Iraqi shoe thrower

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  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118


    how can you say in 1 post you are giving "facts" and in another say it's impossible to be 100% accurate???

    its a fact that at least 11 people died. thats the starting point. its not completely accurate because the report didn't know the entire total. but where does common sense come into play.

    does it make more sense to say 11 to maybe even up to 50 people died?

    or just round up and say 1000 people died?
  • jlew24asu wrote:


    how can you say in 1 post you are giving "facts" and in another say it's impossible to be 100% accurate???

    its a fact that at least 11 people died. thats the starting point. its not completely accurate because the report didn't know the entire total. but where does common sense come into play.

    does it make more sense to say 11 to maybe even up to 50 people died?

    or just round up and say 1000 people died?


    it would make more sense to say you don't know

    i didn't know a fact could be "not completely accurate"
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    jlew24asu wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:

    you would think one would cite an example that didn't use the words "At Least" in the heading ... there is no accuracy whatsoever in this one article ... how are they supposed to get an accurate number based on things like this?

    like I've said a thousand times...its nearly impossible to be 100% accurate when reporting deaths. this "at least" number means its probably in the range 11-30 maybe?

    but based on that should be assume 10,000 died? no.

    but this is one incident ... let's say the figures of those wounded - half of those die and there are others ... even if we use your range (11 - 30) ... that's almost 200% higher than the original tally ... now, multiply that out over the number of incidents and you start getting the discrepancies everyone sees ...
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    polaris_x wrote:

    but this is one incident ... let's say the figures of those wounded - half of those die and there are others ... even if we use your rante ... that's almost 200% higher than the original tally ... now, multiply that out over the number of incidents and you start getting the discrepancies everyone sees ...

    so its that easy to be off but 900,000? I don't think so. and not every single incident is off but 50 dead. I was using an extreme example.

    you are making very big assumptions that every report is off by alot and that at least half the people die who are injured.

    assumptions are not facts.
  • jlew24asu wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:

    but this is one incident ... let's say the figures of those wounded - half of those die and there are others ... even if we use your rante ... that's almost 200% higher than the original tally ... now, multiply that out over the number of incidents and you start getting the discrepancies everyone sees ...

    so its that easy to be off but 900,000? I don't think so. and not every single incident is off but 50 dead. I was using an extreme example.

    you are making very big assumptions that every report is off by alot and that at least half the people die who are injured.

    assumptions are not facts.


    exactly, so the assumptions of your report are not a fact
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118

    exactly, so the assumptions of your report are not a fact

    the report is saying 11 people died. that is not an assumption.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    jlew24asu wrote:
    so its that easy to be off but 900,000? I don't think so. and not every single incident is off but 50 dead. I was using an extreme example.

    you are making very big assumptions that every report is off by alot and that at least half the people die who are injured.

    assumptions are not facts.

    i'm not making any assumptions - i've never claimed to know the number ... my only point is that you can't use media reports to form any remotely accurage count ...
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    polaris_x wrote:

    i'm not making any assumptions - i've never claimed to know the number ... my only point is that you can't use media reports to form any remotely accurage count ...

    of course its remotely accurate. we know 11 people died. that is a fact. so take 11 dead and make an honest assumption about how many more people could have possibly died. its not 100%, but its as close as you can get to be accurate.

    how is a survey of 1500 people out of a country of almost 30,000,000 remotely accurate?
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    http://www.truthout.org/article/burying-lancet-report


    '...Official and media criticism of Roberts's work has focused on the size of his sample, 988 homes in 33 clusters distributed throughout the country, but other epidemiologists reject the notion that this is controversial.

    Michael O'Toole, the director of the Center for International Health in Australia, says: "That's a classical sample size. I just don't see any evidence of significant exaggeration.... If anything, the deaths may have been higher because what they are unable to do is survey families where everyone has died."[/color]

    Roberts has also compared his work in Iraq to other epidemiological studies: "In 1993, when the US Centers for Disease Control randomly called 613 households in Milwaukee and concluded that 403,000 people had developed Cryptosporidium in the largest outbreak ever recorded in the developed world, no one said that 613 households was not a big enough sample. It is odd that the logic of epidemiology embraced by the press every day regarding new drugs or health risks somehow changes when the mechanism of death is their armed forces."


    ...Beyond the phony controversy regarding the methodology of the Lancet report, there is one issue that does cast doubt on its findings. This is the decision to exclude the cluster in Fallujah from its computations due to the much higher number of deaths that were reported there (even though the survey was completed before the widely reported assault on the city in November 2004). Roberts wrote, in a letter to the Independent, "Please understand how extremely conservative we were: we did a survey estimating that 285,000 people have died due to the first 18 months of invasion and occupation and we reported it as at least 100,000."...

    A second feature of the epidemiologists' findings that has not been sufficiently explored is the one suggested above by Michael O'Toole. Since their report establishes that aerial assault and bombardment is the leading cause of violent death in Iraq and, since a direct hit by a 500 pound Mark 82 bomb will render most houses uninhabitable, any survey that disregards damaged, uninhabited houses is sure to underreport deaths. This should be taken into account by any follow-up studies...'

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_sur ... casualties
    'Ronald Waldman, an epidemiologist at Columbia University who worked at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for many years, called the survey method "tried and true," and added that "this is the best estimate of mortality we have."

    In a letter to The Age, published Oct. 21, 2006, 27 epidemiologists and health professionals defended the methods of the study, writing that the study's "methodology is sound and its conclusions should be taken seriously."[5]

    A Reuters article reports on other researchers, epidemiologists, professors, and physicians who have defended the study. For example; this quote from the article;

    "Over the last 25 years, this sort of methodology has been used more and more often, especially by relief agencies in times of emergency," said Dr. David Rush, a professor and epidemiologist at Tufts University in Boston.[79]

    Sir Richard Peto, Professor of Medical Statistics and Epidemiology in the University of Oxford, described the 2006 report as "statistically valid" in an interview on BBC television.[80]

    Dr. Ben Coghlan, an epidemiologist in Melbourne Australia, writes: "The US Congress should agree: in June this year [2006] they unanimously passed a bill outlining financial and political measures to promote relief, security and democracy in the Democratic Republic of Congo. The bill was based in part on the veracity of a survey conducted by the Burnet Institute (Melbourne) and the International Rescue Committee (New York) that found 3.9 million Congolese had perished because of the conflict. This survey used the same methodology as Burnham and his associates. It also passed the scrutiny of a UK parliamentary delegation and the European Union."[81] Burnham is one of the authors of both of the Lancet studies.

    An October 16, 2006 MediaLens article quotes many health experts, epidemiologists, biostatistics experts, polling experts, etc. who approve of the Lancet study and methodology.[82] For example:

    John Zogby, whose New York-based polling agency, Zogby International, has done several surveys in Iraq since the war began, said: "The sampling is solid. The methodology is as good as it gets. It is what people in the statistics business do." ...

    Professor Sheila Bird of the Biostatistics Unit at the Medical Research Council said: "They have enhanced the precision this time around and it is the only scientifically based estimate that we have got where proper sampling has been done and where we get a proper measure of certainty about these results."
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    jlew24asu wrote:
    of course its remotely accurate. we know 11 people died. that is a fact. so take 11 dead and make an honest assumption about how many more people could have possibly died. its not 100%, but its as close as you can get to be accurate.

    how is a survey of 1500 people out of a country of almost 30,000,000 remotely accurate?

    what is an honest assumption?
    what if an incident isn't reported in any media?
    what about the people that die from injuries after the incident is reported?

    every source has their methodology of which each one can be picked thru easily ... there are no accurate numbers - to think otherwise does not make any common sense ...
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8256525.stm

    Iraq shoe thrower 'was tortured'

    Tuesday, 15 September 2009 14:57 UK



    'The Iraqi journalist who threw his shoes at former US President George W Bush says he was tortured by senior government officials while in jail.

    Shortly after his release from nine months in a Baghdad prison, Muntadar al-Zaidi demanded an apology - and said he would name the officials later.

    Iraqi officials told the BBC his claims should be investigated.

    His protest last December made him a hero for many Arabs. He was convicted of assaulting a foreign leader.

    Initially, he was sentenced to three years in jail.

    But he had the term reduced to 12 months on appeal and was released three months early for good behaviour.

    After his release on Tuesday he told journalists: "I am free again, but my homeland is still a prison."

    Reuters news agency reported he was slurring his speech because of a missing tooth.

    He went on to say he had suffered beatings, whippings, electric shocks and simulated drowning at the hands of officials and guards.


    "At the time that Prime Minister Nouri Maliki said on television that he could not sleep without being reassured on my fate... I was being tortured in the worst ways, beaten with electric cables and iron bars," he said.

    He demanded an apology from Mr Maliki and said he would name the officials who tortured him in due course.

    He also said he feared US intelligence services regarded him as an "insurgent revolutionary" and would "spare no effort" in a bid to kill him.

    "I want to warn all my relatives and people close to me that these services will use all means to trap and try to kill and liquidate me either physically, socially or professionally," he said.

    His allegations of abuse mirror claims made earlier by his family, who said he had been beaten, suffering a broken arm, broken ribs and internal bleeding.

    The Iraqi military earlier denied the allegations, but following Zaidi's news conference Sami Al Askari, an adviser to Mr Maliki, said his torture claims should be investigated.

    Zaidi's family has been preparing to throw a party for him.

    He has reportedly received offers of money, jobs and even marriage from across the Arab world.

    His relatives say he was offered a golden horse by the Emir of Qatar.

    When news of his release filtered through to his family's home in Baghdad, there was an eruption of celebration, with women dancing and singing.

    The shoe-throwing incident came during a joint news conference between Mr Bush and Mr Maliki.

    As he threw the shoes, Zaidi shouted: "This is a goodbye kiss from the Iraqi people, dog.

    "This is from the widows, the orphans and those who were killed in Iraq."

    In an interview afterwards, Mr Bush insisted he did not harbour any ill feeling about it.

    "It was amusing - I've seen a lot of weird things during my presidency, and this may rank up there as one of the weirdest," he said.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    polaris_x wrote:
    what about the people that die from injuries after the incident is reported?

    And what about all the thousands who are incinerated in U.S air strikes when 500 1b bombs are dropped on their homes?
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    polaris_x wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    of course its remotely accurate. we know 11 people died. that is a fact. so take 11 dead and make an honest assumption about how many more people could have possibly died. its not 100%, but its as close as you can get to be accurate.

    how is a survey of 1500 people out of a country of almost 30,000,000 remotely accurate?

    what is an honest assumption?
    what if an incident isn't reported in any media?
    what about the people that die from injuries after the incident is reported?

    every source has their methodology of which each one can be picked thru easily ... there are no accurate numbers - to think otherwise does not make any common sense ...

    do you hold the one million dead number as fact?
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    jlew24asu wrote:
    do you hold the one million dead number as fact?

    nope
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    polaris_x wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    do you hold the one million dead number as fact?

    nope

    ok fair enough.

    my only beef is with those on this board who do. as you know, there are many. at least you seem to have a grasp on the difficult reality of the situation.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Both the authors of the Lancet report and the ORB report have stated that they regard their findings as an underestimation.

    http://www.truthout.org/article/burying-lancet-report
    '...there is one issue that does cast doubt on its findings. This is the decision to exclude the cluster in Fallujah from its computations due to the much higher number of deaths that were reported there (even though the survey was completed before the widely reported assault on the city in November 2004). Roberts wrote, in a letter to the Independent, "Please understand how extremely conservative we were: we did a survey estimating that 285,000 people have died due to the first 18 months of invasion and occupation and we reported it as at least 100,000."...

    A second feature of the epidemiologists' findings that has not been sufficiently explored is the one suggested above by Michael O'Toole. Since their report establishes that aerial assault and bombardment is the leading cause of violent death in Iraq and, since a direct hit by a 500 pound Mark 82 bomb will render most houses uninhabitable, any survey that disregards damaged, uninhabited houses is sure to underreport deaths. This should be taken into account by any follow-up studies...'
  • g under p
    g under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,236
    Why I Threw the Shoe

    By Muntazer al-Zaidi

    I am no hero. I just acted as an Iraqi who witnessed the pain and bloodshed of too many innocents.
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e23535.htm

    September 19, 2009 "The Guardian" -- I am free. But my country is still a prisoner of war. There has been a lot of talk about the action and about the person who took it, and about the hero and the heroic act, and the symbol and the symbolic act. But, simply, I answer: what compelled me to act is the injustice that befell my people, and how the occupation wanted to humiliate my homeland by putting it under its boot.

    I am not a hero. But I have a point of view. I have a stance. It humiliated me to see my country humiliated; and to see my Baghdad burned, my people killed. Thousands of tragic pictures remained in my head, pushing me towards the path of confrontation. The scandal of Abu Ghraib. The massacre of Falluja, Najaf, Haditha, Sadr City, Basra, Diyala, Mosul, Tal Afar, and every inch of our wounded land. I travelled through my burning land and saw with my own eyes the pain of the victims, and heard with my own ears the screams of the orphans and the bereaved. And a feeling of shame haunted me like an ugly name because I was powerless.

    I'm sure we can see the frustration this man went through to do wat he did and to suffer the consequence of being tortured after his arrest. He says he's no hero and I agree.

    The Iraqi man who threw shoes at President George W Bush says after release from
    jail that he was tortured by senior government officials.

    For more details: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • jlew24asu wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    do you hold the one million dead number as fact?

    nope

    ok fair enough.

    my only beef is with those on this board who do. as you know, there are many. at least you seem to have a grasp on the difficult reality of the situation.
    exaggerate much? who are these ''many on this board'' you speak of?

    just to help you out, the defitnition of many is:-

    - constituting or forming a large number; numerous: many people.
    - a large or considerable number of persons or things.
  • g under p
    g under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,236
    jlew24asu wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    of course its remotely accurate. we know 11 people died. that is a fact. so take 11 dead and make an honest assumption about how many more people could have possibly died. its not 100%, but its as close as you can get to be accurate.

    how is a survey of 1500 people out of a country of almost 30,000,000 remotely accurate?

    what is an honest assumption?
    what if an incident isn't reported in any media?
    what about the people that die from injuries after the incident is reported?

    every source has their methodology of which each one can be picked thru easily ... there are no accurate numbers - to think otherwise does not make any common sense ...

    do you hold the one million dead number as fact?

    War is hell, just little boys destroying an ant hill....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeFMPMo7p90

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)