The Panama Deception

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  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    jlew24asu wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:

    well ... this would explain your position on so many topics

    and this..
    polaris_x wrote:
    america has been "attacking" foreign sovereign countries for years ...

    as well as calling America an "extremist" nation explains your position on so many topics. what the fuck is your point?

    two things:

    1. If you don't understand the root causes of terrorism - there will never be a solution ... if all you see are suicide bombers and beheadings then you are only seeing a part of the story ... all you keep saying is we were attacked therefore the people of afghanistan must suffer ... not only are you not seeing that the people of afghanistand DID NOT wage war on america you are also not looking at what would possess someone to even want to attack america to begin with.

    2. I never said america was an extremist nation - i said america is BECOMING an extremist nation - and i said in that post - you can't have this discussion with people because they automatically get defensive - you got your back up so fast you didn't even read what i actually wrote.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    polaris_x wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:

    well ... this would explain your position on so many topics

    and this..
    polaris_x wrote:
    america has been "attacking" foreign sovereign countries for years ...

    as well as calling America an "extremist" nation explains your position on so many topics. what the fuck is your point?

    two things:

    1. If you don't understand the root causes of terrorism - there will never be a solution ... if all you see are suicide bombers and beheadings then you are only seeing a part of the story ... all you keep saying is we were attacked therefore the people of afghanistan must suffer ... not only are you not seeing that the people of afghanistand DID NOT wage war on america you are also not looking at what would possess someone to even want to attack america to begin with.

    America has enemies. I understand that just fine. so what? would you like me to embrace them and pat them on the head? Afghanistan DID wage war on America. is sad and unfortunate that afgan civilians are caught in the middle. just as sad as the American civilians in WTC being caught in the middle.
    polaris_x wrote:
    2. I never said america was an extremist nation - i said america is BECOMING an extremist nation - and i said in that post - you can't have this discussion with people because they automatically get defensive - you got your back up so fast you didn't even read what i actually wrote.

    I read what you said....and becoming, or is, or wants to be..whatever....its all the same because its completely baseless.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    jlew24asu wrote:
    America has enemies. I understand that just fine. so what? would you like me to embrace them and pat them on the head? Afghanistan DID wage war on America. is sad and unfortunate that afgan civilians are caught in the middle. just as sad as the American civilians in WTC being caught in the middle.

    so what?? ... afghanistan DID NOT wage war against america - america put the taliban in power ... you want to take 14 saudi hijackers and blame it on afghanistan - that's your prerogative but you have no legal nor moral ground to stand on ...
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I read what you said....and becoming, or is, or wants to be..whatever....its all the same because its completely baseless.

    if you say so
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    polaris_x wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    America has enemies. I understand that just fine. so what? would you like me to embrace them and pat them on the head? Afghanistan DID wage war on America. is sad and unfortunate that afgan civilians are caught in the middle. just as sad as the American civilians in WTC being caught in the middle.

    so what?? ... afghanistan DID NOT wage war against america - america put the taliban in power ... you want to take 14 saudi hijackers and blame it on afghanistan - that's your prerogative but you have no legal nor moral ground to stand on ...

    are you another one that has no clue to whats going on? the hijackers nationality is IRRELEVANT. you love to mention Saudi....why? should we have attacked Saudi? I cant imagine why you think its relevant to mention them. the hijackers were part of the el queda network. el queda had safe haven inside Afghanistan. there was NO option, expect to go into Afghanistan and destroy those who wanted to destroy us.

    jlew24asu wrote:
    I read what you said....and becoming, or is, or wants to be..whatever....its all the same because its completely baseless.
    polaris_x wrote:
    if you say so


    no no, you're right. we are becoming an extremist nation, why? because you say so.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    jlew24asu wrote:
    are you another one that has no clue to whats going on? the hijackers nationality is IRRELEVANT. you love to mention Saudi....why? should we have attacked Saudi? I cant imagine why you think its relevant to mention them. the hijackers were part of the el queda network. el queda had safe haven inside Afghanistan. there was NO option, expect to go into Afghanistan and destroy those who wanted to destroy us.

    1. al qaeda has bases everywhere - not just afghanistan - justice is about making people pay for their crimes
    2. all you have destroyed is the lives of many civilians - al qaeda is just as strong, so strong that they were able to show up in iraq when america decided to invade iraq.
    3. the taliban are still alive and strong ... even the puppet regime put in there has now got to negotiate with taliban and warlords.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    polaris_x wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    are you another one that has no clue to whats going on? the hijackers nationality is IRRELEVANT. you love to mention Saudi....why? should we have attacked Saudi? I cant imagine why you think its relevant to mention them. the hijackers were part of the el queda network. el queda had safe haven inside Afghanistan. there was NO option, expect to go into Afghanistan and destroy those who wanted to destroy us.

    1. al qaeda has bases everywhere - not just afghanistan - justice is about making people pay for their crimes

    o yea? like where? where was Osama bin Laden and all of his leadership on 9/11? where were the vast majority of training camps? I cant wait for this one.
    polaris_x wrote:
    2. all you have destroyed is the lives of many civilians - al qaeda is just as strong, so strong that they were able to show up in iraq when america decided to invade iraq.
    3. the taliban are still alive and strong ... even the puppet regime put in there has now got to negotiate with taliban and warlords.

    those fuckers sure are resilient arent they? el queda is not "just as strong". they are all but nonexistent in a centrally organized sense. even in Iraq. and the taliban, yea, those assholes sure do a great job of blending in with civilians and hiding. hopefully Pakistan finishes them off.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    jlew24asu wrote:
    o yea? like where? where was Osama bin Laden and all of his leadership on 9/11? where were the vast majority of training camps? I cant wait for this one.

    sure there were camps in afghanistan but also pakistan - why didn't you guys attack pakistan?
    jlew24asu wrote:
    those fuckers sure are resilient arent they? el queda is not "just as strong". they are all but nonexistent in a centrally organized sense. even in Iraq. and the taliban, yea, those assholes sure do a great job of blending in with civilians and hiding. hopefully Pakistan finishes them off.

    then why the heck are ya still in iraq and afghanistan?
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    polaris_x wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    o yea? like where? where was Osama bin Laden and all of his leadership on 9/11? where were the vast majority of training camps? I cant wait for this one.

    sure there were camps in afghanistan but also pakistan - why didn't you guys attack pakistan?

    because the vast majority of training camps, as well as OBL and his leadership, were in Afghanistan. and the area of Pakistan you are referring to is only loosely consider Pakistan. its a lawless area that the Pakistani government cant get to. for America to "invade" that area is almost logistically impossible. which is why we attack the area with unmaned drones.

    so where else is on your hit list?
    jlew24asu wrote:
    those fuckers sure are resilient arent they? el queda is not "just as strong". they are all but nonexistent in a centrally organized sense. even in Iraq. and the taliban, yea, those assholes sure do a great job of blending in with civilians and hiding. hopefully Pakistan finishes them off.
    polaris_x wrote:
    then why the heck are ya still in iraq and afghanistan?

    to maintain security and nation build. thankfully a withdrawal date is set for Iraq. Afghanistan is different. we are fighting a ghost. an enemy to hides in civilian clothes. the outcome of the current civil war in Pakistan will have large impact on what happens in Afganistan, IMO.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    jlew24asu wrote:
    because the vast majority of training camps, as well as OBL and his leadership, were in Afghanistan. and the area of Pakistan you are referring to is only loosely consider Pakistan. its a lawless area that the Pakistani government cant get to. for America to "invade" that area is almost logistically impossible. which is why we attack the area with unmaned drones.

    so where else is on your hit list?

    but you didn't attack just the training camps ... you attacked almost all of afghanistan to take out the taliban ... like you say - these "terrorists" operate in cells all over the world ... in any case - it's taking away from my primary point which is if you don't understand why anyone would want to attack america - you'll never have peace ...
    jlew24asu wrote:
    to maintain security and nation build. thankfully a withdrawal date is set for Iraq. Afghanistan is different. we are fighting a ghost. an enemy to hides in civilian clothes. the outcome of the current civil war in Pakistan will have large impact on what happens in Afganistan, IMO.

    there "successes" in afghanistan are far outweighed by the "failures" ... bin laden released another tape today - things are going hunky dory for that organization - meanwhile millions of innocent people are dead and america continues to spend a gazillion dollars on war while people lose their jobs and homes ...
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    polaris_x wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    because the vast majority of training camps, as well as OBL and his leadership, were in Afghanistan. and the area of Pakistan you are referring to is only loosely consider Pakistan. its a lawless area that the Pakistani government cant get to. for America to "invade" that area is almost logistically impossible. which is why we attack the area with unmaned drones.

    so where else is on your hit list?

    but you didn't attack just the training camps ... you attacked almost all of afghanistan to take out the taliban ... like you say - these "terrorists" operate in cells all over the world ... in any case - it's taking away from my primary point which is if you don't understand why anyone would want to attack america - you'll never have peace ...

    thats right. the Taliban needed to be removed from power as well. why? so they can not continue to allow groups like el queda to thrive.

    and I already said that I understand America has enemies. and achieving so called peace isn't as cut and dry as you think. I do however we are much more on that path now, then we were under Bush.
    jlew24asu wrote:
    to maintain security and nation build. thankfully a withdrawal date is set for Iraq. Afghanistan is different. we are fighting a ghost. an enemy to hides in civilian clothes. the outcome of the current civil war in Pakistan will have large impact on what happens in Afganistan, IMO.
    polaris_x wrote:
    there "successes" in afghanistan are far outweighed by the "failures" ... bin laden released another tape today - things are going hunky dory for that organization - meanwhile millions of innocent people are dead and america continues to spend a gazillion dollars on war while people lose their jobs and homes ...

    I agree it hasnt been easy and ideally, I'd love for both wars to be over.. but things are definitely not going hunky dory for them. especially compared to summer 2001 for example.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    jlew24asu wrote:
    we didnt have time to present them with everything they required, have them analyze it, and have us wait for them to accept it or not. war had already started.

    Bullshit.
    jlew24asu wrote:
    your so called evidence doesn't prove anything



    The evidence proves that the U.S government and neo-cons had been planning a war in Afghanistan for years prior to 9/11/ - http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/nov20 ... -n20.shtml -

    This is like debating with a member of the flat Earth society.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Byrnzie wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    we didnt have time to present them with everything they required, have them analyze it, and have us wait for them to accept it or not. war had already started.

    Bullshit.

    excellent and very typical comeback. what a joke
    jlew24asu wrote:
    your so called evidence doesn't prove anything

    Byrnzie wrote:
    The evidence proves that the U.S government and neo-cons had been planning a war in Afghanistan for years prior to 9/11/ - http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/nov20 ... -n20.shtml -

    This is like debating with a member of the flat Earth society.

    this is your holy grail? your PROOF? world socialist website. this is one op ed piece by some random asshole internet writer that sourced NOTHING. bravo. sorry, you're going to have to do better then that
  • force-10
    force-10 Posts: 794
    No matter whatever is posted here, the US keeps infiltrating, influincing, and in worst cases, going to war in foreign territories.

    It´s a fact.

    I respect the us army for going to war against hitler, but ever since almost everything they´ve done is one big pile of shit, especially Iraq and Vietnam. And what they´ve done in latin america is history. And you can´t deny history. What´s done is done, but continuing to do it is what earns usa more enemies (threatening and non-threatening).

    The romans, english, ..... every power in history has ended. And people will still live in this world.
    IN THE DARK, ALL CATS ARE BLACK.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    jlew24asu wrote:
    and I already said that I understand America has enemies. and achieving so called peace isn't as cut and dry as you think. I do however we are much more on that path now, then we were under Bush.

    it's about WHY you have enemies
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    polaris_x wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    and I already said that I understand America has enemies. and achieving so called peace isn't as cut and dry as you think. I do however we are much more on that path now, then we were under Bush.

    it's about WHY you have enemies

    I understand the why. and there will always be a why, even when we fix it. like just today, Obama is in the middle east...... "Obama calls for new beginning between US, Muslims"...we'll still have enemies.

    like you buddy Osama. he wants to kill us because "we" are fighting Islamic law in Pakistan.

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... n.message/

    actually Pakistan is fighting them. why doesnt OBL focus his hatred towards them? and is the brutal Islamic law that he wants perfectly ok to allow?
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    jlew24asu wrote:
    this is your holy grail? your PROOF? world socialist website. this is one op ed piece by some random asshole internet writer that sourced NOTHING. bravo. sorry, you're going to have to do better then that

    So you got as far as reading the title and the webpage address? Well done.

    Nevermind the fact that his sources were: '...Insider accounts published in the British, French and Indian media...'Newsweek'...'Jane’s International Security'...the 'Washington Post'...an account published[..]in the Wall Street Journal, written by Robert McFarlane, former national security adviser in the Reagan administration...The BBC...The Guardian newspaper...[and]a book [..]entitled Bin Laden, the Forbidden Truth, written by Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie. Brisard is a former French secret service agent, author of a previous report on bin Laden’s Al Qaeda network, and former director of strategy for the French corporation Vivendi, while Dasquie is an investigative journalist.
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    jlew24asu wrote:
    catefrances wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    war was brought to our shores. many Americans saw it first hand. thousands of New Yorkers watched 250 people jump to their death from WTC alone. bodies in the street dying. that said, the war in Afghanistan is justified...in Iraq, not so much..and there are very loud anti voices being heard. and thankfully, today we have a withdrawal date set.

    no one supports war unless we are attacked. and thats what happened.


    how about not at all.

    you think the events of 9/11 was a war???

    yes absolutely. you dont?

    clearly i dont.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    catefrances wrote:


    clearly i dont.

    how is 9/11 NOT an act of war? what do you consider it?
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    jlew24asu wrote:
    catefrances wrote:


    clearly i dont.

    how is 9/11 NOT an act of war? what do you consider it?

    an act of terrorism. all of which do not become the impetus for war. nor do i consdier them necessarily an act of war.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    catefrances wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    catefrances wrote:


    clearly i dont.

    how is 9/11 NOT an act of war? what do you consider it?

    an act of terrorism. all of which do not become the impetus for war.


    wow you are amazingly confused. an act of terrorism is an act of war. ESPECIALLY considering the size and scale of the act itself on 9/11

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