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Israel And Jerusalem 'facts'
WindNoSail
Posts: 580
I put 'FACTS' in quotes cause if anyone has knowledge of history that contradicts any statment below, please respond. It is important to end up with facts that can be verified.
I think any person serious about understanding the world we live in without hyperbola should consider the following:
ISRAEL AND JERUSALEM FACTS
1. ISRAEL BECAME A STATE IN 1312 B.C., TWO MILLENNIA BEFORE ISLAM;
2. ARAB REFUGEES FROM ISRAEL BEGAN CALLING THEMSELVES "PALESTINIANS" IN 1967, TWO DECADES AFTER (MODERN) ISRAELI STATEHOOD;
3. AFTER CONQUERING THE LAND IN 1272 B.C., JEWS RULED IT FOR A THOUSAND YEARS AND MAINTAINED A CONTINUOUS PRESENCE THERE FOR 3,300 YEARS;
4. THE ONLY ARAB RULE FOLLOWING CONQUEST IN 633 A.D. LASTED JUST 22 YEARS;
5. FOR OVER 3,300 YEARS, JERUSALEM WAS THE JEWISH CAPITAL. IT WAS NEVER THE CAPITAL OF ANY ARAB OR MUSLIM ENTITY. EVEN UNDER JORDANIAN RULE, (EAST) JERUSALEM WAS NOT MADE THE CAPITAL, AND NO ARAB LEADER CAME TO VISIT IT;
6. JERUSALEM IS MENTIONED OVER 700 TIMES IN THE BIBLE, BUT NOT ONCE IS IT MENTIONED IN THE QUR'AN;
7. KING DAVID FOUNDED JERUSALEM; MOHAMMED NEVER SET FOOT IN IT;
8. JEWS PRAY FACING JERUSALEM; MUSLIMS FACE MECCA. IF THEY ARE BETWEEN THE TWO CITIES, MUSLIMS PRAY FACING MECCA, WITH THEIR BACKS TO JERUSALEM;
9. IN 1948, ARAB LEADERS URGED THEIR PEOPLE TO LEAVE, PROMISING TO CLEANSE THE LAND OF JEWISH PRESENCE. 68% OF THEM FLED WITHOUT EVER SETTING EYES ON AN ISRAELI SOLDIER;
10. VIRTUALLY THE ENTIRE JEWISH POPULATION OF MUSLIM COUNTRIES HAD TO FLEE AS THE RESULT OF VIOLENCE AND POGROMS;
11. SOME 630,000 ARABS LEFT ISRAEL IN 1948, WHILE CLOSE TO A MILLION JEWS WERE FORCED TO LEAVE THE MUSLIM COUNTRIES;
12. IN SPITE OF THE VAST TERRITORIES AT THEIR DISPOSAL, ARAB REFUGESS WERE DELIBERATELY PREVENTED FROM ASSIMILATING INTO THEIR HOST COUNTRIES. OF 100 MILLION REFUGEES FOLLOWING WORLD WAR 2, THEY ARE THE ONLY GROUP TO HAVE NEVER INTEGRATED WITH THEIR CORELIGIONISTS. MOST OF THE JEWISH REFUGEES FROM EUROPE AND ARAB LANDS WERE SETTLED IN ISRAEL, A COUNTRY NO LARGER THAN NEW JERSEY;
13. THERE ARE 22 MUSLIM COUNTRIES, NOT COUNTING PALESTINE. THERE IS ONLY ONE JEWISH STATE. ARABS STARTED ALL FIVE WARS AGAINST ISRAEL, AND LOST EVERY ONE OF THEM;
14. FATAH AND HAMAS CONSTITUTIONS STILL CALL FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL. ISRAEL CEDED MOST OF THE WEST BANK AND ALL OF GAZA TO THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, AND EVEN PROVIDED IT WITH ARMS;
15. DURING THE JORDANIAN OCCUPATION, JEWISH HOLY SITES WERE VANDALIZED AND WERE OFF LIMITS TO JEWS. UNDER ISRAELI RULE, ALL MUSLIM AND CHRISTIAN HOLY SITES ARE ACCESSIBLE TO ALL FAITHS;
16. OUT OF 175 UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS UP TO 1990, 97 WERE AGAINST ISRAEL; OUT OF 690 GENERAL ASSEMBLY RESOLUTIONS, 429 WERE AGAINST ISRAEL;
17. THE U.N. WAS SILENT WHEN THE JORDANIANS DESTROYED 58 SYNAGOGUES IN THE OLD CITY OF JERUSALEM. IT REMAINED SILENT WHILE JORDAN SYSTEMATICALLY DESECRATED THE ANCIENT JEWISH CEMETERY ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, AND IT REMAINED SILENT WHEN JORDAN ENFORCED APARTHEID LAWS PREVENTING JEWS FROM ACCESSING THE TEMPLE MOUNT AND WESTERN WALL.
Hmmm....
PS. Try and contain yourself so this thread doesn't get deleted!
I think any person serious about understanding the world we live in without hyperbola should consider the following:
ISRAEL AND JERUSALEM FACTS
1. ISRAEL BECAME A STATE IN 1312 B.C., TWO MILLENNIA BEFORE ISLAM;
2. ARAB REFUGEES FROM ISRAEL BEGAN CALLING THEMSELVES "PALESTINIANS" IN 1967, TWO DECADES AFTER (MODERN) ISRAELI STATEHOOD;
3. AFTER CONQUERING THE LAND IN 1272 B.C., JEWS RULED IT FOR A THOUSAND YEARS AND MAINTAINED A CONTINUOUS PRESENCE THERE FOR 3,300 YEARS;
4. THE ONLY ARAB RULE FOLLOWING CONQUEST IN 633 A.D. LASTED JUST 22 YEARS;
5. FOR OVER 3,300 YEARS, JERUSALEM WAS THE JEWISH CAPITAL. IT WAS NEVER THE CAPITAL OF ANY ARAB OR MUSLIM ENTITY. EVEN UNDER JORDANIAN RULE, (EAST) JERUSALEM WAS NOT MADE THE CAPITAL, AND NO ARAB LEADER CAME TO VISIT IT;
6. JERUSALEM IS MENTIONED OVER 700 TIMES IN THE BIBLE, BUT NOT ONCE IS IT MENTIONED IN THE QUR'AN;
7. KING DAVID FOUNDED JERUSALEM; MOHAMMED NEVER SET FOOT IN IT;
8. JEWS PRAY FACING JERUSALEM; MUSLIMS FACE MECCA. IF THEY ARE BETWEEN THE TWO CITIES, MUSLIMS PRAY FACING MECCA, WITH THEIR BACKS TO JERUSALEM;
9. IN 1948, ARAB LEADERS URGED THEIR PEOPLE TO LEAVE, PROMISING TO CLEANSE THE LAND OF JEWISH PRESENCE. 68% OF THEM FLED WITHOUT EVER SETTING EYES ON AN ISRAELI SOLDIER;
10. VIRTUALLY THE ENTIRE JEWISH POPULATION OF MUSLIM COUNTRIES HAD TO FLEE AS THE RESULT OF VIOLENCE AND POGROMS;
11. SOME 630,000 ARABS LEFT ISRAEL IN 1948, WHILE CLOSE TO A MILLION JEWS WERE FORCED TO LEAVE THE MUSLIM COUNTRIES;
12. IN SPITE OF THE VAST TERRITORIES AT THEIR DISPOSAL, ARAB REFUGESS WERE DELIBERATELY PREVENTED FROM ASSIMILATING INTO THEIR HOST COUNTRIES. OF 100 MILLION REFUGEES FOLLOWING WORLD WAR 2, THEY ARE THE ONLY GROUP TO HAVE NEVER INTEGRATED WITH THEIR CORELIGIONISTS. MOST OF THE JEWISH REFUGEES FROM EUROPE AND ARAB LANDS WERE SETTLED IN ISRAEL, A COUNTRY NO LARGER THAN NEW JERSEY;
13. THERE ARE 22 MUSLIM COUNTRIES, NOT COUNTING PALESTINE. THERE IS ONLY ONE JEWISH STATE. ARABS STARTED ALL FIVE WARS AGAINST ISRAEL, AND LOST EVERY ONE OF THEM;
14. FATAH AND HAMAS CONSTITUTIONS STILL CALL FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL. ISRAEL CEDED MOST OF THE WEST BANK AND ALL OF GAZA TO THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, AND EVEN PROVIDED IT WITH ARMS;
15. DURING THE JORDANIAN OCCUPATION, JEWISH HOLY SITES WERE VANDALIZED AND WERE OFF LIMITS TO JEWS. UNDER ISRAELI RULE, ALL MUSLIM AND CHRISTIAN HOLY SITES ARE ACCESSIBLE TO ALL FAITHS;
16. OUT OF 175 UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS UP TO 1990, 97 WERE AGAINST ISRAEL; OUT OF 690 GENERAL ASSEMBLY RESOLUTIONS, 429 WERE AGAINST ISRAEL;
17. THE U.N. WAS SILENT WHEN THE JORDANIANS DESTROYED 58 SYNAGOGUES IN THE OLD CITY OF JERUSALEM. IT REMAINED SILENT WHILE JORDAN SYSTEMATICALLY DESECRATED THE ANCIENT JEWISH CEMETERY ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, AND IT REMAINED SILENT WHEN JORDAN ENFORCED APARTHEID LAWS PREVENTING JEWS FROM ACCESSING THE TEMPLE MOUNT AND WESTERN WALL.
Hmmm....
PS. Try and contain yourself so this thread doesn't get deleted!
HOB 10.05.2005, E Rutherford 06.03.2006, The Gorge 07.22.2006, Lolla 08.05.2007, West Palm 06.11.2008, Tampa 06.12.2008, Columbia 06.16.2008, EV Memphis 06.20.2009, New Orleans 05.01.2010, Kansas City 05.03.2010
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Nice list ... These last two stand out for me right now, though. The UN is hard to take seriously, given that its basically become an internationally recognized forum for harassing Israel. 429 resolutions? Are you kidding me? All the atrocities and terrible things happening in the world in the 1990s, in Africa, Asia ... Other parts of the Middle East ... What is the UN, if not a forum commandeered by Muslim nations with the express purpose of hounding the Israelis?
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
#9 is interesting too. Arabs told arabs to leave Israel so they could then cleasne the land. Of course when they tried Israel won.
And Jeruselum is not in the Q'aran?????
I mean, to start with, I think the Islamic claims to Jerusalem are indeed bogus. I don't see any validity in saying that Muhammed ascended to heaven there (or that he ascended to heaven at all). Jewish and Christian claims of holy miracles on this land are also fantasical heresay. The only thing we can say for certain is that Jews built a kingdom in the region many hundreds of years ago after they conquered the Canaanites who were living there.
Its true "Palestinian" was a not a term generally used before 1967, but the land was called Palestine, and was also considered part of Syria. Jews and Christians called it Palestine. There was no such people as Jordanians or Iraqis until the 20th century. It doesn't mean Arabs didn't live there, so its a ridiculous point to bring up that Arabs living in Palestine didn't refer to themselves as Palestinians, but instead as Arabs - just like those would become Jordanians and Iraqis.
I have not read the Qu'ran thoroughly, but apparently it is not mentioned.
The Dome of the Rock (Arabic: قبة الصخرة Qubbat As-Sakhrah) is a famous Islamic shrine in Jerusalem. It was built between 687 and 691 by the 9th Caliph, Abd al-Malik. It is sometimes called the Mosque of Umar , as 2nd Caliph Umar prayed at the site after the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem in 637.
Located in what Muslims call the Noble Sanctuary (Haram al-Sharif, Arabic: الحرم الشريف) — which Jews and Christians call the Temple Mount — it remains one of the best known landmarks of Jerusalem. The rock in the center of the dome is believed by Muslims to be the spot from which Muhammad ascended through the heavens to God accompanied by the angel Gabriel, where he consulted with Moses and was given the (now obligatory) Islamic prayers before returning to earth (see Isra and Mi'raj.) Though the location is not historically certain, a Qur'anic verse says that Muhammad took a night journey on a winged horse from a sacred mosque (probably Mecca) to the farthest mosque (al-Masjid al-Aqsa), which later came to be associated with Dome of the Rock, which might be initially associated with Temple of Solomon. Since Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Qur'an, many neutral historians point to the concept that the caliph decided on the location of the mosque - which started out as a tiny wooden shrine - to show what he perceived to be Islam's superiority over Judaism. Building a shrine on top of Judaism's holiest site - the Temple Mount - would seem to point to the caliph's belief in this idea, although many, if not most Muslims, disagree on the grounds of their religious traditions in the ensuing centuries.
It's not a matter of what may or may not have really happened. Since when have religions really cared about the facts? It's a matter of what they believe.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
You just called facts.... propoganda. The rules are that if they are incorrect then you can refute them, but you can't call them propoganda if they are true (meaning you can't refute them as untruth).
And you don't like the fact they are cut and pasted?? Is that somehow offensive? Really, lets just focus on the bullet points here. I really don't have a dog in the hunt here, this is just information being shared.
I don't know that the land was called Palestine before the 20th century. I do know that Arabs lived there and so did Jews.
Well if you take the religion out of the conversation then neither country has a religious claim to the land, but Israel does have a historic national history that as a soveirgn nation they have a right to defend. Unless someone can take it from them, its theirs.
Of course we all know the real reasons why they are hated is apparanently due to religious reasons, best I can tell.
Actually, there is nothing inheirantly untruthful about propaganda. Calling it propaganda was simply to say it was pre-packaged.
The land was called Palestine throughout the centuries, named after the Philistines who lived in Gaza. When the Romans took over they called the whole region between the Mediterrean and the Jordan river Palestine and the name stuck. The Crusaders called it Palestine and so did the first Jewish settlers in the dawn of Zionism.
I prefer my belief that propoganda is typically deceptive at its root, especially the motive behind it. That is sure how I see it used around here.
Why didn't they call it Philistinia instead, or call them Palestinians? Just kidding.
Its been almost 60 years now, the landscape has changed, cities poped out, the number of residents has grown till the point of too many people per square kilometer, pushing people against the wall and use violence was proven to be wrong...
But the Palestinians still insists of having all of their world-wide refugees living in what will become Palestine (I'm not talking about potential, there are more than a million of them in Jordan who actually want to come in now), they still insist on evacuating and destroying the city of Ariel (=/= those villages we have no problem to re-locate) instead of getting another equivalent pice of land. Israel is still keeping most of the usless roadblockes, and still imposing curfews which are doing more damage than good, PLO still thinks it can get something using violent ways...
Untill both of us start to learn from the past, live the reality and think about the future, I don't see any progress for the Israel-Palestine conflict coming soon.
But someone did take it from them a long time ago - most significantly the Romans. So, I'm not in favor of the argument that the jews deserve Israel because they owned it a long time ago. That's like saying we should give the United States back to the Indians.
But, as I'm sure you already know, the Ottomons and the British both later conquered that land and systematically sold it off to the jews piece by piece. I think that's what should be included in the list, not something that happened a gajillion years ago.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
If you think that conquest is a legitimate means of acquiring a piece of land then Israel is legitimate by virtue of the fact that it conquered the land. You say that America shouldn't give the land back to the Native Americans, so the same logic should hold with the Palestinians.
That's what I'm saying. I'm saying that all of that ancient history stuff should not be used to justify Israel's current existence. But, I think the religious stuff is more relevant because the arabs are always talking about how it's their holy land, when it really isn't as much as it is the jew's holy land.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
Which is exactly what I said - Palestinians are trapped in the past, and Israel doesn't learn from past-mistakes. The whole "holy land" thing is irrelevant for the average Israeli for a LONG time, as well to our govt.
quote:
14. FATAH AND HAMAS CONSTITUTIONS STILL CALL FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL.
Israel wants to destroy Hamas and Fatah. What goes around comes around.
quote:
UNDER ISRAELI RULE, ALL MUSLIM AND CHRISTIAN HOLY SITES ARE ACCESSIBLE TO ALL FAITHS;
Not really, as they can't travel freely and thus is prevented from even reaching those sites.
quote:
16. OUT OF 175 UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS UP TO 1990, 97 WERE AGAINST ISRAEL; OUT OF 690 GENERAL ASSEMBLY RESOLUTIONS, 429 WERE AGAINST ISRAEL;
How do they intend that to be an argument for israel??? Are you suggesting that the whole world is generally against Israel? That's quite the martyr complex.
quote:
IT REMAINED SILENT WHILE JORDAN SYSTEMATICALLY DESECRATED THE ANCIENT JEWISH CEMETERY ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES
As it remains silent when Muslim cemetaries are bulldozered.
Oddly enough, these "facts" were conjured by a Jewish Journalist. Go figure.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16351
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
30 Facts About Israel You Should Know
1. Did you know that non-Jewish Israelis cannot buy or lease land in Israel? A Jew from any country in the world is guaranteed citizenship in Israel, while the Palestinians who have been there for centuries are oppressed and persecuted.
2. Did you know that instead of sewing an insignia on clothing to distinguish race (like the Germans did to the Jews before WW2), Palestinian license plates in Israel are color coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews?
3. Did you know that East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights are all considered by the entire world community, including the United States and the United Nations, to be occupied territory and NOT part of the State of Israel?
4. Did you know that Israel allots 85% of the water resources for Jews, and the remaining 15% is divided among all Palestinians in the territories? For example in Hebron, 85% of the water is set aside for about 400 Jewish settlers, while the remaining 15% is distributed among Hebron's 120, 000 Palestinians?
5. Did you know that the United States awards Israel $5 billion in aid each year from American tax dollars?
6. Did you know that US aid to Israel ($3.0 billion annually) exceeds the aid the US grants to the entire African continent? This aid is used both to buy American weaponry and to buy arms made in Israel.
7. Did you know that Israel is awaiting an additional $4 billion worth of American military hardware, including new F-16s and Apache and Blackhawk helicopters. As Israel's main ally and supporter internationally, the United States is committed to maintaining the Jewish state's "qualitative edge" in weapons over its neighbors.
8. Did you know that the U.S. administration has notified Congress on numerous occasions that Israel has violated the rules on how US-supplied weapons are used? (In 1978, 1979 and 1982 during fighting in Lebanon, and once after Israel's bombing of an Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981.)
9. Did you know that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections from its sites?
10. Did you know that high-ranking military officers in the Israeli Defense Forces have admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war have been summarily executed by the Israeli forces?
11. Did you know that Israel blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a US warship in international waters (the USS Liberty), killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors and the US did nothing about it?
12. Did you know that Israel stands in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council Resolutions?
13. Did you know that Israel is explicitly dedicated to the policy of maintaining a distinct Jewish character?
14. Did you know that Israel's current Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, was found by an Israeli court to be "personally and directly responsible" for the Sabra and Shatilla massacre in Lebanon where more than a thousand innocent Palestinian men, women, and children were axed to death or lined up and shot in cold blood?
15. Did you know that on May 20, 1990, a group of unarmed Palestinian laborers were lined up and murdered by an Israeli solider as they sat waiting for transportation back to Gaza? The terrified laborers who gathered in an area of southern Israel known as Rishon Lezion (known to Palestinians by its Arabic name Oyon Qara) handed their ID cards to the Israeli soldier. The soldiers ordered the distressed laborers to kneel down and face the ground and unexpectedly showered them with a barrage of bullets, killing seven and wounding many others. Needless to say, the soldier was not charged with any crime.
16. Did you know that until as recently as 1988, Israelis were permitted to run "Jews Only" job ads?
17. Did you know that the Israeli Foreign Ministry pays six US public relations firms to promote a "positive image" of Israel to the American public?
18. Did you know that Sharon's coalition government includes a party--Molodet--which advocates ethnic cleansing by openly calling for the forced expulsion of all Palestinians from the occupied territories?
19. Did you know that recently-declassified documents indicate that David Ben-Gurion approved of the forced expulsion of Arabs from all Palestininan territory in 1948?
20. Did you know that the former chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, who is also a founder and spiritual leader of the religious Shas party (Israel's third largest political party) openly advocates a 'Final Solution' to annihilate the Palestinians? Speaking at the widely broadcast sermon marking the last Passover, he declared of the Palestinians: "The Lord shall return their deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them, devastate them and vanish them from this world. It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable."
21. Did you know that Palestinian refugees make up the largest portion of the refugee population in the world?
22. Did you know that Palestinian Christians are considered the "living stones" of Christianity because they are the direct descendants of the disciples of Jesus Christ? And the Palestinian Christians stand united with their Muslim brethren in the struggle against the Israeli occupation.
23. Did you know that despite a ban on torture by Israel's High Court of Justice, torture has continued unabated by Shin Bet interrogators on Palestinian prisoners?
24. Did you know that despite every Israeli attempt to disrupt Palestinian education, Palestinians have the highest ratio of PhDs per capita in the world?
25. Did you know that the right of self-determination is guaranteed to every human being under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights [December, 1948], yet Palestinians were/are expected to negotiate for this right under the Oslo Accords?
26. Did you know that despite what is widely perpetuated and written in the history books that the Arabs attacked Israel in the 1967 war, it was Israel who attacked the Arab countries first, capturing Jerusalem and the West Bank, and called the attack a pre-emptive strike?
27. Did you know that, as an occupying power, Israel has a particular responsibility under the Geneva Conventions to protect Palestinian civilians?
28. Did you know that, despite Ariel Sharon's public call for a unilateral ceasefire, Israeli soldiers have not stopped shooting, killing or bulldozing Palestinian homes? The most recent example of this is the murder of three innocent women who were shot by an Israeli tank as they sat in their tent!
29. Did you know that the Zionists have been trying to destroy Masjid al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock for the last 50 years by digging underground tunnels beneath the sites to weaken its foundation causing it to collapse?
30) Nelson Mandela called the Israeli government an apartheid regime, just like South Africa used to be.
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Did you know I can make a similar (or even worse) list regarding to almost every other country in the world?
Too many of your "facts" are wrong or mis-interpreted, but it doesn't matter cause you'll always look for the source of info which gives you what you want to hear (Ariel Sharon is our current prime minister. sure. whatever you say).
Israel is the most evil place on this planet, its jewish residents are all evil-blind as well. Ok, we got it, now lets move on to something new cause you're making me bored.
Just as bored as you people trying to claim you are always right. Yeah, you are right it does get very boring and won't lead to one bloody thing changing over there. But of course when your head is in the sky as with your comments and others, those peasants below you will still be looking up and wondering what the air is like up there. So when they bring you down to their level as you don't want them up with you. The world may be a better place.
Nice list Kabong! It just keeps reminding me of 1940 all over again and again and again.
"you people"? when, clearly you didn't raed any of my posts here. But that's ok, I am used to all of the generalizations around here.
btw, the air in my shelter is quite dense, but I'm sure you'll make up a reason for me to apologize for that as well.
Now, I hate to be a killjoy and all, but Ive read quite a few of your posts, responded to some, and do you know what I think?
I think you either have serious meme attention seeking disorder, OR...
You're lying, and you aren't in a shelter, or are even Israeli. Just making things up to suit your political needs. Are you one of these people?
"Israel’s Foreign Ministry must avoid direct involvement with the campaign but is
in contact with international Jewish and evangelical Christian groups, distributing
internet information packs. "
Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers
From Yonit Farago in Jerusalem
WHILE Israel fights Hezbollah with tanks and aircraft, its supporters are
campaigning on the internet.
Israel’s Government has thrown its weight behind efforts by supporters to counter
what it believes to be negative bias and a tide of pro-Arab propaganda. The Foreign
Ministry has ordered trainee diplomats to track websites and chatrooms so that
networks of US and European groups with hundreds of thousands of Jewish activists
can place supportive messages.
In the past week nearly 5,000 members of the World Union of Jewish Students (WUJS)
have downloaded special “megaphone†software that alerts them to anti-Israeli
chatrooms or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints. A student
team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to flag the sites
so that those who have signed up can influence an opinion survey or the course of a
debate.
Jonny Cline, of the international student group, said that Jewish students and
youth groups with their understanding of the web environment were ideally placed to
present another side to the debate.
“We’re saying to these people that if Israel is being bashed, don’t ignore it,
change it,†Mr Cline said. “A poll like CNN’s takes just a few seconds to vote in,
but if thousands take part the outcome will be changed. What’s vital is that the
international face of the conflict is balanced.â€
Doron Barkat, 29, in Jerusalem, spends long nights trawling the web to try to swing
the debate Israel’s way. “When I see internet polls for or against Israel I send
out a mailing list to vote for Israel,†he said. “It can be that after 15 minutes
there will be 400 votes for Israel.
“It’s very satisfying. There are also forums where Lebanese and Israelis talk.â€
Israel’s Foreign Ministry must avoid direct involvement with the campaign but is in
contact with international Jewish and evangelical Christian groups, distributing
internet information packs.
Amir Gissin, the Israeli Foreign Ministry’s public relations director, said: “The
internet’s become a leading tool for news, shaping the world view of millions. Our
problem is the foreign media shows Lebanese suffering, but not Israeli. We’re
bypassing that filter by distributing pictures showing how northern Israelis suffer
from Katyusha rocket attacks.â€
Source:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,174-2289232,00.html
hahaha, you say they are lies but the only one you can point to is 'ariel sharon is no longer PM!!!' it was obviously written while he was...that doesn't take away from the 30 things contained, just that it was compiled while he was the pm.
you know, kinda like you kept saying for days on end that i was starting demagogic threads about israeli children then after about the dozenth time of asking you for an example you gave me 2 or 3 weak examples, none of which had ANYTHING to do w/ israeli kids
:rolleyes:
i also have never said 'Israel is the most evil place on this planet, its jewish residents are all evil-blind as well.' nor anything even remotely close to that. in fact i have repeatedly separated the citizenry from the government, your lack of grasping this only points out that you don't pay attention or just like making absurdist comments (or silverstain was spot on)
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I only pointed at one because, as I said, it is pointless to have a discussion with someone who gets only the info that fits his point of view. I also said some of your facts are mis-interpreted (=/= lies), and told you a million times the Israeli kids thing was related to all the people who participated in Eva7's thread (which has a demagogic title) including you, but as always - you don't really bother to look nor to read my replays.
You don't need to say unequivocally "Israel is the most evil place on earth", your closed-minded posts and the way you express yourself whenever it comes to 'Israel' make it looks like you're trying the best you can to make others think its a horrible evil place, when in fact it is not. Sure we got lots of shit going on here, but we also got many many many good things which you obviously prefer to ignore.
Well, I have nothing else to say to you other than enjoy it, god knows you certainly do.
ok, you are a LIAR
http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=3569432&postcount=38
a reply from YOU quoting ME
"along with your demagogic titles would think ALL Israeli (or Palestinian) kids are full with hate and are being raised that way."
again, none of the thread titles you named had ANYTHING to do w/ KIDS, so were you just confused w/ that reply?
http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=3567069&postcount=27
again, a reply from YOU quoting ME:
"Your original artical and original titles regarding those pictures were basically saying "Israeli kids are signing gifts for the Lebanese". This is a VERY demagogic thing to say"
my original article was from an ISRAELI newspaper ...if you feel their article was demagogic you have the power to do something, since you claim you live there.
the thread title by EVA7 was 'who started it is a question, not an answer' hardly what i'd call demagogic. i didn't even post the pics in that thread. the thread i posted them in (other than the 'photos of israeli children signing missiles stir controversy' thread, which again, is faaar from demagogic) was Puck78's, titled 'Amnesty International: Israel / Lebanon: End immediately attacks against civilians' i also fail to see how that title was demagogic further proving you do not fully understand the definition of 'demagogic'
you also spread misinformation as you claimed in the 'photos of israeli children...' thread:
http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=3564783&postcount=5
"I don't like this picture either, but I'm not gonna be demagogic about it. Do you understand hebrew? Well, I do. These kids are from Kiryat Shmona, maybe one of the most bombed towns in northern Israel since the 80's. Do you know what they wrote?
"Nasralla, I've waited for this all of my life..." "Hizbullah, I hope you'll get what..." and then signed their names.
This, This is what I'm talking about. Assuming things just becasue someone said something that matched your point of view and there we have it - the whole world is now thinking these Israeli *kids* and maybe all Israeli kids are evil.
How LOW can you guys go?
That artical proves I was right. Great, so now our kids are evil. Yeah, good for you. Keep on "not" stirring up the air storm."
again, the article i cited was ISRAELI and i trust they DO understand Hebrew and they contradict what you had claimed the missiles said. it is also clear you are saying that thread of mine WAS demagogic.
as you can see i certainly DO read your posts and replys
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
1. along with your demagogic titles in general, not specific to that case
2 original title = eva7's post
3 Eva7's post = Israeli kids sign gifts... it's the second post of a thread about how evil Israel is. I told you then I don't know how to link to a single post.
4. The first article wasn't Israeli, the second one which you brought in order to link between these kids in the picture and a well knowen phenomenon of kids who were brought up to hate arabs - that was an Israeli one, and I didn't like that horrible equation you were trying to make, nor the fact you are still thinking I'm denaying such phenomenon exists.
As you can see, you read what you want, and understand what you want. Too bad the reality is different than what you believe it is.
Enharmonic - Isn't the Torah the freaking Old Testement? C'mom, unless I am missing something and you are enlightened, this is a crazy statement. Have you ever read the Bible, OT vs NT?
So, all that was meant to overpower the original post I guess - some of what you said was true, some of that was propoganda and quite debatable. If the reactions is to just flail every time there is something positve said about Israel, then I guess there really is nothing to say at all.
Don't tell me to hate Israel. Don't tell me to hate anyone.
And Shiraz could be given a bit more respect.
Sure. And?
Dont know if they did, but kinda irrelevant as they were thrown off their land, whatever they would call themselves before. This goes at the nationalist thesis that only a "people" (I could have a field day picking apart and problematizing such a term) with the right historical references are entitled to exist and "own" a land. People who are not a PEOPLE have no rights and should shut up.
Not for long they did. The land has been under the babylonian, assyrian, roman and turkish empires in the span, not to mention the time under islamic caliphates for centuries (under which the dome of the rock was built), interrupted by christian conquest for about a century. There have been jews around, certainly. They did not in any way "rule". Note there were not only jews there either. So the jews were there, among others.
Depends of your definition of "arab" I guess. Palestine has been under islamic empires and regimes in the span 600-1900s at least, with the exception of crusades.
Jerusalem wasn't a capital of anything for thousands of years. Relevance?
I wouldn't know, but since Jerusalem is the third holiest city in Islam after Mecca and Medina, there must be something there. And relevance?
Quite possibly, although Mohammed had dealing with the jews, as he at first regarded himself as part of a judeo-christian prophetic tradition. They dismissed him, so he started on his own. If he ever were in Jerusalem, I do not know. Relevance?
Correct. So?
Possible. I dont know. Their land was still taken away regardless.
True.
Probably true
Co-religionists? what kind of word is that? And yes, they are used by the states they reside in for their own purposes, that is true. Which further exacerbates the injustice towards them.
"So at least they should get that one"? Nevermind the people there? But true. Who started all the wars are up for debate I think, but some of them by the arabs, certainly.
Hamas - yes. Fatah - no.
Quite possible.
The jews are hated in some parts, but the plenty of resolutions also have its background in Israel being a construct from the UN from the get-go.
Quite possible
Now the pretense for this entire list is that jews are as one, and arabs are as one. And people of the same religion or ethnicity are all one. All the points and their intent have their roots in the murkiest depths of nationalism. How many arab nations compared to jewish nations is irrelevant. Nations are not granted and justified based on such calculations. The kurds have no nation, the romani doesnt, lots of ethnic groups have no nation. It's not a right to have one. And none of the points justifies what is being done to the palestinians now.
And again, the other side is of course not without fault either, if by other side is meant the other nations around Palestine. But the "facts" are not irrevocably true, nor do they mean anything. Some of them yes. Many of them were irrelevancies.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
1) Israel did not start all five wars...I do not agree entirely. Israel did indeed "start" the 1956 war against Egypt with the British and French, though they were provoked by Nassar.
On all other points you are correct. The historical link to the land of Israel is pretty well laid out here. True, the Romans did sack Jerusalem in AD 70 and then subsequent oppressive regimes prevented the return of Jews to their historical land.
Jews began coming back to Israel in larger numbers under the Muslim Ottomans who in fact invited many oppressed jews living and being killed in Europe to emigrate to the Muslim Ottoman empire. This was in the 15th century. In the 15th century the Ottoman Turks controlled the area known now as Israel and allowed Jews to return to that land.
I find the interesting analysis of the Romans to the Jews as to the Americans to the Native Americans. It is a fair analogy. We took a land that did not belong to us and clearly wiped out a people who DID in fact have thousands of years of historical relationship to the land. But we did not give it back and I don't see anyone over here in America looking to return the Plains to the Indians.
We wiped out an entire way of life that will never come back. In modern terms we truly committed genocide against the Indians. Hardly the same as a people (the jews) defending themselves from being eradicated by Arabs after losing 6 million to the ovens. The comparison is a sick and twisted one and is not a proper analogy.
If you still think it proper then you must assume that to the victor goes the spoils. We defeated the Indians and we still hold their land to this day. The Allies defeated Germany and ceded German land to Poland at the end of World war 2. We still occupy Japaneese territory to this day. How bout Hawaii? Should we give that back too?
If we want to compare the Israelis to the Americans lets use equal standards.
Irvine 1992, Las Vegas 1993, Mountain View 1994, San Diego 1995, Los Angeles 1996, Los Angeles 1998, Moutain View 1999, San Bernadino 2000, Los Angeles 2000, Irvine 2003, Irvine 2003, Moutain View 2003, Santa Barbara 2003, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006, Santa Barbara 2006
Both these posts agree on some points. No historical link to the people who call themselves Palestinians to the land of Israel. As the 2nd poster points out there really is no such thing as an Iraqi or a Jordanian. These were 20th century creations after the collapse of the British Empire post World War 2.
Irvine 1992, Las Vegas 1993, Mountain View 1994, San Diego 1995, Los Angeles 1996, Los Angeles 1998, Moutain View 1999, San Bernadino 2000, Los Angeles 2000, Irvine 2003, Irvine 2003, Moutain View 2003, Santa Barbara 2003, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006, Santa Barbara 2006