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Who are the real fascists?
ledvedderman
Posts: 7,755
WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush in recent days has recast the global war on terror into a "war against Islamic fascism." Fascism, in fact, seems to be the new buzz word for Republicans in an election season dominated by an unpopular war in Iraq.
Bush used the term earlier this month in talking about the arrest of suspected terrorists in Britain, and spoke of "Islamic fascists" in a later speech in Green Bay, Wisconsin. Spokesman Tony Snow has used variations on the phrase at White House press briefings.
Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pennsylvania, in a tough re-election fight, drew parallels on Monday between World War II and the current war against "Islamic fascism," saying they both require fighting a common foe in multiple countries. It's a phrase Santorum has been using for months.
And Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld on Tuesday took it a step further in a speech to an American Legion convention in Salt Lake City, accusing critics of the administration's Iraq and anti-terrorism policies of trying to appease "a new type of fascism." (Full story)
White House aides and outside Republican strategists said the new description is an attempt to more clearly identify the ideology that motivates many organized terrorist groups, representing a shift in emphasis from the general to the specific.
"I think it's an appropriate definition of the war that we're in," said GOP pollster Ed Goeas. "I think it's effective in that it definitively defines the enemy in a way that we can't because they're not in uniforms."
The right term?
But Muslim groups have cried foul. Bush's use of the phrase "contributes to a rising level of hostility to Islam and the American-Muslim community," complained Parvez Ahmed, chairman of the Council on American-Islamic Relations.
Conservative commentators have long talked about "Islamo-fascism," and Bush's phrase was a slightly toned-down variation on that theme.
Dennis Ross, a Mideast adviser to both the first Bush and Clinton administrations and now the director of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, said he would have chosen different words.
"The `war on terror' has always been a misnomer, because terrorism is an instrument, it's not an ideology. So I would always have preferred it to be called the `war with radical Islam,' not with Islam but with `radical Islam,"' Ross said.
Why even mention the religion? "Because that's who they are," Ross said. "Fascism had a certain definition. Whether they meet this or not, one thing is clear: They're radical. They represent a completely radical and intolerant interpretation of Islam."
While "fascism" once referred to the rigid nationalistic one-party dictatorship first instituted in Italy, it has "been used very loosely in all kinds of ways for a long time," said Wayne Fields, a specialist in presidential rhetoric at Washington University in St. Louis.
"Typically, the Bush administration finds its vocabulary someplace in the middle ground of popular culture. It seems to me that they're trying to find something that resonates, without any effort to really define what they mean," Fields said.
Memories of World War II
Pollster Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center, said the "fascist" label may evoke comparisons to World War II and remind Americans of the lack of personal freedoms in fundamentalist countries. "But this could only affect public opinion on the margins," he said.
"Having called these people `evildoers,' fascism is just a new wrinkle," he said.
The tactic recalled the first President Bush's 1990 likening of Iraq's Saddam Hussein to Adolf Hitler.
"I caught hell on this comparison of Saddam to Hitler, with critics accusing me of personalizing the crisis, but I still feel it was an appropriate one," the elder Bush later wrote in a memoir.
It was one of the few times the younger Bush has followed his father's path on Iraq.
Charles Black, a longtime GOP consultant with close ties to both the first Bush administration and the current White House, said branding Islamic extremists as fascists is apt.
"It helps dramatize what we're up against. They are not just some ragtag terrorists. They are people with a plan to take over the world and eliminate everybody except them," Black said.
Stephen J. Wayne, a professor of government at Georgetown University, suggested White House strategists "probably had a focus group and they found the word `fascist.'
"Most people are against fascists of whatever form. By definition, fascists are bad. If you're going to demonize, you might as well use the toughest words you can," Wayne said.
After all, the hard-line Iranian newspaper Jomhuri Eskami did just that in an editorial last week blasting Bush's "Islamic fascism" phrase. It called Bush a "21st century Hitler" and British Prime Minister Tony Blair a "21st century Mussolini."
======================================================================
However, here is something else I have read...
Fourteen Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
Bush used the term earlier this month in talking about the arrest of suspected terrorists in Britain, and spoke of "Islamic fascists" in a later speech in Green Bay, Wisconsin. Spokesman Tony Snow has used variations on the phrase at White House press briefings.
Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pennsylvania, in a tough re-election fight, drew parallels on Monday between World War II and the current war against "Islamic fascism," saying they both require fighting a common foe in multiple countries. It's a phrase Santorum has been using for months.
And Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld on Tuesday took it a step further in a speech to an American Legion convention in Salt Lake City, accusing critics of the administration's Iraq and anti-terrorism policies of trying to appease "a new type of fascism." (Full story)
White House aides and outside Republican strategists said the new description is an attempt to more clearly identify the ideology that motivates many organized terrorist groups, representing a shift in emphasis from the general to the specific.
"I think it's an appropriate definition of the war that we're in," said GOP pollster Ed Goeas. "I think it's effective in that it definitively defines the enemy in a way that we can't because they're not in uniforms."
The right term?
But Muslim groups have cried foul. Bush's use of the phrase "contributes to a rising level of hostility to Islam and the American-Muslim community," complained Parvez Ahmed, chairman of the Council on American-Islamic Relations.
Conservative commentators have long talked about "Islamo-fascism," and Bush's phrase was a slightly toned-down variation on that theme.
Dennis Ross, a Mideast adviser to both the first Bush and Clinton administrations and now the director of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, said he would have chosen different words.
"The `war on terror' has always been a misnomer, because terrorism is an instrument, it's not an ideology. So I would always have preferred it to be called the `war with radical Islam,' not with Islam but with `radical Islam,"' Ross said.
Why even mention the religion? "Because that's who they are," Ross said. "Fascism had a certain definition. Whether they meet this or not, one thing is clear: They're radical. They represent a completely radical and intolerant interpretation of Islam."
While "fascism" once referred to the rigid nationalistic one-party dictatorship first instituted in Italy, it has "been used very loosely in all kinds of ways for a long time," said Wayne Fields, a specialist in presidential rhetoric at Washington University in St. Louis.
"Typically, the Bush administration finds its vocabulary someplace in the middle ground of popular culture. It seems to me that they're trying to find something that resonates, without any effort to really define what they mean," Fields said.
Memories of World War II
Pollster Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center, said the "fascist" label may evoke comparisons to World War II and remind Americans of the lack of personal freedoms in fundamentalist countries. "But this could only affect public opinion on the margins," he said.
"Having called these people `evildoers,' fascism is just a new wrinkle," he said.
The tactic recalled the first President Bush's 1990 likening of Iraq's Saddam Hussein to Adolf Hitler.
"I caught hell on this comparison of Saddam to Hitler, with critics accusing me of personalizing the crisis, but I still feel it was an appropriate one," the elder Bush later wrote in a memoir.
It was one of the few times the younger Bush has followed his father's path on Iraq.
Charles Black, a longtime GOP consultant with close ties to both the first Bush administration and the current White House, said branding Islamic extremists as fascists is apt.
"It helps dramatize what we're up against. They are not just some ragtag terrorists. They are people with a plan to take over the world and eliminate everybody except them," Black said.
Stephen J. Wayne, a professor of government at Georgetown University, suggested White House strategists "probably had a focus group and they found the word `fascist.'
"Most people are against fascists of whatever form. By definition, fascists are bad. If you're going to demonize, you might as well use the toughest words you can," Wayne said.
After all, the hard-line Iranian newspaper Jomhuri Eskami did just that in an editorial last week blasting Bush's "Islamic fascism" phrase. It called Bush a "21st century Hitler" and British Prime Minister Tony Blair a "21st century Mussolini."
======================================================================
However, here is something else I have read...
Fourteen Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
growth of private power to the point where it becomes stronger than
the democratic state itself. That in its essence is fascism —
ownership of government by an individual, by a group or any
controlling private power.":
President Franklin D. Roosevelt
Great post man, one of my favorite FDR quotes.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
EDIT: Let's not pretend, however, that the US Government is more infected with fascism than Radical Islam. It is far less infected. Islamic extremist organizations and the typical political groups that stem from them are far more guilty of the items listed along with many items that are not on the list but should be. Not to defend the US Government here but let's get some perspective....in the context of fascism the US Government is the lesser of the two fascists.
Pretty much ... Although one can draw some parallels in both cases, with the Islamic extremists coming closer to the real definition of fascism.
Agreed. I actually edited my post to include that caveat. To declare both sides equal in the context of fascism is like comparing Saddam Hussein to Hitler. While similarities exist, there are vast differences.
Exactly. The point of my thread was not to say that the U.S. is a fascist regime, but more that there are obvious signs of it. To me that is scary enough. I thought it was funny that the administration is throwing the word around so much when in fact, there are signs of them being a fascists
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
Certainly, but none of these things are new. There have been pronounced fascist elements in US government for the past 100 years if not longer. It's worse now than it was in 1995, but it's not worse than it was in 1945 or at other times in American history.
I agree with you in most part, but a truly credible case can be made for labeling the recent Islamic movement as being fascist. I think the most telling symptom is that the whole impetus for their government is to subjugate people into Islamic nationalism in strict accordance to a fundamentalist view of a holy book.
On the other hand, the U.S. is a democracy. Now, surely there is too much corporate interest in our government, and our bureaucracy is filled with corruption and stupid leaders. But none-the-less, our citizens are protected from our government by a constitution and separate government branches.
Our governemnt exist to provide freedom of choice for it's citizens. The government of the Taliban, Iran and other Islamic governements exist to take their citizens' freedoms away...
Of course. We also have similar practices, however. Moral legislation is not foreign to us. We simply do it on a smaller scale. Abuse of government is not foreign to us and democracy is not always foreign to them. That said, their governments are typically far more repressive and less transparent than ours.
That one I don't really agree with but that's a totally different argument. Regardless, however, your point remains valid: in the context of freedom our government is much more likely to be tolerant.
I think the ultimate issue here is probably just the inherent hypocrisy of the US Government calling people fascists. Even when an occassional fascist calls a common fascist a fascist, it's still a pot/kettle situation.
Maybe I am mistaken, but wasn't Irans Prime Minister democratically elected?
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
Yes, he was elected, but elections in an Islamic theocracy probably do not merit the term "democratic".
Iran's elections are democratic. Iran's government is not.
EDIT: Iran's voting is democratic. Iran's government is not.
sounds familliar
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
Obviously the democratic approach in the U.S. has problems ... Every system of government does. But comparing it to Iran is a bit of a stretch.
Let me know when the US has a non-elected absolute ruler with no term limits and no check on his power and no ability to be removed from office short of full-on revolution.
Then it will sound familiar.
Ask an Iranian. It certainly appeared democtratic didn't it?
But um, really all the candidates where chosen by the mullahs and nobody voted for them.
Iranians I know say their country has been hijacked. (My brother is married to an Iranian.)
So then, back on topic (IEs = Islamic Extremists):
Fascism = rigid one-party control = IEs yes / US debateable, leaning no
Fascism = forcible suppression of opposition = IEs yes / US no
Fascism = private enterprise under centralized govt control = IEs yes / US no
Fascism = beligerent nationalsim = IEs yes / US oh yeah
Fascism = racism = IEs yes / US nope
Fascism = militarism = IEs yes / US yap
Islamic Extermists 6/6
United States 2/6
But of course this posits what the IEs would envision, cause they ain't got it yet, versus what we really have in the US (and sure I'll agree some would like to envision fascism here....)
USA might not be a fascist state, but George Bush sure rule like a fascist leader.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Its a huge trend because Iran has put itself square in the spotlight, with all the posturing and bluster. They didn't pull Iran's name out of a hat and declare it fascist enemy of the month.
Sure, i won't defend Iran, but Iran is no different than many other country on this dirty planet, this Iran president probably love the attention he gets. To me he's just a radical right wing freak, and he's not alone on this planet. He's not worth all the attention he gets.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Well, I can agree with your last point, for sure. The man gets more media exposure than he deserves.
You can chalk that up to our irresponsible world media.... they play one side against the other, with no regard.
It's like, Bush says this! Amdenijad says that! Let's have a fight! There're terrible. Fucking manipulating pictures!!!! Give me a break...
The best post you've ever produced.
Excellent job. [stands up and applauds]
Non elected leader...check
No check on his power- check, at least not until November of this year if the Democratic Tsunami hits D.C. (thanks Leo)
I think that by the 14 points in my original post that there are small trickles of every one in America today, but I would not say we are a fascist state
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
So it's like, security in place of liberty, and I am above the law and that kind of attitude in power. I've seen little indication that Iran doesn't consider it's people. All I've seen of Iran lately is the desire to enrich uranium, which it claims is for nuclear power, which will ultimately help it's people.
I've never once seen the President say "wipe Israel off the map" that is twisting what he has said. He has said "eliminate the Zionist regime" which isn't much different than what the USA did in Iraq. Ahmenijad (sp?) was an elected leader, thus he is not a dictator either. Way to expand a serious label such as fascism to all your enemies.
Um, I am pretty sure that the "wipe off the map" thing is an exact quote. And if all you've seen from Iran is an innocent desire to help its people, then your observational skills need serious work.
:rolleyes:
Please don't pretend that the 2000/2004 election controversy equates to "non-elected leader" in the same way that an imposed absolute ruler equates to "non-elected leader".
Ok, so there is a check on his power? Not to mention Congress and the Constitution.
There are "small trickles" of every one in every nation today. The "small trickles" in Iran are full-on rivers and their population is drowning.
Well that's the kind of response I'd expect from you. Didn't you post the quote before and it was "Eliminate the Zionist regime"
I don't suppose you would be able to post it now. I highly doubt you'd find a video or audio recording of it. Just a headline.