me. Because in many ways, I attribute many of my own personality and changes and feelings to songs or albums or bands.

I would like to think more people do take music seriously like you or I, but you may be right. We may be in the minority.

musicismylife78 · September 2009

and I also would have thought the multiplier effect as you termed it would have been greater. For instance, I think, it would be the other way around. More people would download it than buy it. Obviously in 2001 the regular album sales would trump downloads, but nowadays, I think alot of people just download it.

Like for a Arcade Fire, Funeral didnt do well at first, but then Pitchfork gave them that 9 point whatever score and they became the biggest band around at least to indie rock people. I think Funeral only sold 2 hundred thousand, but I would bet, the people who own it illegally is in the millions.

But maybe thats just wishful thinking.

Same with Radiohead especially In Rainbows. I would bet, and I think it was proven that more people got it for free rather than buying the physical copy or the box set.

Thats why the Billboard charts are essentially meaningless. There is no reliable or practical way to figure out, how many people own Bright Eyes I'm Wide Awake and Its Morning, specifically those who downloaded it illegally

BF25394 · September 2009

Obviously, I have no scientific data to back this up, but it's my considered opinion based on a lifetime of experience in and around music (and people) that it's not even close to 50/50.

hrd2imgn · September 2009

Ten has sold over 13 million albums in the US, it was certified at 13 In March. Hootie is at 16 still.

good enough for 33rd of all time

check the Riaa website

BF25394 · September 2009

Hrd2Imgn,

As discussed elsewhere, RIAA certification does not track sales, but units shipped. Pearl Jam's actual U.S. sales of "Ten," measured by SoundScan, are about 9.6 million.

Musicismylife,

"In Rainbows" is a bit of an outlier, because it was legally available for free. (Most people paid, but no payment was necessary.) It's a different situation than the typical album, which requires you to break the law to download it for free. The vast majority of music consumers do not download illegally. Some genres are more prone to illegal downloading than others (hip-hop, college rock) but, even so, there is no way that a million people have downloaded Arcade Fire. It's true that "Funeral" went out of print when the Pitchfork review appeared, but Merge's inventory was probably only 25,000 or something in that vicinity. Pitchfork doesn't even have a million readers.

The Billboard charts aren't meaningless. Even though it's fun for me and you to track them, they are not for music fans. They are for the music industry. In the industry, music is commerce, and there is nothing more meaningful in commerce than how many units you sell. That's what the chart tracks. They are also useful as a measure of overall popularity because, to the extent that people are obtaining albums off the radar, it will be more or less in proportion to overall sales.

vedder_soup · September 2009

i have several copies... their figures are wrong

Only 10 million people have Ten? What?!!

Comments

Categories