Elton and Lily take stand against filesharing

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  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    Actually, the point about HMV having problems is a tricky one, because that's equally down to people shopping online. I'll generally order any album I'm actually buying off Play or Amazon or CD Wow, because their prices are usually at least 50% better than record shops. The only thing I'll buy in actual record shops is vinyl, cos I don't want a shattered piece of uselessness coming in the post.
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • Digital Twilight
    Digital Twilight Posts: 5,642
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    Actually, the point about HMV having problems is a tricky one, because that's equally down to people shopping online. I'll generally order any album I'm actually buying off Play or Amazon or CD Wow, because their prices are usually at least 50% better than record shops. The only thing I'll buy in actual record shops is vinyl, cos I don't want a shattered piece of uselessness coming in the post.

    Its a circle isnt it? They charge too much, so we download for free, they dont make as much money so they get rid of cds for games and stuff.
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    Digital Twilight wrote:
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    Actually, the point about HMV having problems is a tricky one, because that's equally down to people shopping online. I'll generally order any album I'm actually buying off Play or Amazon or CD Wow, because their prices are usually at least 50% better than record shops. The only thing I'll buy in actual record shops is vinyl, cos I don't want a shattered piece of uselessness coming in the post.

    Its a circle isnt it? They charge too much, so we download for free, they dont make as much money so they get rid of cds for games and stuff.
    Well, that's my point - canny shoppers, even ones who don't necessarily download illegally, will probably order some CDs online as long as they're significantly cheaper than retail. HMV's overcharging would be a problem with or without filesharing.
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • facepollution
    facepollution Posts: 6,834
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    Actually, the point about HMV having problems is a tricky one, because that's equally down to people shopping online. I'll generally order any album I'm actually buying off Play or Amazon or CD Wow, because their prices are usually at least 50% better than record shops. The only thing I'll buy in actual record shops is vinyl, cos I don't want a shattered piece of uselessness coming in the post.

    Very true.

    It's amazing that between record companies and the record shops, nobody seems to have twigged that people would be more likely to buy cds if they were cheaper. It's not like they cost a lot to physically produce them. I mentioned it earlier in the thread, they could do a more elaborately packaged version, and a really basic version in a carboard sleeve kind of like PJ's bootleg packaging. That way the more casual fans could pick up the basic version for say under a fiver, and the hard core fans could, and would most likely splash out on the higher priced versions.

    I'll bet that the majority of HMV's cd sales are probably through their ongoing multi-save sales. Why would I buy a new album there for £12 when I could get three older albums for the same price in one of their deals? Like you, I buy most of my cds online, or if they have them, at the local supermarket. Thus it would make much more sense to look at the average prices people are willing to spend and adjust accordingly.
  • tcaporale
    tcaporale Posts: 1,577
    Video of some random dude pwning Lily Allen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL9-esIM2CY&feature=player_embedded

    He uses the beat from her song "22".
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    why dont we ask radiohead fans what value music has?
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  • mookeywrench
    mookeywrench Posts: 6,086
    musicismylife....

    people keep coming into this thread in support not stealing music with tons of fresh ideas that knock out your points but you keep on saying the same few things over and over again with nothing to back it up...

    I guess if you say it enough times it comes true eh? This is why you can't rationalize with irrational people.

    oh and P.S. the average price of a CD in 2004 was $13.00 and it's only gone down since. So enough of this 20 buck crap.
  • mookeywrench
    mookeywrench Posts: 6,086
    oh yeah and here's that breakdown I asked for earlier as to where the price of a CD goes to from a Rolling Stone magazine article.

    The numbers come from an independent (as in not in support of a label or music fan boy) research and marketing database called the Almighty Institute of Music Retail.

    For a CD with a list price of 15.99

    $0.17 Musicians' unions
    $0.80 Packaging/manufacturing
    $0.82 Publishing royalties
    $0.80 Retail profit
    $0.90 Distribution
    $1.60 Artists' royalties
    $1.70 Label profit
    $2.40 Marketing/promotion
    $2.91 Label overhead
    $3.89 Retail overhead

    Anything not in bold is an expense and no one sees that money between the label the artist and the retailer .

    The numbers don't lie....oh yeah...and because people are stealing music on such a large scale some labels change the contracts for new bands so that the labels get even more profit by lowering the amount of artist's royalties per album and then giving the artist more royalties until they recoupe....there's a nice unintended consequence for ya.

    "I've said it before", if you don't like record labels...the solution is to not buy from that label...not stealing

    Oh and another thing, this article was released in 2004, when the avg price of a CD was 13.00, so 3 bucks needs to be pulled out of that equation in order to satisfy your customers....I'm gonna let you play CFO here musicismylife....where do you pull out the 3 bucks?
  • JordyWordy
    JordyWordy Posts: 2,261
    you can talk about prices going down where you are....all i know is that in Ireland any new releases cost €18 approx. Which is what, like 20 or 24 bucks? thats a big fucking difference.
  • keeponrockin
    keeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    mookeywrench wrote:
    oh yeah and here's that breakdown I asked for earlier as to where the price of a CD goes to from a Rolling Stone magazine article.

    The numbers come from an independent (as in not in support of a label or music fan boy) research and marketing database called the Almighty Institute of Music Retail.

    For a CD with a list price of 15.99

    $0.17 Musicians' unions
    $0.80 Packaging/manufacturing
    $0.82 Publishing royalties
    $0.80 Retail profit
    $0.90 Distribution
    $1.60 Artists' royalties
    $1.70 Label profit
    $2.40 Marketing/promotion
    $2.91 Label overhead
    $3.89 Retail overhead

    Anything not in bold is an expense and no one sees that money between the label the artist and the retailer .

    The numbers don't lie....oh yeah...and because people are stealing music on such a large scale some labels change the contracts for new bands so that the labels get even more profit by lowering the amount of artist's royalties per album and then giving the artist more royalties until they recoupe....there's a nice unintended consequence for ya.

    "I've said it before", if you don't like record labels...the solution is to not buy from that label...not stealing

    Oh and another thing, this article was released in 2004, when the avg price of a CD was 13.00, so 3 bucks needs to be pulled out of that equation in order to satisfy your customers....I'm gonna let you play CFO here musicismylife....where do you pull out the 3 bucks?

    *Applauds*
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • facepollution
    facepollution Posts: 6,834
    mookeywrench wrote:
    For a CD with a list price of 15.99

    $0.17 Musicians' unions
    $0.80 Packaging/manufacturing
    $0.82 Publishing royalties
    $0.80 Retail profit
    $0.90 Distribution
    $1.60 Artists' royalties
    $1.70 Label profit
    $2.40 Marketing/promotion
    $2.91 Label overhead
    $3.89 Retail overhead

    Anything not in bold is an expense and no one sees that money between the label the artist and the retailer .

    So how do they get away with selling cds for much less than that? None of those things have to be set in stone.
  • keeponrockin
    keeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    facepollution wrote:
    mookeywrench wrote:
    For a CD with a list price of 15.99

    $0.17 Musicians' unions
    $0.80 Packaging/manufacturing
    $0.82 Publishing royalties
    $0.80 Retail profit
    $0.90 Distribution
    $1.60 Artists' royalties
    $1.70 Label profit
    $2.40 Marketing/promotion
    $2.91 Label overhead
    $3.89 Retail overhead

    Anything not in bold is an expense and no one sees that money between the label the artist and the retailer .

    So how do they get away with selling cds for much less than that? None of those things have to be set in stone.

    I'm sure Wal-Mart, etc. Can do this as a lost litre.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • facepollution
    facepollution Posts: 6,834
    keeponrockin wrote:
    I'm sure Wal-Mart, etc. Can do this as a lost litre.

    Yeah but I doubt the record shops can.
  • facepollution
    facepollution Posts: 6,834
    tcaporale wrote:
    Video of some random dude pwning Lily Allen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL9-esIM2CY&feature=player_embedded

    He uses the beat from her song "22".

    That was brilliant! And so true.
  • pjhawks
    pjhawks Posts: 13,044
    the only way to stop file sharing is to come up with technology that doesn't allow music files to be copied - as long as it is as easy to do as it is currently there is no stopping file sharing. unfortunately for the record industry because they have been slow to stop file sharing technically you have a generation of fans today (say the under 25 crowd) who has grown up with file sharing as the norm.
  • facepollution
    facepollution Posts: 6,834
    pjhawks wrote:
    unfortunately for the record industry because they have been slow to stop file sharing technically you have a generation of fans today (say the under 25 crowd) who has grown up with file sharing as the norm.

    Agreed. Whether it's right or wrong, to eradicate file sharing now, could potentially be very harmful to a lot of artists. People share music because they are passionate about it. People like to bring new music to their friends, and with the internet, their friends can be all over the world. Like you said, file sharing is the norm for a whole generation of people, a generation who have completely different ideas about experiencing music. Personally I think it's about time that people put the moral argument aside for a minute, and looked at the bigger picture.

    P.s As a side note, if the dramatic increase in concert ticket prices is a direct result of illegal downloading, can we presume that if they did manage to halt illegal downloading, that ticket prices would fall?
  • musicismylife78
    musicismylife78 Posts: 6,116
    facepollution wrote:
    pjhawks wrote:
    unfortunately for the record industry because they have been slow to stop file sharing technically you have a generation of fans today (say the under 25 crowd) who has grown up with file sharing as the norm.

    Agreed. Whether it's right or wrong, to eradicate file sharing now, could potentially be very harmful to a lot of artists. People share music because they are passionate about it. People like to bring new music to their friends, and with the internet, their friends can be all over the world. Like you said, file sharing is the norm for a whole generation of people, a generation who have completely different ideas about experiencing music. Personally I think it's about time that people put the moral argument aside for a minute, and looked at the bigger picture.

    P.s As a side note, if the dramatic increase in concert ticket prices is a direct result of illegal downloading, can we presume that if they did manage to halt illegal downloading, that ticket prices would fall?


    I think the ticket prices rising as a result of downloading is another scare tactic. Cd's are overpriced and concerts have been overpriced for decades, what makes you or anyone think this situation would magically be better if no downloading existed. We have documentary evidence to prove this. The early 90's were a non downloading time, no napster no torrents. And a certain famous band, one named Pearl jam or something, went on a crusade suggesting that ticket prices were absurd and unfair. And of course you have the Ian Mackaye method of selling music, which is each cd is 10 bucks. So cd prices and ticket prices have been rising through the years, even without this downloading this. They rose, year after year.

    Someone here mentioned that a way to stop filesharing is to put anticopying software on the cd. Its been tried before, a few years back many cd's came with anti copying devices on them. And people got pissed. I think another issue is, the fundamental idea, I have posted about 5 times without a response now is, its one thing to be against someone downloading a torrent from BTTorrent. its another thing entirely to buy a cd, then copy it to your computer and then burn a disc, that disc for as friend or your mom. Is that stealing? A hell of a lot of people do it. And if you buy a cd, are you allowed to do whatever the hell you feel like with it, since you paid for it?
  • musicismylife78
    musicismylife78 Posts: 6,116
    facepollution wrote:
    pjhawks wrote:
    unfortunately for the record industry because they have been slow to stop file sharing technically you have a generation of fans today (say the under 25 crowd) who has grown up with file sharing as the norm.

    Agreed. Whether it's right or wrong, to eradicate file sharing now, could potentially be very harmful to a lot of artists. People share music because they are passionate about it. People like to bring new music to their friends, and with the internet, their friends can be all over the world. Like you said, file sharing is the norm for a whole generation of people, a generation who have completely different ideas about experiencing music. Personally I think it's about time that people put the moral argument aside for a minute, and looked at the bigger picture.

    P.s As a side note, if the dramatic increase in concert ticket prices is a direct result of illegal downloading, can we presume that if they did manage to halt illegal downloading, that ticket prices would fall?


    Good point, I think many people who dont download act like those who do, are criminals and scum. I personally dont download because I hate the artists. I dont even necessarily download because I hate the multibillion dollar companies who are a bunch of wusses. I download, because I love music plain and simple.

    I have a massive cd collection, massive collection of cd's I downloaded. I dont do it because I love stealing. I do it because my life is meaningless without music. I do it, because I dont think people have a right to charge 18 bucks for a new cd. As I said, if I have 100 bucks, makes much more sense to buy 3 or 4 spindles of 50 blanks, than to go to a store and get 5 cd's at most at 18 bucks a pop. Just common sense.

    And I do, in many ways, find it gross how alot of multi millionaire musicians talk down to illegal downloaders.

    The basic facts are: if you are starting a band tonight. Its YOUR OWN FAULT if you come into this thing and continue thinking that you will be making huge amounts of money off cd sales. It just aint gonna happen.

    What makes more sense in light of those facts: to try and shut down hundreds of millions of illegal downloaders, or to come up with new and interesting ways to promote and sell and package your music and tours and merch?
  • musicismylife78
    musicismylife78 Posts: 6,116
    I think the question is also about access. As a matter of principle, I could right now, head to my local cd store and buy a few dylan records, 5 maybe, for 100 bucks. Or I could go on a torrent and download his entire catalogue and have them all on cd by tonight. I really dont think there is that much debate about what a majority of people have chosen to do.

    And no one has mentioned this: in the past vcr's were opposed by tv and media companies because they felt that people could tape shows and obviously it would be free to do so.
  • Digital Twilight
    Digital Twilight Posts: 5,642
    Just because you love music doesnt mean you have the right to steal it. Just because they dont get rich off cd sales doesnt mean you can steal it. I have stated in a previous post other ways you could support artists but you havnt replied. I say again take 15 % of your next pay check and just give it away. Its not all of it but its a good portion. You seem to come up with the same argument repeatedly but still haven't explained why you think you have a right to free music.

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