Religulous

brandon10 · September 2009

_outlaw wrote:

brandon10 wrote:

If you can't look at the world around you and realize what a disgrace religion is, then I truly feel sorry for you.

I don't get it, is that what you call proving your point? Is this an argument?

And yes, the Isreal-Palastine conflict is about religion. If it was only about land, they may be able to live side by side. But because of their fucked up religions they prefer to kill each other. And you make posts here like you know everything? You either haven't got a clue or you have been completely brainwashed. Scary either way.

I just gave you a summary of what principle Zionism was founded on, the Palestinian national movement, etc, and all you can respond with is 'no, you're wrong' ?

Really?

And no, I don't know everything. I only have to know more than you about this topic which is fairly easy.

So you really think That conflict has nothing to do with religion? Nothing? WOW

brandon10 · September 2009

Byrnzie wrote:

brandon10 wrote:

And yes, the Isreal-Palastine conflict is about religion. If it was only about land, they may be able to live side by side. But because of their fucked up religions they prefer to kill each other.

It's a bit of both in this case. Zionism is a mix of religion and politics. A dangerous mix, not too disimilar to Nazism. Zionism is founded on ethnic supremacy and racism, and states that God has given Jews the right to own all of the land between the Jordan and the Meditteranean.

Yes, I agree with you. I have never stated that only religion was involved. I'm not sure any (recent) wars have been purely about religion. But religion is a big factor. And many times religion is what keeps these wars lasting lifetimes.

Basically Outlaw has helped me with my point. Religion is destructive. Politics are somewhat destructive at times and when you mix in religion they are disastrous.

brandon10 · September 2009

_outlaw wrote:

brandon10 wrote:

If you can't look at the world around you and realize what a disgrace religion is, then I truly feel sorry for you.

I don't get it, is that what you call proving your point? Is this an argument?

And yes, the Isreal-Palastine conflict is about religion. If it was only about land, they may be able to live side by side. But because of their fucked up religions they prefer to kill each other. And you make posts here like you know everything? You either haven't got a clue or you have been completely brainwashed. Scary either way.

I just gave you a summary of what principle Zionism was founded on, the Palestinian national movement, etc, and all you can respond with is 'no, you're wrong' ?

Really?

And no, I don't know everything. I only have to know more than you about this topic which is fairly easy.

You see, I don't need to post some link to an article. I can think for myself. It may not be the arguement you want. But I've been in this world long enough, read enough books and articles, and seen enough wars to form an informed position about my beliefs.

And you may know more about Zionism than I, but that doesn't help your arguement here when you are too stubborn to see that religion is a major factor in that conflict.

mca47 · September 2009

_outlaw wrote:

mca47 wrote:

Since man has been around, how many wars have been caused (at the least) in part because of difference in religious ideology? 80-90% maybe?

statistics look good on paper, let's see something to back that up, shall we?

What's going on in the middle east right now? Would not be happening if not for religion.

actually, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is more about territory than it is about religion. it's a common misconception that it would not be happening if not for religion. Theodor Herzl, who founded modern zionism, founded it on the belief that Jews need a place where they can live in peace and not be persecuted. All this nonsense about God telling us we had to live there came about only afterwards. Secondly, the Palestinian national movement was largely secular during the first several decades of the conflict. It was not until the late 1980s that the Palestinians began turning to religion.
Most other wars that took place in the Middle East, whether it was the first Gulf War, the current war in Iraq, or the war in Afghanistan, was always more for political and territorial reasons than for religious.

Take any religion and you can find people that have killed, maimed, and persecuted that religion based on other religious beliefs.
Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Jewish, Muslim, Jehovah Witness, Mormon, etc....

Like I said before, people are the reason other people were killed, maimed, etc... if it wasn't religion, humans would find some other way to justify means. religious fundamentalism runs so low in societies, people just take advantage of it and use it to their benefit. take Hamas for example, they are a strict religious group who only gained prominence in Palestine because of their ability to resist Israeli terror and their ability to support the Palestinian people, their religious beliefs don't weigh so much into anything.

Not only has organized religion caused millions of deaths, but also...

Cessation and of scientific progression. (Ex. stem cell research, others)
Further progression of the spread of disease.

Now you must be joking and you have clearly proved that you have not studied shit in your school. Sorry but either you had a bad education or you were a bad student. I'll use Islam as an example since I know most about it - if you know anything about its history you would know all the scientific advancements Muslims made, not to mention the philosophical, mathematical, navigational, technological, etc, types of advancements that were only made possible by these crazy nuts who claim that there's a God. In fact, if you claim to have studied religion, you would know that Islam preaches such advancements and education in general.

The teaching of abstinence is an ineffective and immoral teaching.

immoral? Sorry you can say a lot of things about abstinence, but even I don't think it's immoral. In fact, it is completely the opposite. It's very ethical and moral to practice abstinence. Now, that's not to say that it is immoral to not practice abstinence, but I have respect for those who choose to save themselves and not have one-night stands.

Not only will people do what they are evolutionarily designed for, but they will do so with or without Jesus.

so we're evolutionarily designed to go get really drunk at a bar and fuck some hot broad that hits on us? That doesn't make sense. Abstinence perfectly falls in like with "Evolution." As far as I know, Darwin didn't say humans are naturally designed to fuck a bunch of people in their lifetime.

And in fact the belief that condom suppression is a "good idea"...wow...more deaths. Then again science is a bitch.

does the bible say anything about condom suppression? The Qur'an? anything? no, I didn't think so. once again you're using a VERY small group of people to try to paint religion as a whole as being bad. Sorry, doesn't work.

I can go on and on...

please do. you've given no proof that you know anything about any religion or that you even studied any properly. you've only given the most common mainstream arguments that don't work against anyone who has even a decent idea of what he's talking about. please, keep going

So what makes you a religion expert? You seem to provide "rebuttal" to what I provided but cannot also provide more than generic talking points as often provided by those deeply engaged.

Talk about a "message board beat-down". Oh, and resorting to the bible for what is and isn't right is pretty weak...

fuck · September 2009

brandon10 wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

brandon10 wrote:

And yes, the Isreal-Palastine conflict is about religion. If it was only about land, they may be able to live side by side. But because of their fucked up religions they prefer to kill each other.

It's a bit of both in this case. Zionism is a mix of religion and politics. A dangerous mix, not too disimilar to Nazism. Zionism is founded on ethnic supremacy and racism, and states that God has given Jews the right to own all of the land between the Jordan and the Meditteranean.

Yes, I agree with you. I have never stated that only religion was involved. I'm not sure any (recent) wars have been purely about religion. But religion is a big factor. And many times religion is what keeps these wars lasting lifetimes.

Again, you're wrong. Even the Crusades weren't strictly about religion. In fact, I would say most of it wasn't about religion.

Basically Outlaw has helped me with my point.

how?

Religion is destructive. Politics are somewhat destructive at times and when you mix in religion they are disastrous.

religion isn't destructive, you haven't proven your point yet. politics isn't even really destructive, it's humans that are destructive.

fuck · September 2009

brandon10 wrote:

You see, I don't need to post some link to an article. I can think for myself.

I agree. But when it comes down to it, everyone can think for themselves, but when you make an argument such as "religion is shit" then you (normally) have to defend it by providing substantiated reasons and points.

It may not be the arguement you want. But I've been in this world long enough, read enough books and articles, and seen enough wars to form an informed position about my beliefs.

Please give me some links to these articles and tell me about these books. Also, please provide examples of wars based on religion with credible evidence.

And you may know more about Zionism than I, but that doesn't help your arguement here when you are too stubborn to see that religion is a major factor in that conflict.

It's not a major factor. You have provided no reason to show how it is a major factor. Is it a factor? Yes, and I've already said how it's a factor, but it is a minor one at most.

fuck · September 2009

mca47 wrote:

So what makes you a religion expert? You seem to provide "rebuttal" to what I provided but cannot also provide more than generic talking points as often provided by those deeply engaged.

I never claimed to be a religion "expert," but I've studied some religions for years, mostly Islam. And of course I'm going to provide a rebuttal to your arguments. Would you have wanted me to ignore them? You gave strict points about why yuo think religion is shit and I refuted them. You claimed to have studied religions, but it did not appear so from your post. For example, you claim religion has hindered scientific advancement. Of course, you fail to mention all the literary, mathematical, scientific, etc, advancements that religion has helped bring. Roman literature and philosophy was helped preserved by monks and catholics. the first Islamic empire brought some of the most sophisticated advancements of all time, from Algebra to philosophy to advancements in navigational technology. poetry and literature were strongly encouraged and preserved in many religious empires. your example was only the one most recent, stem cell research, which is only argued against by the more religious bunch portrayed hugely in the media. It's funny, people question always talk trash about how the media is biased towards one side, but when they make religion look bad no one questions it. when they show a muslim wearing a mask and saying some shit, everyone says islam is a dangerous religion. when they show a christian doing some shit against an abortion clinic, everyone says religious christians are crazy fundamentalists. it's ridiculous.

Talk about a "message board beat-down". Oh, and resorting to the bible for what is and isn't right is pretty weak...

huh, when did i resort to the bible for what is and isn't right?

Cosmo · September 2009

I have no problems with Religion in and of itself. Its basic goal is to achive a closer relationship with God.
The problem comes in when people are thrown into the mix. It is people who corrupt religion, not the religion itself. Whether we are talking about the Islamic fundamentalist who kills trying to restore ancient Islamic Law or the Christian terrorist that guns down a doctor in the name of Jesus... those are the ones that give religion a bad name.
Also, some religious leaders. The ones that believe their religion is the correct religion to follow and therefore, nullifies all other religions. This also applies to anyone who believes this ideal. Anyone claim to KNOW the truth about God is either a liar or a fool. We BELIEVE we have an understanding of our religion's description of God.. but, seriously... logically... we don't. Belief and faith are just that... belief and faith. They are not knowledge and truth as some of the faithful try to convince us.
If we all understood that.. that we really don't KNOW God and that we are all just searching for Him (to aetheists, God equals The Absolute Truth) in our own lives... we'd probably be serving Him better... and might get along with each other as a side effect.

kenny olav · September 2009

Cosmo wrote:

I have no problems with Religion in and of itself. Its basic goal is to achive a closer relationship with God.
The problem comes in when people are thrown into the mix. It is people who corrupt religion, not the religion itself. Whether we are talking about the Islamic fundamentalist who kills trying to restore ancient Islamic Law or the Christian terrorist that guns down a doctor in the name of Jesus... those are the ones that give religion a bad name.
Also, some religious leaders. The ones that believe their religion is the correct religion to follow and therefore, nullifies all other religions. This also applies to anyone who believes this ideal. Anyone claim to KNOW the truth about God is either a liar or a fool. We BELIEVE we have an understanding of our religion's description of God.. but, seriously... logically... we don't. Belief and faith are just that... belief and faith. They are not knowledge and truth as some of the faithful try to convince us.
If we all understood that.. that we really don't KNOW God and that we are all just searching for Him (to aetheists, God equals The Absolute Truth) in our own lives... we'd probably be serving Him better... and might get along with each other as a side effect.

That's a very nice view of the goal of religion, and if many more people held that view, the world would be a much nicer place. But I just don't see that as the reality of what religion is. We are all in wonderment (I hope) of the universe and of what life is, and what the soul might be, but religion seeks to make knowns of the unknown. I have no time for that. When I look at the world's religions, I see a lot of good things, but I see a lot of stupid and insane things too. It's those stupid and insane things that give people who have tendencies to act stupidly or insanely a reason to justify their actions. Because wherever religion is the dominant force, it becomes the law. Theocracies have the most awful practices, and the people accept them because it comes from their religion.

I just saw Religulous last night. I thought Bill Maher did a brilliant job. He's so great with people. He treats them with respect but doesn't shy away from his thoughts, and he usually gets people to laugh along with him even if they don't agree. He managed to get interviews with some really interesting people too. I find religion so fascinating. I always have. I grew up going to a conservative evangelical protestant church, but lived in a town full of Catholics. At times, I would go to Catholic mass with my friends (if, say, I slept over one of their houses on a Saturday night) and I remember being freaked out at first by all the stain glass windows and sculptures, but eventually the fact that Catholics were so much more relaxed about their religion, made me like them better than the Protestants who were always asking me questions about Jesus, which I could never answer properly, because I never understood it. Most of my friends are Catholic. There were two boys my age in my church, but I never made friends with them because one was a huge hypocrite and the other was just a freak. So many freaky families there. When I was 13, I had to go to this giant Christian gathering in Indiana for high school kids. Again, I got bombarded with Jesus shit, worse than ever before, and I was stuck there for a whole week with the freak and the hypocrite and thousands like them. That's when I finally got sick of Jesus. It made no fucking sense, and I was going mad trying to make sense of it. Shortly after, I discovered Monty Python and the Holy Grail, and thought "Yes!! There are people out there who also think this is ridiculous!!"

It's not easy to learn to live with not knowing what is out there, and what happens when you die. But once you accept it, it's actually a very liberating feeling.

Pepe Silvia · September 2009

brandon10 wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

George W Bush and Tony Blair both profess to be Christians, right? How many Iraqi's were killed in the past 6 years by these two cocksuckers? Over 1 million. And yet people think Muslims are dangerous?

Edit: I can't help being reminded of Israel's recent massacre in Gaza in January of this year. Israel killed 1,600 Palestinians, including an estimated 800 civilians, compared with 13 Israeli dead - 5 of whom were killed by friendly fire.
And what was the response from the West at the end of this carnage? "Hamas must lay down it's weapons and renounce violence!"

Oh the irony!

I'm not sure why this is turning into a debate about which religion is worse?? All organized religion is shit.

Going by your standards, whichever religion has more access to weapons and economic power is more evil. Personally, I think they are all fucked. And I get the feeling Bill Maher feels the same way. Just because he is jewish, doesn't mean he is choosing sides. I would say much more of that movie was about Christianty than Muslim beliefs.

Some of the anti-jew people here really need to settle down. I agree that the state of Isreal is fucked. But blaming Bill Maher for taking sides is downright silly.

who is anti-jew??

anyway, i think he did have a pro Israeli bias in that last 1/2 of the film. the first 1/2 i thought was great and funny. and it's not even that it was pro-Israeli as it seemed anti-muslim and like the jews actually have some claim to that land and they are really crazy. has he thought that maybe a lot of the violence in that region doesn't come from religion as much as reactions to conditions like constant theft of land, shitty treatment, roadblocks, blockades, malnutrition, massacres.....?

Byrnzie · September 2009

Kenny Olav wrote:

That's a very nice view of the goal of religion, and if many more people held that view, the world would be a much nicer place. But I just don't see that as the reality of what religion is. We are all in wonderment (I hope) of the universe and of what life is, and what the soul might be, but religion seeks to make knowns of the unknown. I have no time for that. When I look at the world's religions, I see a lot of good things, but I see a lot of stupid and insane things too. It's those stupid and insane things that give people who have tendencies to act stupidly or insanely a reason to justify their actions. Because wherever religion is the dominant force, it becomes the law. Theocracies have the most awful practices, and the people accept them because it comes from their religion.

I just saw Religulous last night. I thought Bill Maher did a brilliant job. He's so great with people. He treats them with respect but doesn't shy away from his thoughts, and he usually gets people to laugh along with him even if they don't agree. He managed to get interviews with some really interesting people too. I find religion so fascinating. I always have. I grew up going to a conservative evangelical protestant church, but lived in a town full of Catholics. At times, I would go to Catholic mass with my friends (if, say, I slept over one of their houses on a Saturday night) and I remember being freaked out at first by all the stain glass windows and sculptures, but eventually the fact that Catholics were so much more relaxed about their religion, made me like them better than the Protestants who were always asking me questions about Jesus, which I could never answer properly, because I never understood it. Most of my friends are Catholic. There were two boys my age in my church, but I never made friends with them because one was a huge hypocrite and the other was just a freak. So many freaky families there. When I was 13, I had to go to this giant Christian gathering in Indiana for high school kids. Again, I got bombarded with Jesus shit, worse than ever before, and I was stuck there for a whole week with the freak and the hypocrite and thousands like them. That's when I finally got sick of Jesus. It made no fucking sense, and I was going mad trying to make sense of it. Shortly after, I discovered Monty Python and the Holy Grail, and thought "Yes!! There are people out there who also think this is ridiculous!!"

It's not easy to learn to live with not knowing what is out there, and what happens when you die. But once you accept it, it's actually a very liberating feeling.

Very good post.

bootlegger10 · September 2009

Gern Blansten wrote:

yeah but Christianity spawns the murderers of abortionists, etc.

All religion is scary to me

What did we have, one abortion doctor killing in the last 10 years and all of sudden Christianity spawns murderers of abortionists? I bet that murderer ate pasta the week he killed the doctor. This just in: pasta spawns murderer. If Christianity was dangerous and spawned murderers, and if half of the US are Christians, then you would think that more than ONE of the 150 million Christians in the US would have killed an abortion doctor in the last decade.

Think about things before flat out calling a religion scary, when the good that comes from the religion is boundless.

bootlegger10 · September 2009

mca47 wrote:

_outlaw wrote:

if it only takes one breath then how about you guys finally prove your point instead of just tossing around this weak rhetoric.

Since man has been around, how many wars have been caused (at the least) in part because of difference in religious ideology? 80-90% maybe?
What's going on in the middle east right now? Would not be happening if not for religion.

Take any religion and you can find people that have killed, maimed, and persecuted that religion based on other religious beliefs.
Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Jewish, Muslim, Jehovah Witness, Mormon, etc....

You name it, they will fight and kill for their belief. That magic-bean belief to kill is just a fraction of what I'm taking about.

Not only has organized religion caused millions of deaths, but also...

Cessation and of scientific progression. (Ex. stem cell research, others)
Further progression of the spread of disease. The teaching of abstinence is an ineffective and immoral teaching. Not only will people do what they are evolutionarily designed for, but they will do so with or without Jesus. And in fact the belief that condom suppression is a "good idea"...wow...more deaths. Then again science is a bitch.

I can go on and on...

Don't get me wrong, I think having faith can be a wonderful and powerful thing...I just think that the organization of religion has been humankind's biggest downfall in our history.

Are they fighting over religion or power? Did Hitler fight for religion or power? Did Alexander conquer the known world for religion or power? Did Saddam attack Kuwait for religion or power? Did the US attack Iraq for religion or economics. Man's ego, greed, and hatred causes wars, not religion.

bootlegger10 · September 2009

mca47 wrote:

I can go on and on...

Don't get me wrong, I think having faith can be a wonderful and powerful thing...I just think that the organization of religion has been humankind's biggest downfall in our history.

What about greed? You think greed might have anything to do with EVERY FREAKING WAR EVER? No, it can't be. Religion made people bad. All those rapists and murderers in prison went to church every sunday and volunteered on the weekends. Then after years of indoctrination by the church they went out and murdered and raped. Yep, religion caused all of this. Who knew religion created oil for which so many wars are based on in the middle east. Who knew?

bootlegger10 · September 2009

mca47 wrote:

Talk about a "message board beat-down". Oh, and resorting to the bible for what is and isn't right is pretty weak...

What else would a Christian use as evidence besides the Bible? Pretty foolish and weak not to.

What do you use to tell what is wrong and right? This is a answer I am very much interested in. I want to know where the source of right and wrong is (a true right/wrong determination verus this relativity stuff). I don't think you'll have an answer outside of a higher power.

Random_Wookie · September 2009

bootlegger10 wrote:

What else would a Christian use as evidence besides the Bible? Pretty foolish and weak not to.

What do you use to tell what is wrong and right? This is a answer I am very much interested in. I want to know where the source of right and wrong is (a true right/wrong determination verus this relativity stuff). I don't think you'll have an answer outside of a higher power.

it depends on what you mean by right and wrong, if its in the way we interact with other people and the environment arround us then its hard to avoid the higher power influence. Even though I am an athesit and belive in reason and science(which religion has help create).

But i beleive that without religion the world would be a better place, but we would still have wars. Though they would be fought for the actual reason of I want what you had, instead of I because god said so (simplfied i know). I base this assumption on the belif that sociecty would be better without religion, therefore we as individuals would be better. Though the weak would still rule the strong!

Cosmo · September 2009

bootlegger10 wrote:

mca47 wrote:

Talk about a "message board beat-down". Oh, and resorting to the bible for what is and isn't right is pretty weak...

What else would a Christian use as evidence besides the Bible? Pretty foolish and weak not to.

What do you use to tell what is wrong and right? This is a answer I am very much interested in. I want to know where the source of right and wrong is (a true right/wrong determination verus this relativity stuff). I don't think you'll have an answer outside of a higher power.

...
Well... I can't answer for MCA... but, my morality comes from my Humanity. I am part of 'Humankind' and I believe in being both, 'Human' and 'Kind'. It isn't found in a book... or from a pulpit. If you need to get your moral compass from an external source... what is that telling you about yourself?
...
As for the Bible... I'll give you the 'Old Testament' in the form of th Hebrew Text... being pretty much in tact since the Dead Sea Scroll times. But, the New Testament? I guess I have issues because I do not trust the Church of Rome in 600 that cannonized the New Testament had the best intentions for regular folks in mind. I suspect that their power OVER the regular folks were at the forefront.
Also, the Bible was literally in the hands of the church from it's inception in 60 A.D. til the late 1500 when Gutenberg's press made it possible to print copies... mostly for the wealthy.
But, do I think the Bible is the word of God? Nope... not even the Old Testament. I see it as more along the lines of basic law written for a time when tribes needed common laws and code of conduct. Men wrote the Bible from earlier laws... such as the laws of Naram Sin and Hanirabi in ancient Sumeria. Handed down from God? I don't know... I wasn't there, so I cannot say absolutely, either way.
So... yes... I don't think we need religon of any sort to know it is wrong to kill or take what does not belong to us. We only need to be Human.

fuck · September 2009

Random_Wookie wrote:

But i beleive that without religion the world would be a better place, but we would still have wars. Though they would be fought for the actual reason of I want what you had, instead of I because god said so (simplfied i know). I base this assumption on the belif that sociecty would be better without religion, therefore we as individuals would be better. Though the weak would still rule the strong!

Instead of people saying just "wars," can i have examples of wars that were fought because of religion?

fuck · September 2009

Cosmo wrote:

...So... yes... I don't think we need religon of any sort to know it is wrong to kill or take what does not belong to us. We only need to be Human.

how? when evolution and natural selection teaches us things like survival of the fittest, it does not appear to me that mortality even exists without religion. In fact, I believe the only reason most people who don't follow religion don't kill is because of the consequences they would face. however, if we were living in a state of nature where we are not bound by laws created by men, I believe that stealing and killing would obviously play a very big role in most people's lives.

edit: and that's just the wrong actions. even those who are virtuous have no real incentive to be generous or anything other than pure self-interest, hoping that such a favor will be returned to you.

Random_Wookie · September 2009

_outlaw wrote:

Instead of people saying just "wars," can i have examples of wars that were fought because of religion?

i will have to check my facts and get back to you on that one, i remember reading an example in a book i read last year by Christopher Hitchens (God is not great, was the title). could we claim a war of the mind, because how else could you belive creationism/intelegant design? if you where not so brainwashed by religous doctorunie and unwilling to look at the facts against it.

Religulous

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