Augustine

Ahnimus
Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
edited May 2007 in A Moving Train
Yea, so I let a Catholic talk me into reading "Augustine: On Free Choice of the Will"

By page two I'm seeing a problem when he says "Ah yes! That is a problem... but.. GOD!"

For some reason, that just doesn't make sense to me, perhaps a catholic or someone can explain to me, how that makes any sense.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Post edited by Unknown User on
«1345

Comments

  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Well, actually it basically says

    Without free-will there could be no good and no evil. But there is evil, but God cannot be the source of this evil, so he gave us free-will, which allows some of us to do evil.

    But I still question, that God made everything about those people, and must know that giving those people free-will would allow them to do evil. Then God is the source of evil. But the book quickly moves on to other arguments.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    I think you're simply looking at this through the eyes of an athiest. The argument doesn't make any sense unless you actually believe in God.

    I can't really speak for those who believe in God, but I suspect you won't find any believers here who think that God didn't create evil. Through free-will, however, God puts the responsibility for evil actions in Man's hands, since men need not be evil, if they choose good. Again, absent a religious perspective, this argument doesn't make much sense.
  • rebornFixer
    rebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    farfromglorified wrote:
    I think you're simply looking at this through the eyes of an athiest. The argument doesn't make any sense unless you actually believe in God.

    I can't really speak for those who believe in God, but I suspect you won't find any believers here who think that God didn't create evil. Through free-will, however, God puts the responsibility for evil actions in Man's hands, since men need not be evil, if they choose good. Again, absent a religious perspective, this argument doesn't make much sense.

    Indeed ... God may have created evil, but He then turned responsibility for the concept over to us, to be handled via free will. This argument should not be offensive to religious people.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    farfromglorified wrote:
    I think you're simply looking at this through the eyes of an athiest. The argument doesn't make any sense unless you actually believe in God.

    I can't really speak for those who believe in God, but I suspect you won't find any believers here who think that God didn't create evil. Through free-will, however, God puts the responsibility for evil actions in Man's hands, since men need not be evil, if they choose good. Again, absent a religious perspective, this argument doesn't make much sense.

    Right, because the argument hinges on a presupposition of God. Which is why it makes no sense to me.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Right, because the argument hinges on a presupposition of God. Which is why it makes no sense to me.

    But, if I don't presuppose God and I don't presuppose free-will, then it all makes sense.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    think about this then.


    if the world consisted solely and exclusively of goodness and justice, God would not be necesssary, for then the world itself would be God. God exists because evil exists. and this means that God exists because freedom exists.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    catefrances wrote:
    think about this then.


    if the world consisted solely and exclusively of goodness and justice, God would not be necesssary, for then the world itself would be God. God exists because evil exists. and this means that God exists because freedom exists.

    Hehe, good one. You just reversed it. Very smart indeedy.

    I'd be interested in getting to know you better, but I value my life and liver. ;)
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Well, actually it basically says

    Without free-will there could be no good and no evil. But there is evil, but God cannot be the source of this evil, so he gave us free-will, which allows some of us to do evil.

    But I still question, that God made everything about those people, and must know that giving those people free-will would allow them to do evil. Then God is the source of evil. But the book quickly moves on to other arguments.

    what's so hard to get? god wanted people to have the free will to do evil. it makes for more fun watching. i mean, seriously... would you pay to rent a movie where nothing bad happened?
  • crittables
    crittables Posts: 342
    soulsinging wrote:
    what's so hard to get? god wanted people to have the free will to do evil. it makes for more fun watching. i mean, seriously... would you pay to rent a movie where nothing bad happened?



    so god invented evil just to entertain himself? well screw him(or her) then!!
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Hehe, good one. You just reversed it. Very smart indeedy.

    I'd be interested in getting to know you better, but I value my life and liver. ;)


    just remember your place and you'll be just fine ryan. :D


    oh and that wasn't my quote. i am an atheist afterall.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    catefrances wrote:
    just remember your place and you'll be just fine ryan. :D


    oh and that wasn't my quote. i am an atheist afterall.

    Well, I assumed "freedom" meant "free-will" which would make the quote an exact reversal of what Augustine said.

    I.e. "God exists because free-will exists and free-will exists because God exists."
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Well, I assumed "freedom" meant "free-will" which would make the quote an exact reversal of what Augustine said.

    I.e. "God exists because free-will exists and free-will exists because God exists."

    and when you assume you make an ass out of..... :D


    http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Sui-Generis/Berdyaev/
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    crittables wrote:
    so god invented evil just to entertain himself? well screw him(or her) then!!

    i vote yes. if i was god, i woulda. i mean, picture an eternity of sitcoms where people only agree and love each other. where everyone just pats each other on the back and says how wonderful they both are. an entire universe of the flanders family. would YOU want an eternity like that? ;)
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    catefrances wrote:
    and when you assume you make an ass out of..... :D


    http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Sui-Generis/Berdyaev/

    Philosophy ... is the creative perception by the spirit of the meaning of human existence.
    -- Solitude and Society

    Ah shit, so it's my soul that is believing it does not have a soul. Fuck! What a mind-twist. I'm gonna implode!
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • crittables
    crittables Posts: 342
    soulsinging wrote:
    i vote yes. if i was god, i woulda. i mean, picture an eternity of sitcoms where people only agree and love each other. where everyone just pats each other on the back and says how wonderful they both are. an entire universe of the flanders family. would YOU want an eternity like that? ;)


    no, i would not tune into that universe:)
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Ah shit, so it's my soul that is believing it does not have a soul. Fuck! What a mind-twist. I'm gonna implode!

    ooh can i watch? i love a good implosion. :D:D
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    catefrances wrote:
    ooh can i watch? i love a good implosion. :D:D

    Sure, I will charge money though. Why? How can 'I' believe 'I' don't exist. That's why?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    crittables wrote:
    no, i would not tune into that universe:)

    course not. you went to ohio state... we know exactly how much fun it can be to be a little bad ;)
  • boxwine_in_hell
    boxwine_in_hell Posts: 1,263
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Yea, so I let a Catholic talk me into reading "Augustine: On Free Choice of the Will"

    By page two I'm seeing a problem when he says "Ah yes! That is a problem... but.. GOD!"

    For some reason, that just doesn't make sense to me, perhaps a catholic or someone can explain to me, how that makes any sense.

    There is a simple explanation. Augustine was smoking the herb when he wrote.
    one foot in the door
    the other foot in the gutter
    sweet smell that they adore
    I think I'd rather smother
    -The Replacements-
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    boxwine_in_hell wrote:
    There is a simple explanation. Augustine was smoking the herb when he wrote.

    He was definitely smoking a burning bush. This is a translation from latin however. So maybe it's lost something in the translation. Well I got only a few pages into it and read the word "God" probably a dozen times. Hopefully some of the following arguments will be less theistic.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire

Categories