There's not much to consider. The answers are obvious to most. But I'm speaking in terms of the public arena. Personal inner codes have no place in legislation of the general populace.
Apparently, certain personal/ethical codes are rampant throughout legislation of the general populace. The opposite is to go by an anarchistic system. It doesn't look like that's happening at this time.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
And the science/medical profession has spokan and said that this drug is safe for sale over the counter. The whole reason this pill has been held up from over-the-counter sales is because the Feds want to make this choice for you, against the advice of the professionals.
I've not spoken to this point at all--my concern was with certain fallacies that I saw being presented.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
1. delaying the process of implantation = might prevent pregnancy. Eetrogen derived pills are preventing implantation. I thought the ethical problem starts only AFTER fertilization, not before (hence, there's still no new individual DNA).
Do you realise that fertilisation happens at conception--when sperm meets egg, which is clearly before the pregnancy itself occurs??--before implantation in the uterus?
Your above "point" above, about when the ethical problem occurs, indicates exactly what I'm concerned with: misinformation, misunderstanding, and misconstruing of the facts.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Do you realise that fertilisation happens at conception--when sperm meets egg, which is clearly before the pregnancy itself occurs??--before implantation in the uterus?
Your above "point" above, about when the ethical problem occurs, indicates exactly what I'm concerned with: misinformation, misunderstanding, and misconstruing of the facts.
This is exactly what I said - the only ethical problem starts AFTER fertilisation ,hence before implantation. Like I've said, main activity of Levonorgestrel pill is preventing ovulation & disrupting fertilization, that's why it has only 85% effectiveness - it MIGHT prevent pregnancy if you took it after fertilisation already occured.
And don't worry, I'm a molecular biologist (MSc), we are inventing these kind of pills (:
This is exactly what I said - the only ethical problem starts AFTER fertilisation ,hence before implantation. Like I've said, main activity of Levonorgestrel pill is preventing ovulation & disrupting fertilization, that's why it has only 85% effectiveness - it MIGHT prevent pregnancy if you took it after fertilisation already occured.
And don't worry, I'm a molecular biologist (MSc), we are inventing these kind of pills (:
If someone is concerned with and opposed to causing an "abortion" in the sense that the fertilised egg is DIS-allowed to implant in the uterus, they are not going to be happy knowing that with this pill it MIGHT not happen. To some people, the slightest possibility of deliberately aborting their own child is highly repugnant. And I respect that point of view, and it's validity.
Again, the intentions of the individual taking the pill--obviously in order to prevent pregnancy--is of prime importance when assessing accountability, by any ethical standard. For some it may be viewed as acceptable, for others it is viewed as highly unacceptable. I respect the individual's right to decide for themselves, and I support the individual in assessing their own personal moral fibre in choosing. Yes, science provides understanding and a very valid key to making a good personal choice. At the same time, the choice falls to the individual, ultimately, and not science itself, which, at least in theory, avoids trampling personal choice.
Obviously, the legalisation or not of the pill, including for certain age groups, is an extension of individual moral choice and it's ramifications.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
nonetheless...there should be no age restriction put on access to these pills. whether one considers them abortion or not is irrelevant. the subject is the age limit...and the question is: WHY? condoms may be sold to anyone, any age...no restrictions. a girl may go and buy BC pills, no age restriction. a girl may have a LEGAL abortion in this country, no age restriction. the EC pill is LEGAL. so then, WHY the age restriction? makes zero sense.
nonetheless...there should be no age restriction put on access to these pills. whether one considers them abortion or not is irrelevant. the subject is the age limit...and the question is: WHY? condoms may be sold to anyone, any age...no restrictions. a girl may go and buy BC pills, no age restriction. a girl may have a LEGAL abortion in this country, no age restriction. the EC pill is LEGAL. so then, WHY the age restriction? makes zero sense.
Perception..........
My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
Obviously, the legalisation or not of the pill, including for certain age groups, is an extension of individual moral choice and it's ramifications.
I still haven't got an answer about the age limitations - why is it morally ok for a 19 years old girl to use it, and it wouldn't be morally ok for a 16 years old to use it? The drug is allowed, so this has nothing to do to with abortion arguments. What's the real reason for doing this kind of thing?
point is, who gives a shit? it should NOT be about perception. if it is legal, which it is, access should be readily available for ALL. it's bullshit, nothing more.
i personally couldn't care less what anyone's personally held beliefs are in reagrds to abortion, BC, etc...as long as it does not infringe on my rights, or the rights of women in general to safe, legal access to all. you don't want it? don't use it. but do not try to infringe on others. it has no place. and usre, yada, yada...we can get into the whole 'abortion debate'...which never ends, rights of the fertilized egg....etc. honestly, doesn't matter here. it's ALREADY been decided: it is LEGAL.
so then, the question remains....WHY is access to a completely legal form of BC, EC, being denied access for a segment of the population? it's wrong.
point is, who gives a shit? it should NOT be about perception. if it is legal, which it is, access should be readily available for ALL. it's bullshit, nothing more.
i personally couldn't care less what anyone's personally held beliefs are in reagrds to abortion, BC, etc...as long as it does not infringe on my rights, or the rights of women in general to safe, legal access to all. you don't want it? don't use it. but do not try to infringe on others. it has no place. and usre, yada, yada...we can get into the whole 'abortion debate'...which never ends, rights of the fertilized egg....etc. honestly, doesn't matter here. it's ALREADY been decided: it is LEGAL.
so then, the question remains....WHY is access to a completely legal form of BC, EC, being denied access for a segment of the population? it's wrong.
Only to play devil's advocate here, but doesn't a woman need a prescription to get the birth control pill or patch or whatever? And unless I am wrong, I think a minor can still get plan B if a doctor prescribes it.
That being said, I think that this is a good move to put it OTC...
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Only to play devil's advocate here, but doesn't a woman need a prescription to get the birth control pill or patch or whatever? And unless I am wrong, I think a minor can still get plan B if a doctor prescribes it.
That being said, I think that this is a good move to put it OTC...
sure she needs a prescription...but there is no age limit on such. that is all. it was my understanding from the thread starter that in fact they were not allowing accfess to such? that was the whole point. otherwise...carry on. haha. as long as there is access, all good.
btw - i think OTC would be taking it too far....even for BC pills. i think doctor/medical involvement in such issues is a good thing. important for a girls/womans health....etc. so i have no issue with that. my issue lies in denial of access to a girl based soely on her age, for a drug that is legal in this country, nothing more. i won't even get into the usual abortion debate stuff....b/c honestly...it's got nothing to do with it....and i for one and am happy to forego that circular discussion, ad nauseum.
sure she needs a prescription...but there is no age limit on such. that is all. it was my understanding from the thread starter that in fact they were not allowing accfess to such? that was the whole point. otherwise...carry on. haha. as long as there is access, all good.
btw - i think OTC would be taking it too far....even for BC pills. i think doctor/medical involvement in such issues is a good thing. important for a girls/womans health....etc. so i have no issue with that. my issue lies in denial of access to a girl based soely on her age, for a drug that is legal in this country, nothing more. i won't even get into the usual abortion debate stuff....b/c honestly...it's got nothing to do with it....and i for one and am happy to forego that circular discussion, ad nauseum.
I think OTC for birtch control would be too far, as there are a lot of issues that can be caused with messing with hormones long term, but for the "morning after pill", I don't have a problem with it being OTC. I think that it could help some people avoid unwanted pregnancies who may not have the opportunity (or are too scared) to go to a doctor or planned parenthood.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
I think OTC for birtch control would be too far, as there are a lot of issues that can be caused with messing with hormones long term, but for the "morning after pill", I don't have a problem with it being OTC. I think that it could help some people avoid unwanted pregnancies who may not have the opportunity (or are too scared) to go to a doctor or planned parenthood.
yes, agreed on the first half. however, now i saw and read the link someone later provided. haha. ok then, it is still allowing access thru prescription for younger girls. the first post was a bit misleading, at least to me. so then, ok. i am fine with that. as long as they can get it when necessary, it's all good. i can sorta understand the rationale for that...you don't want a 14 year old girl self-medicating with an OTC EC pill.....could be harmful/unnecessary. i have no issue with them needing to see a doctor for a prescription, there are planned parenthoods all over. as long as ready access is available.
nonetheless...there should be no age restriction put on access to these pills. whether one considers them abortion or not is irrelevant. the subject is the age limit...and the question is: WHY? condoms may be sold to anyone, any age...no restrictions. a girl may go and buy BC pills, no age restriction. a girl may have a LEGAL abortion in this country, no age restriction. the EC pill is LEGAL. so then, WHY the age restriction? makes zero sense.
Questions: Is this pill to be considered over the counter (OTC) or will it's purchase require a doctor's prescription? Someone mentioned OTC which places it in a different legal prespective (U.S. Law) than Birth Control pills. I do believe that birth control pills are not OTC, they are prescription. Will an age limit apply to Doctor's orders if this new drug (for the U.S) is prescription??
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
I think OTC for birtch control would be too far, as there are a lot of issues that can be caused with messing with hormones long term, but for the "morning after pill", I don't have a problem with it being OTC. I think that it could help some people avoid unwanted pregnancies who may not have the opportunity (or are too scared) to go to a doctor or planned parenthood.
Would the "morning after pill" also not create massive shifts in hormone production???
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
Questions: Is this pill to be considered over the counter (OTC) or will it's purchase require a doctor's prescription? Someone mentioned OTC which places it in a different legal prespective (U.S. Law) than Birth Control pills. I do believe that birth control pills are not OTC, they are prescription. Will an age limit apply to Doctor's orders if this new drug (for the U.S) is prescription??
see later posts. i misunderstood. i thought the initial thread-starter was suggesting access to said meds was illegal, not that simply they would require a prescription. i am a-ok with the needing of a prescription for one underage. so the issue is....the EC pill will be available to adult women over the age of 18 OTC, but those underage, still have access, but only with a prescription. again, i do agree with it. i do not want some 14 year old taking any drug without some medical supervision.
yes, agreed on the first half. however, now i saw and read the link someone later provided. haha. ok then, it is still allowing access thru prescription for younger girls. the first post was a bit misleading, at least to me. so then, ok. i am fine with that. as long as they can get it when necessary, it's all good. i can sorta understand the rationale for that...you don't want a 14 year old girl self-medicating with an OTC EC pill.....could be harmful/unnecessary. i have no issue with them needing to see a doctor for a prescription, there are planned parenthoods all over. as long as ready access is available.
I don't agree with you. I find it VERY unfair that a 16 years old girl who was raped by her B/F, would have to make an appointment to a gynecologist and provide him some explinations in order to get that pill. I can't see a reason to put her or a 16 years old girl who got drunk and had un-protected sex in a position where they have to wait before getting this pill, like their current stressfull state isn't bad enough.
Don't know about the US, but in Israel only people with academic degree in pharmacology can sell drugs in a pharmacy / drugstore, hence they are able to provide the right judgement & med-knowledge in these kind of situations.
Couldn't taking the birth control pill itself be considered an abortion? The egg was prevented from taking it's natural course. Those eggs are destined to be something. Where do we draw the line anymore? It's getting rediculous. We are prisoners even to each other now in our own supposedly "free" society.
Reminds me of the saying "you can't get anything for free anymore"
Couldn't taking the birth control pill itself be considered an abortion? The egg was prevented from taking it's natural course. Those eggs are destined to be something. Where do we draw the line anymore? It's getting rediculous. We are prisoners even to each other now in our own supposedly "free" society.
Reminds me of the saying "you can't get anything for free anymore"
If you are free to make your own personal choice, how are you prisoner to someone else, exactly? You can choose what methods of birth control are within your ethical acceptance, therefore one would think others can choose as well, even if it includes making the choice to, for example, follow strict catholic methods. How does the choice of another affect you in this regard? Keep in mind that I'm speaking strictly regarding birth control and ethics as you mention and not legalities of the EC pill.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
If you are free to make your own personal choice, how are you prisoner to someone else, exactly? You can choose what methods of birth control are within your ethical acceptance, therefore one would think others can choose as well, even if it includes making the choice to, for example, follow strict catholic methods. How does the choice of another affect you in this regard? Keep in mind that I'm speaking strictly regarding birth control and ethics as you mention and not legalities of the EC pill.
I see us all as prisoners to each other in the sense that how often do so many of us "police" our opinions on others and try to control others in general. It seems like today that it's all about eliminating or controlling those around us instead of accepting. The coining of the term "political correctness" is some bent form of gov't mind control no doubt. So hey watch all your P's and Q's everybody big brother is watching. "Do the right thing" - our right thing! They US govt has a 1-800 number to rat out everyone for something these days. Another form of societal fear control. People are getting sued for everything under the sun in the US. IT seems now we can't even trust each other anymore. People always judging everyone else with snide comments and looks, racism is getting worse, there's more war going on now more than ever. We are definitely going backwards it seems.
If we can manage to remove the crime element from society (i.e. ongoing societal gang funding v.s. legalization) we are 75% of the way there to a much more peaceful and happy planet imo.
I see us all as prisoners to each other in the sense that how often do so many of us "police" our opinions on others and try to control others in general. It seems like today that it's all about eliminating or controlling those around us instead of accepting. The coining of the term "political correctness" is some bent form of gov't mind control no doubt. So hey watch all your P's and Q's everybody big brother is watching. "Do the right thing" - our right thing! They US govt has a 1-800 number to rat out everyone for something these days. Another form of societal fear control. People are getting sued for everything under the sun in the US. IT seems now we can't even trust each other anymore. People always judging everyone else with snide comments and looks, racism is getting worse, there's more war going on now more than ever. We are definitely going backwards it seems.
If we can manage to remove the crime element from society (i.e. ongoing societal gang funding v.s. legalization) we are 75% of the way there to a much more peaceful and happy planet imo.
Don't know about the US, but in Israel only people with academic degree in pharmacology can sell drugs in a pharmacy / drugstore, hence they are able to provide the right judgement & med-knowledge in these kind of situations.
I see us all as prisoners to each other in the sense that how often do so many of us "police" our opinions on others and try to control others in general. It seems like today that it's all about eliminating or controlling those around us instead of accepting. The coining of the term "political correctness" is some bent form of gov't mind control no doubt. So hey watch all your P's and Q's everybody big brother is watching. "Do the right thing" - our right thing! They US govt has a 1-800 number to rat out everyone for something these days. Another form of societal fear control. People are getting sued for everything under the sun in the US. IT seems now we can't even trust each other anymore. People always judging everyone else with snide comments and looks, racism is getting worse, there's more war going on now more than ever. We are definitely going backwards it seems.
If we can manage to remove the crime element from society (i.e. ongoing societal gang funding v.s. legalization) we are 75% of the way there to a much more peaceful and happy planet imo.
What I see is that the mass majority of people live within the tribal mindset, whereupon one is essentially chained to the person next to them in some way. People are hooked to each other's behaviours and feel the need to judge, or to take the bait of judgment or other such "hooks". We strongly influence each other. And on the other side of it enlightenment refers to the state where one has escaped the chains of society, and yet ironically, one as a individual finds that ultimately all IS one, and therefore such a person feels voluntary connection and universal love towards everything.
My understanding of political correctness is that it stems from sensitivity awareness and extends from psychological or sociological study as a means of bridging gaps and differences. It leads us towards problem solving and away from ostracising those who are the minority. Tons of businesses implement such ideas in order to reap the benefit of connection over separation.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
same difference, they might have interns, but people with pharmacology degrees are behind every transaction.
So why do these girls still need to see the doctor? It makes no sense. Clearly there's no "religious" problem (the drug is allowed), and there's no med-ethical problem (pharmacist can provide the right judgement & med-knowledge)...
Another question: If these girls are "under-age" (minor) and eventually have to see a doctor, does it means their parents are allowed to hear all the details about the case from their doctor, or there is still a doctor-patient privilege?
Comments
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Your above "point" above, about when the ethical problem occurs, indicates exactly what I'm concerned with: misinformation, misunderstanding, and misconstruing of the facts.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
This is exactly what I said - the only ethical problem starts AFTER fertilisation ,hence before implantation. Like I've said, main activity of Levonorgestrel pill is preventing ovulation & disrupting fertilization, that's why it has only 85% effectiveness - it MIGHT prevent pregnancy if you took it after fertilisation already occured.
And don't worry, I'm a molecular biologist (MSc), we are inventing these kind of pills (:
Again, the intentions of the individual taking the pill--obviously in order to prevent pregnancy--is of prime importance when assessing accountability, by any ethical standard. For some it may be viewed as acceptable, for others it is viewed as highly unacceptable. I respect the individual's right to decide for themselves, and I support the individual in assessing their own personal moral fibre in choosing. Yes, science provides understanding and a very valid key to making a good personal choice. At the same time, the choice falls to the individual, ultimately, and not science itself, which, at least in theory, avoids trampling personal choice.
Obviously, the legalisation or not of the pill, including for certain age groups, is an extension of individual moral choice and it's ramifications.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Perception..........
I still haven't got an answer about the age limitations - why is it morally ok for a 19 years old girl to use it, and it wouldn't be morally ok for a 16 years old to use it? The drug is allowed, so this has nothing to do to with abortion arguments. What's the real reason for doing this kind of thing?
point is, who gives a shit? it should NOT be about perception. if it is legal, which it is, access should be readily available for ALL. it's bullshit, nothing more.
i personally couldn't care less what anyone's personally held beliefs are in reagrds to abortion, BC, etc...as long as it does not infringe on my rights, or the rights of women in general to safe, legal access to all. you don't want it? don't use it. but do not try to infringe on others. it has no place. and usre, yada, yada...we can get into the whole 'abortion debate'...which never ends, rights of the fertilized egg....etc. honestly, doesn't matter here. it's ALREADY been decided: it is LEGAL.
so then, the question remains....WHY is access to a completely legal form of BC, EC, being denied access for a segment of the population? it's wrong.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Only to play devil's advocate here, but doesn't a woman need a prescription to get the birth control pill or patch or whatever? And unless I am wrong, I think a minor can still get plan B if a doctor prescribes it.
That being said, I think that this is a good move to put it OTC...
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
sure she needs a prescription...but there is no age limit on such. that is all. it was my understanding from the thread starter that in fact they were not allowing accfess to such? that was the whole point. otherwise...carry on.
btw - i think OTC would be taking it too far....even for BC pills. i think doctor/medical involvement in such issues is a good thing. important for a girls/womans health....etc. so i have no issue with that. my issue lies in denial of access to a girl based soely on her age, for a drug that is legal in this country, nothing more. i won't even get into the usual abortion debate stuff....b/c honestly...it's got nothing to do with it....and i for one and am happy to forego that circular discussion, ad nauseum.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I think OTC for birtch control would be too far, as there are a lot of issues that can be caused with messing with hormones long term, but for the "morning after pill", I don't have a problem with it being OTC. I think that it could help some people avoid unwanted pregnancies who may not have the opportunity (or are too scared) to go to a doctor or planned parenthood.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
yes, agreed on the first half. however, now i saw and read the link someone later provided.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
see later posts.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I don't agree with you. I find it VERY unfair that a 16 years old girl who was raped by her B/F, would have to make an appointment to a gynecologist and provide him some explinations in order to get that pill. I can't see a reason to put her or a 16 years old girl who got drunk and had un-protected sex in a position where they have to wait before getting this pill, like their current stressfull state isn't bad enough.
Don't know about the US, but in Israel only people with academic degree in pharmacology can sell drugs in a pharmacy / drugstore, hence they are able to provide the right judgement & med-knowledge in these kind of situations.
Reminds me of the saying "you can't get anything for free anymore"
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Jim Morrison
Los Angeles, 1969
I see us all as prisoners to each other in the sense that how often do so many of us "police" our opinions on others and try to control others in general. It seems like today that it's all about eliminating or controlling those around us instead of accepting. The coining of the term "political correctness" is some bent form of gov't mind control no doubt. So hey watch all your P's and Q's everybody big brother is watching. "Do the right thing" - our right thing! They US govt has a 1-800 number to rat out everyone for something these days. Another form of societal fear control. People are getting sued for everything under the sun in the US. IT seems now we can't even trust each other anymore. People always judging everyone else with snide comments and looks, racism is getting worse, there's more war going on now more than ever. We are definitely going backwards it seems.
If we can manage to remove the crime element from society (i.e. ongoing societal gang funding v.s. legalization) we are 75% of the way there to a much more peaceful and happy planet imo.
Same concept behind "Oh god no! don't give them condoms!".
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
Can you please tell me how it works in the US?
My understanding of political correctness is that it stems from sensitivity awareness and extends from psychological or sociological study as a means of bridging gaps and differences. It leads us towards problem solving and away from ostracising those who are the minority. Tons of businesses implement such ideas in order to reap the benefit of connection over separation.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
same difference, they might have interns, but people with pharmacology degrees are behind every transaction.
So why do these girls still need to see the doctor? It makes no sense. Clearly there's no "religious" problem (the drug is allowed), and there's no med-ethical problem (pharmacist can provide the right judgement & med-knowledge)...
Another question: If these girls are "under-age" (minor) and eventually have to see a doctor, does it means their parents are allowed to hear all the details about the case from their doctor, or there is still a doctor-patient privilege?