US breaking laws to torture

245

Comments

  • Posts: 10,118
    Commy wrote:
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    that's the thing, its not gray at all.


    its completely illegal according to international law.

    it not like anyone can stop us if we decide to ignoreit, but if we violate a law it sets a precedent for other countries to do the same.

    If we do it, maybe 5 years from now 2 countries in Africa might go at it...and they could both torture their pow's with the excuse "the US does it".

    not to mention the morality of it all.

    yea I agree with this too, hence the gray area.

    I'm only speaking hypothetically.....IF an el queda member has information regarding an imminent attack, I cant fault the US for using "enhanced interrogations"
  • Posts: 10,118
    Commy wrote:
    show previous quotes
    yeah, and don't you think if the Bush admin had this proof that torture saved a bunch of lives, that it would have been all over the front page of every newspaper around the country?

    it would have been de-classified the next day.

    no. we cant just announce to the enemy what works and what doesnt.
  • Posts: 4,984
    jlew24asu wrote:
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    and the people (US Soldiers) in those pictures are in jail now.
    not the guys who gave the orders.
  • Posts: 10,118
    Commy wrote:
    show previous quotes
    not the guys who gave the orders.

    like who? Bush?

    I will concede however that harsher punishments should have been given to the commanding officers and soldiers in the photos.

    those were not orders, they were just being sadistic.
  • Posts: 4,984
    jlew24asu wrote:

    there wasn't any orders given. the soldiers acted independently and were punished accordingly. although I think most should have received harsher punishments.
    i don't think so.


    i've seen interviews with everyone involved, except the main douchebag, he's not allowed to give interviews these days.

    without exception they had the same story regarding those crimes. they said he one day started acting very specifically regarding the prisoners, taking their cloths off, stacking them, beating them, putting dogs on them...like he had a plan all along, like he was following orders.

    maybe he just one day decided to be a sadistic douche bag i don't know, but it sounded to me that orders orders were given, that Granger was acting on instructions. but we can't know that, because the one guy that received those orders is not allowed to talk.
  • Posts: 11,175
    Oh no the horror!!!, people were made to take off their clothes and stack up. Give me a break. That stuff is not torture, that is simply humiliating them. While it is pretty stupid to do it should in no way be compared to waterboarding KSM. You want to prosecute Bush for what happened in some Iraq prison? Well it isn't going to happen, get over it. I think we all can agree that Bush was less than desired, but Obama's policies are not doing anything to keep us safer. If anything Bush should be thanked for the job he did on al-qaeda. I'm not excusing him for Iraq.

    If anyone on here would rather their entire family be killed because we failed to get info from some al-qaeda scumbag (KSM) because we wouldn't use methods to extract that info, raise your hand.
  • Posts: 4,984
    yeah, you know a guy was killed at abu ghraib right?

    there's pictures of a bloody cell, and drag marks coming out of the cell.

    conveniently not anywhere to be found right not.


    sleep depravation is torture
    hunger is torture
    chaining someone to a bed for 14 hours is torture.
    kicking someones ass with a baton and fists and kicks is torture




    besides, by your logic the police should be allowed to torture americans to gather intel. more americans die by american hands than by foreign enemies-so we should start torturing americans right? someone, somewhere in the US is probably plotting to kill americans :o start cracking skulls.

    your avatar suggests you would agree with all of this, rather than be defending the 1 party foreign policy the US has.
  • Posts: 2,330
    You're very quick to discount such things, but let's be honest, if US or the side you deem as "good" had this happening to their solidiers, would you find it acceptable?

    And lastly, the whole notion that there's one person holding all the details of some master plan and in order for us to obtain it, we must break his will via torture is absolutely ignorant and far from reality. 99.9% of the people we captured and were doing god knows what to, were low level no-bodys. The only thing we even got out of any of the higher level captures were details about WHAT THEY ALREADY DID. People who think otherwise seriously watch too much tv, movies and believe we need some Jack Bauer type saving the world. Some sad news though... it's fantasy, not reality.
    JB811 wrote:
    Oh no the horror!!!, people were made to take off their clothes and stack up. Give me a
    break. That stuff is not torture, that is simply humiliating them. While it is pretty stupid to do it should in no way be compared to waterboarding KSM. You want to prosecute Bush for what happened in some Iraq prison? Well it isn't going to happen, get over it. I think we all can agree that Bush was less than desired, but Obama's policies are not doing anything to keep us safer. If anything Bush should be thanked for the job he did on al-qaeda. I'm not excusing him for Iraq.

    If anyone on here would rather their entire family be killed because we failed to get info from some al-qaeda scumbag (KSM) because we wouldn't use methods to extract that info, raise your hand.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • Posts: 11,175
    So would you two rather your entire family be killed than have some al-qaeda dirtbag getting waterboarded so we could have the information to save your friends and family?
  • Posts: 11,175
    Commy wrote:
    your avatar suggests you would agree with all of this, rather than be defending the 1 party foreign policy the US has.

    You miss the point entirely.
  • Posts: 13,559
    Commy wrote:
    show previous quotes
    not the guys who gave the orders.

    i heard a bone-chillin' interview with a former brigadier-general who was in charge of detention centres - she said abu ghraib was always supposed to be temporary and that it was until rumsfeld showed up that the torture started ... they had private contractors do a lot of the work ... she says those people in the pictures were only doing what they were told and approved ... the so called chain of command went right up to the very top and those fockers are the ones that really need to goto jail ...
  • Posts: 2,330
    This is an irrelevant question because there's never, ever been a scenario baring movies and tv where such an encounter was before us.

    And just to prove my point, if that's the rationale you want to employ, perhaps you should ask this question to most of the Bush administration who completely ignored dozens of high-level intellegence warnings in the months before 9-11. We had the outlined information that a large attack was coming and did nothing to try to stop it or allievate it. That's 100% fact and there's no arguement about it. So perhaps you should put your own scenario in question to reality and actual practice compared some illusionary idea of how we'll get some last minute savior to stop an attack via torture or similar.
    JB811 wrote:
    So would you two rather your entire family be killed than have some al-qaeda dirtbag getting
    waterboarded so we could have the information to save your friends and family?
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • Posts: 11,175
    It is a simple question, yes or no will do.
  • Posts: 4,984
    JB811 wrote:
    show previous quotes

    You miss the point entirely.
    i don't think i did.
  • Posts: 13,559
    JB811 wrote:
    So would you two rather your entire family be killed than have some al-qaeda dirtbag getting waterboarded so we could have the information to save your friends and family?

    one can make hypotheticals to suit an agenda - this question is neither grounded in any reality nor meant to address the issue at hand ...

    i could make up a bunch of hypothetical situations that involve the lives of your friends and family and you too will think it's ridiculous ...
  • Posts: 2,330
    A simple question which isn't realistic and making simplicity over a complex situation. It doesn't warrant an answer because both the question and any response are in fantasy, not reality.

    Torture is wrong under all circumstances and if you think I'm wrong, ask yourself if you'd think it'd be ok for enemies to torture American solidiers?
    JB811 wrote:
    It is a simple question, yes or no will do.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • Posts: 4,984
    JB811 wrote:
    It is a simple question, yes or no will do.
    its a loaded question.



    you have to agree with the premise to even answer it, which few people do.
  • Posts: 10,118
    Commy wrote:
    show previous quotes
    i don't think so.


    i've seen interviews with everyone involved, except the main douchebag, he's not allowed to give interviews these days.

    without exception they had the same story regarding those crimes. they said he one day started acting very specifically regarding the prisoners, taking their cloths off, stacking them, beating them, putting dogs on them...like he had a plan all along, like he was following orders.

    maybe he just one day decided to be a sadistic douche bag i don't know, but it sounded to me that orders orders were given, that Granger was acting on instructions. but we can't know that, because the one guy that received those orders is not allowed to talk.

    I'm not defending Abu Graib at all. I will probably agree with anything you say regarding this jail.

    I can understand enhanced interrogations under very specific circumstances. THATS ALL.
  • Posts: 44,418
    jlew24asu wrote:
    show previous quotes

    I'm not defending Abu Graib at all. I will probably agree with anything you say regarding this jail.

    I can understand enhanced interrogations under very specific circumstances. THATS ALL.
    What or more specifically WHO would determine , under what circumstances "enhanced interrogations" should occur? What is the standard?
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  • Posts: 2,929
    FiveB247x wrote:
    This is an irrelevant question because there's never, ever been a scenario baring movies and tv where such an encounter was before us.

    And just to prove my point, if that's the rationale you want to employ, perhaps you should ask this question to most of the Bush administration who completely ignored dozens of high-level intellegence warnings in the months before 9-11. We had the outlined information that a large attack was coming and did nothing to try to stop it or allievate it. That's 100% fact and there's no arguement about it. So perhaps you should put your own scenario in question to reality and actual practice compared some illusionary idea of how we'll get some last minute savior to stop an attack via torture or similar.
    show previous quotes

    It's not Irrelevant b/c it did happen with khalid sheikh mohamed we got valuable Intel that did stop further attacks and broke up cells. and you can go back all the way to the Clinton administration as far as ignoring Intel. There were guys already here learning to fly airplanes 2 years before 911 even happened.

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