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Augustine

AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
edited May 2007 in A Moving Train
Yea, so I let a Catholic talk me into reading "Augustine: On Free Choice of the Will"

By page two I'm seeing a problem when he says "Ah yes! That is a problem... but.. GOD!"

For some reason, that just doesn't make sense to me, perhaps a catholic or someone can explain to me, how that makes any sense.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Well, actually it basically says

    Without free-will there could be no good and no evil. But there is evil, but God cannot be the source of this evil, so he gave us free-will, which allows some of us to do evil.

    But I still question, that God made everything about those people, and must know that giving those people free-will would allow them to do evil. Then God is the source of evil. But the book quickly moves on to other arguments.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • farfromglorifiedfarfromglorified Posts: 5,696
    I think you're simply looking at this through the eyes of an athiest. The argument doesn't make any sense unless you actually believe in God.

    I can't really speak for those who believe in God, but I suspect you won't find any believers here who think that God didn't create evil. Through free-will, however, God puts the responsibility for evil actions in Man's hands, since men need not be evil, if they choose good. Again, absent a religious perspective, this argument doesn't make much sense.
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    farfromglorified wrote:
    I think you're simply looking at this through the eyes of an athiest. The argument doesn't make any sense unless you actually believe in God.

    I can't really speak for those who believe in God, but I suspect you won't find any believers here who think that God didn't create evil. Through free-will, however, God puts the responsibility for evil actions in Man's hands, since men need not be evil, if they choose good. Again, absent a religious perspective, this argument doesn't make much sense.

    Indeed ... God may have created evil, but He then turned responsibility for the concept over to us, to be handled via free will. This argument should not be offensive to religious people.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    farfromglorified wrote:
    I think you're simply looking at this through the eyes of an athiest. The argument doesn't make any sense unless you actually believe in God.

    I can't really speak for those who believe in God, but I suspect you won't find any believers here who think that God didn't create evil. Through free-will, however, God puts the responsibility for evil actions in Man's hands, since men need not be evil, if they choose good. Again, absent a religious perspective, this argument doesn't make much sense.

    Right, because the argument hinges on a presupposition of God. Which is why it makes no sense to me.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Right, because the argument hinges on a presupposition of God. Which is why it makes no sense to me.

    But, if I don't presuppose God and I don't presuppose free-will, then it all makes sense.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    think about this then.


    if the world consisted solely and exclusively of goodness and justice, God would not be necesssary, for then the world itself would be God. God exists because evil exists. and this means that God exists because freedom exists.
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    catefrances wrote:
    think about this then.


    if the world consisted solely and exclusively of goodness and justice, God would not be necesssary, for then the world itself would be God. God exists because evil exists. and this means that God exists because freedom exists.

    Hehe, good one. You just reversed it. Very smart indeedy.

    I'd be interested in getting to know you better, but I value my life and liver. ;)
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Well, actually it basically says

    Without free-will there could be no good and no evil. But there is evil, but God cannot be the source of this evil, so he gave us free-will, which allows some of us to do evil.

    But I still question, that God made everything about those people, and must know that giving those people free-will would allow them to do evil. Then God is the source of evil. But the book quickly moves on to other arguments.

    what's so hard to get? god wanted people to have the free will to do evil. it makes for more fun watching. i mean, seriously... would you pay to rent a movie where nothing bad happened?
  • crittablescrittables Posts: 342
    soulsinging wrote:
    what's so hard to get? god wanted people to have the free will to do evil. it makes for more fun watching. i mean, seriously... would you pay to rent a movie where nothing bad happened?



    so god invented evil just to entertain himself? well screw him(or her) then!!
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Hehe, good one. You just reversed it. Very smart indeedy.

    I'd be interested in getting to know you better, but I value my life and liver. ;)


    just remember your place and you'll be just fine ryan. :D


    oh and that wasn't my quote. i am an atheist afterall.
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    catefrances wrote:
    just remember your place and you'll be just fine ryan. :D


    oh and that wasn't my quote. i am an atheist afterall.

    Well, I assumed "freedom" meant "free-will" which would make the quote an exact reversal of what Augustine said.

    I.e. "God exists because free-will exists and free-will exists because God exists."
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Well, I assumed "freedom" meant "free-will" which would make the quote an exact reversal of what Augustine said.

    I.e. "God exists because free-will exists and free-will exists because God exists."

    and when you assume you make an ass out of..... :D


    http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Sui-Generis/Berdyaev/
    hear my name
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  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    crittables wrote:
    so god invented evil just to entertain himself? well screw him(or her) then!!

    i vote yes. if i was god, i woulda. i mean, picture an eternity of sitcoms where people only agree and love each other. where everyone just pats each other on the back and says how wonderful they both are. an entire universe of the flanders family. would YOU want an eternity like that? ;)
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    catefrances wrote:
    and when you assume you make an ass out of..... :D


    http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Sui-Generis/Berdyaev/

    Philosophy ... is the creative perception by the spirit of the meaning of human existence.
    -- Solitude and Society

    Ah shit, so it's my soul that is believing it does not have a soul. Fuck! What a mind-twist. I'm gonna implode!
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • crittablescrittables Posts: 342
    soulsinging wrote:
    i vote yes. if i was god, i woulda. i mean, picture an eternity of sitcoms where people only agree and love each other. where everyone just pats each other on the back and says how wonderful they both are. an entire universe of the flanders family. would YOU want an eternity like that? ;)


    no, i would not tune into that universe:)
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Ah shit, so it's my soul that is believing it does not have a soul. Fuck! What a mind-twist. I'm gonna implode!

    ooh can i watch? i love a good implosion. :D:D
    hear my name
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    catefrances wrote:
    ooh can i watch? i love a good implosion. :D:D

    Sure, I will charge money though. Why? How can 'I' believe 'I' don't exist. That's why?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    crittables wrote:
    no, i would not tune into that universe:)

    course not. you went to ohio state... we know exactly how much fun it can be to be a little bad ;)
  • boxwine_in_hellboxwine_in_hell Posts: 1,263
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Yea, so I let a Catholic talk me into reading "Augustine: On Free Choice of the Will"

    By page two I'm seeing a problem when he says "Ah yes! That is a problem... but.. GOD!"

    For some reason, that just doesn't make sense to me, perhaps a catholic or someone can explain to me, how that makes any sense.

    There is a simple explanation. Augustine was smoking the herb when he wrote.
    one foot in the door
    the other foot in the gutter
    sweet smell that they adore
    I think I'd rather smother
    -The Replacements-
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    boxwine_in_hell wrote:
    There is a simple explanation. Augustine was smoking the herb when he wrote.

    He was definitely smoking a burning bush. This is a translation from latin however. So maybe it's lost something in the translation. Well I got only a few pages into it and read the word "God" probably a dozen times. Hopefully some of the following arguments will be less theistic.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    I have to sort of question why he gave me this book. He's a Catholic and knows I'm an atheist. Perhaps from his perspective these were good arguments. But to me they just seem rather hollow.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I have to sort of question why he gave me this book. He's a Catholic and knows I'm an atheist. Perhaps from his perspective these were good arguments. But to me they just seem rather hollow.

    well you know ryan, believers are always trying to save our blasphemic atheist souls. :D
    hear my name
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  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I have to sort of question why he gave me this book. He's a Catholic and knows I'm an atheist. Perhaps from his perspective these were good arguments. But to me they just seem rather hollow.

    maybe he thought you might find it interesting to see what other people think. or maybe he thought you could get over your blustering ego long enough to try to see the world through somebody else's eyes for a few pages.
  • boxwine_in_hellboxwine_in_hell Posts: 1,263
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I have to sort of question why he gave me this book. He's a Catholic and knows I'm an atheist. Perhaps from his perspective these were good arguments. But to me they just seem rather hollow.

    I think it's actually pretty interesting if you approach it philisophically rather than religiously. It's also a good window into how a 4th-5th century person thought about and viewed his world.
    one foot in the door
    the other foot in the gutter
    sweet smell that they adore
    I think I'd rather smother
    -The Replacements-
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    soulsinging wrote:
    maybe he thought you might find it interesting to see what other people think. or maybe he thought you could get over your blustering ego long enough to try to see the world through somebody else's eyes for a few pages.

    He said they were good arguments. He said "it's classic" it is classic alright, but that doesn't make it right. None of it means anything to me so far. It's all a religious perspective, it even has scripture in it. I know what it's like to view it from a religious perspective. It pushes the whole free-will idea. I was born into that perspective.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    boxwine_in_hell wrote:
    I think it's actually pretty interesting if you approach it philisophically rather than religiously. It's also a good window into how a 4th-5th century person thought about and viewed his world.

    It's interesting if God exists and exists exactly as is written in scripture. But that's not likely. I could philosophically say there is a Space Gazebo where space mutants congregate 350 trillion light years from earth. But who is even going to consider that?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • KannKann Posts: 1,146
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Well, actually it basically says

    Without free-will there could be no good and no evil. But there is evil, but God cannot be the source of this evil, so he gave us free-will, which allows some of us to do evil.

    But I still question, that God made everything about those people, and must know that giving those people free-will would allow them to do evil. Then God is the source of evil. But the book quickly moves on to other arguments.

    What that means is that God, in is all goodness lifestyle we all know, created us (and the angels). But he let us (and some angels) choose to ignore him and his words if we wished. As God is ulimate good, if you ignore him and stray away from him you stop to live a "good" life and start going after the evil part. In that way of thought, God didn't create evil, his absence is evil. Ignore God and you're evil. It's an easy trick to explain the presence of God and not get him to be responsible for the evil stuff we all witness.
    And you can't expect to read Augustine and not have a word about God. He lived a long time ago and didn't know as much as you do today Ahnimus.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Augustine wrote:
    We have now, I think, begun to see what the eternal (God's) law can do. We have found out how far the temporal (Man's) law can go in punishing evildoing. We have clearly and carefully distinguished between two sorts of things--eternal and temporal; and in turn between two sorts of human beings--those who pursue and love eternal things, and those who pursue and love temporal things. We have determined that the choice to follow and embrace one or the other lies with the will, and that only the will can depose the mind from its stronghold of power and deprive it of right order. And it has become clear that we should not blame anything when someone uses it wrongly; we should blame the one who uses it wrongly.

    I'll ignore the presupposition of God for this argument. I will say that the church will generally consider love to be good and lust to be bad. But how can we distinguish the two and separate them into eternal and temporal. Most people would admit that lust is an innate drive as well as love. Augustine is suggesting that we are innately aligned with God's will and it takes free-will to 'deprive it of right order'. Thus God is not the source of Evil and individual people are responsible for themselves. However, I do not see lust as a straying of natural order, it's part of natural order. It is different than romantic love and/or attachment, but it facilitates them. It is a primary drive that we are born into and develop during puberty. Augustine is proposing a 'Innate purity' perspective on human nature. However, with simply lust and love as examples and using the Christian dogma as a map, we see that is simply not true.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • RolandTD20KdrummerRolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I'd be interested in getting to know you better, but I value my life and liver. ;)

    Ahhaha...no offence CF, but this is one of the better one liners I've heard lately...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    Ahhaha...no offence CF, but this is one of the better one liners I've heard lately...

    no offense taken roland. ahnimus knows when to quit when he's ahead. :) he don't need no robot to tell him when there's danger.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
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