Options
Gitmo Guards Often Attacked by Detainees!!!
binauralsounds
Posts: 1,357
Gitmo Guards Often Attacked by Detainees
Jul 31 3:15 PM US/Eastern
By JOHN SOLOMON
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON
The prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay during the war on terror have attacked their military guards hundreds of times, turning broken toilet parts, utensils, radios and even a bloody lizard tail into makeshift weapons, Pentagon reports say.
Incident reports reviewed by The Associated Press indicate Military Police guards are routinely head-butted, spat upon and doused by "cocktails" of feces, urine, vomit and sperm collected in meal cups by the prisoners.
They've been repeatedly grabbed, punched or assaulted by prisoners who reach through the small "bean holes" used to deliver food and blankets through cell doors, the reports say. Serious assaults requiring medical attention, however, are rare, the reports indicate.
The detainee "reached under the face mask of an IRF (Initial Reaction Force) team member's helmet and scratched his face, attempting to gouge his eyes," states a May 27, 2005, report on an effort to remove a recalcitrant prisoner from his cell.
"The IRF team member received scratches to his face and eye socket area," the report said.
Since its creation in early 2002, the U.S. detention camp on Cuba's coast has been a controversial symbol of the Bush administration's war on terror, bringing allegations of prisoner mistreatment, debates over civil rights and a landmark legal battle to win rights for the detainees.
At one point, more than 600 foreign men captured in the war on terror were kept there. Many have been released to their home countries, reducing the current population to about 450. Ten detainees have been accused of war crimes, but no one has been tried.
The Supreme Court has ruled that the men are entitled to lawyers and access to the courts and that the administration's original plan to give them justice through military tribunals was illegal.
Guards currently stationed at Guantanamo describe a tense atmosphere in which prisoners often orchestrate violence in hopes of unnerving their captors, especially with attacks using bodily fluids.
"I mean, seeing a human being act that way, it's terrifying. ... You are constantly watching before you take your next step to see if something is about to happen," Navy Senior Chief Petty Officer Mack D. Keen told AP in an interview from Guantanamo.
"You see little signs. They kind of show their hand every once in a while. They'll take their Quran and they'll cover it up," he said. "When you see a group of detainees taking their Quran and putting it away, you know something is about to happen."
Moazamm Begg, 38, a prisoner for more than two years at Guantanamo before being released to Great Britain, said he was suspicious of the Pentagon's description of incidents, especially allegations that Muslim men tore their Qurans or used sperm in attacks. The Pentagon continues to publicly question Begg's claim of innocence.
"This just doesn't make sense _ especially since for Muslims this would be something that was disgusting, something that just wouldn't be done," he said. He added that some detainees told him they had mixed toothpaste and spit in the cocktails to make it look like semen.
Begg, who has written a book and spoken frequently about his experience, said most incidents he witnessed were spontaneous reactions "when word spread" among prisoners that a guard had done something wrong.
"I rarely saw lone prisoners acting out on their own for no reason except if they had some sort of mental illness or if they were on medication," he said.
Nonetheless, the incident reports released under the Freedom of Information Act and reviewed by AP, provide a rare chronicle of events inside the prison from the guards' perspective.
Entire wings of prisoners were reported to become riotous after complaints emerged that guards mishandled a Quran or mistreated prisoners. On two occasions, however, prisoners themselves were reported to have destroyed their Muslim holy books, the reports state.
"Detainee residing in cell (redacted) block tore his Quran into small pieces," a guard reported in May 2003. A month later, a prisoner "did intentionally destroy his Quran and throw (it) out of his cell," another report stated.
The reports detail more than 440 incidents between guards and prisoners from December 2002 through summer 2005 that resulted in recommendations of discipline, an average of about three per week. The names of guards and prisoners as well as the final discipline were blacked out by the Pentagon.
Often, guards went weeks without reporting problems; other times incidents were bunched together during times of frustration and tension.
For instance, nearly a quarter of the incidents occurred in July 2005, the month dozens of detainees started an extended hunger strike.
Tensions likewise flared during Christmas week 2004, with inmates frequently spitting on guards. On Christmas Eve, a prisoner who was angry that he couldn't finish his meal was said to have used a plastic fork-spoon utensil _ called a spork _ to attack a guard collecting his tray.
"Detainee stabbed the MP guard ... in the hand with his spork from chow meal," the report said, adding the prisoner later "made a slicing motion across his neck" and vowed to kill the guard.
With many nearing five years in U.S. captivity, the prisoners "have a Ph.D. in being a detainee" and "know our procedures and they try to turn them against us and try to make us question what we are doing," said Army Lt. Col. Michael J. Nicolucci, the prison's executive officer.
"They'll take the smallest things, be it a piece of rust," he said. "They told us they are going to take that piece of rust and they are going for the jugular, they are going for the eye. They know what our vulnerabilities are, anatomically speaking."
Meal plates, shower flip-flops, cleaning brushes and other items deemed harmless in civilian life also are commonly turned into weapons, the reports said. For instance:
_"Detainee in cell (redacted) grabbed the radio from an MP and then threw the radio at the MP. The detainee then threw rocks at the MP," a Dec. 23, 2003, incident report stated.
_A detainee "reached out of his bean hole and attacked MP (name redacted) with a piece of metal foot pad from toilet striking him on the left hip area," a July 15, 2005, report said.
_"Detainee broke off the top of his sink, subsequently broke out the window then began throwing the sink and pieces of pipes at the Block Guard," a March 25, 2005, report said.
One of the most unusual incidents detailed in the four-inch stack of incident reports occurred when a detainee in the prison recreation yard assaulted a guard with a bloody tail torn from a lizard.
The detainee "caught the iguana by the tail at which time the tail detached," the May 2005 report described. When the guard turned to talk to a commanding officer, "he felt something strike him in the lower right back" and then "saw the tail on the ground at his feet and blood was in the same area of his uniform." The detainee said he was "just playing."
Nicolucci said one of the most serious incidents occurred this May, too recent to be recorded in the Pentagon's released reports. A prisoner staged an apparent suicide attempt while his inmates slicked the floors with human waste, seeking to overpower guards when they slipped, he said.
"We provide fans in order to keep them cool," Nicolucci recalled. "And they were using the basket, or the grate of the fan as a shield, the blades as machetes, the pole as a battering ram."
That disturbance was turned back in a few minutes with some guards and prisoners sustaining minor injuries, he said.
The Landmark Legal Foundation, a conservative legal group that fought to force the Pentagon to release the reports under the Freedom of Information Act, said it hopes the information brings balance to the Guantanamo debate.
"Lawyers for the detainees have done a great job painting their clients as innocent victims of U.S. abuse when the fact is that these detainees, as a group, are barbaric and extremely dangerous," Landmark President Mark Levin said. "They are using their terrorist training on the battlefield to abuse our guards and manipulate our Congress and our court system."
Though all detainees are foreigners, many are clearly Americanized when it comes to their insults and gestures. Male guards are frequently derided as "donkeys" while female guards are routinely called "bitches" or harassed by references to their breasts or genitalia, the reports said.
In all, nearly a quarter of incidents involved female guards, the reports show.
"They absolutely target female guards," Nicolucci said. "They have a lot of cultural biases about females, and we let them know in our culture that females do everything males do in a professional job environment, and we just hold firm."
James A. Gondles Jr., executive director of the American Correctional Association that sets standards for U.S. prisons, said much behavior inside Guantanamo mirrors that of civilian prisons though the attacks with bodily fluids seem more numerous.
"It happens from time to time at facilities here, but it seems the majority of ... assaults at Gitmo were either spitting, or bodily fluids being thrown on the guards," said Gondles, who has visited Guantanamo twice at the Pentagon's invitation and reviewed the reports at AP's request.
The bodily fluid attacks are so numerous that guards now frequently wear specialized shields to protect their faces.
The incident reports show waves of orchestrated behavior.
For instance, prisoners repeatedly grabbed their guards' whistles over a five-day period in June 2004. In July 2005, guards reported several instances of rock throwing, spitting and flip-flop hitting. Rocks were hidden under shower mats, the reports said.
The incident reports also are noteworthy for information that is missing. With redacted names, it is impossible to tell whether bad behavior is widespread or the work of a few repeat offenders. Likewise, the documents don't tell whether certain guards are prone to confrontation.
Prisoners' hunger strikes, suicide attempts and threats to injure themselves aren't considered disciplinary matters and thus aren't recorded in the incident reports. Yet the Pentagon acknowledges there have been scores of such incidents.
Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., a prisoner of war during Vietnam, said the treatment of the guards has been overshadowed by the legal and political debates surrounding the detainees, but he has been impressed with the guards' professionalism.
"Our personnel there have perhaps the most difficult task you can have in the military outside of being in a combat zone. ... These are bad guys and some of the most hardened of hardened criminals. And some I think will need to be kept permanently," he said.
McCain said the detainees' behavior and the likelihood of permanent confinement only hastens the need for the administration and Congress to finalize detention and trial policies consistent with the Supreme Court's direction.
While Washington addresses those questions, the guards look to stay one step ahead of the detainees.
"Yes, you do get upset but you get somebody to take your place," Keen said in explaining how he survives the tensions of the cell block. "You go outside. You walk it off and you come back and (say) I want to be back in the fight."
Jul 31 3:15 PM US/Eastern
By JOHN SOLOMON
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON
The prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay during the war on terror have attacked their military guards hundreds of times, turning broken toilet parts, utensils, radios and even a bloody lizard tail into makeshift weapons, Pentagon reports say.
Incident reports reviewed by The Associated Press indicate Military Police guards are routinely head-butted, spat upon and doused by "cocktails" of feces, urine, vomit and sperm collected in meal cups by the prisoners.
They've been repeatedly grabbed, punched or assaulted by prisoners who reach through the small "bean holes" used to deliver food and blankets through cell doors, the reports say. Serious assaults requiring medical attention, however, are rare, the reports indicate.
The detainee "reached under the face mask of an IRF (Initial Reaction Force) team member's helmet and scratched his face, attempting to gouge his eyes," states a May 27, 2005, report on an effort to remove a recalcitrant prisoner from his cell.
"The IRF team member received scratches to his face and eye socket area," the report said.
Since its creation in early 2002, the U.S. detention camp on Cuba's coast has been a controversial symbol of the Bush administration's war on terror, bringing allegations of prisoner mistreatment, debates over civil rights and a landmark legal battle to win rights for the detainees.
At one point, more than 600 foreign men captured in the war on terror were kept there. Many have been released to their home countries, reducing the current population to about 450. Ten detainees have been accused of war crimes, but no one has been tried.
The Supreme Court has ruled that the men are entitled to lawyers and access to the courts and that the administration's original plan to give them justice through military tribunals was illegal.
Guards currently stationed at Guantanamo describe a tense atmosphere in which prisoners often orchestrate violence in hopes of unnerving their captors, especially with attacks using bodily fluids.
"I mean, seeing a human being act that way, it's terrifying. ... You are constantly watching before you take your next step to see if something is about to happen," Navy Senior Chief Petty Officer Mack D. Keen told AP in an interview from Guantanamo.
"You see little signs. They kind of show their hand every once in a while. They'll take their Quran and they'll cover it up," he said. "When you see a group of detainees taking their Quran and putting it away, you know something is about to happen."
Moazamm Begg, 38, a prisoner for more than two years at Guantanamo before being released to Great Britain, said he was suspicious of the Pentagon's description of incidents, especially allegations that Muslim men tore their Qurans or used sperm in attacks. The Pentagon continues to publicly question Begg's claim of innocence.
"This just doesn't make sense _ especially since for Muslims this would be something that was disgusting, something that just wouldn't be done," he said. He added that some detainees told him they had mixed toothpaste and spit in the cocktails to make it look like semen.
Begg, who has written a book and spoken frequently about his experience, said most incidents he witnessed were spontaneous reactions "when word spread" among prisoners that a guard had done something wrong.
"I rarely saw lone prisoners acting out on their own for no reason except if they had some sort of mental illness or if they were on medication," he said.
Nonetheless, the incident reports released under the Freedom of Information Act and reviewed by AP, provide a rare chronicle of events inside the prison from the guards' perspective.
Entire wings of prisoners were reported to become riotous after complaints emerged that guards mishandled a Quran or mistreated prisoners. On two occasions, however, prisoners themselves were reported to have destroyed their Muslim holy books, the reports state.
"Detainee residing in cell (redacted) block tore his Quran into small pieces," a guard reported in May 2003. A month later, a prisoner "did intentionally destroy his Quran and throw (it) out of his cell," another report stated.
The reports detail more than 440 incidents between guards and prisoners from December 2002 through summer 2005 that resulted in recommendations of discipline, an average of about three per week. The names of guards and prisoners as well as the final discipline were blacked out by the Pentagon.
Often, guards went weeks without reporting problems; other times incidents were bunched together during times of frustration and tension.
For instance, nearly a quarter of the incidents occurred in July 2005, the month dozens of detainees started an extended hunger strike.
Tensions likewise flared during Christmas week 2004, with inmates frequently spitting on guards. On Christmas Eve, a prisoner who was angry that he couldn't finish his meal was said to have used a plastic fork-spoon utensil _ called a spork _ to attack a guard collecting his tray.
"Detainee stabbed the MP guard ... in the hand with his spork from chow meal," the report said, adding the prisoner later "made a slicing motion across his neck" and vowed to kill the guard.
With many nearing five years in U.S. captivity, the prisoners "have a Ph.D. in being a detainee" and "know our procedures and they try to turn them against us and try to make us question what we are doing," said Army Lt. Col. Michael J. Nicolucci, the prison's executive officer.
"They'll take the smallest things, be it a piece of rust," he said. "They told us they are going to take that piece of rust and they are going for the jugular, they are going for the eye. They know what our vulnerabilities are, anatomically speaking."
Meal plates, shower flip-flops, cleaning brushes and other items deemed harmless in civilian life also are commonly turned into weapons, the reports said. For instance:
_"Detainee in cell (redacted) grabbed the radio from an MP and then threw the radio at the MP. The detainee then threw rocks at the MP," a Dec. 23, 2003, incident report stated.
_A detainee "reached out of his bean hole and attacked MP (name redacted) with a piece of metal foot pad from toilet striking him on the left hip area," a July 15, 2005, report said.
_"Detainee broke off the top of his sink, subsequently broke out the window then began throwing the sink and pieces of pipes at the Block Guard," a March 25, 2005, report said.
One of the most unusual incidents detailed in the four-inch stack of incident reports occurred when a detainee in the prison recreation yard assaulted a guard with a bloody tail torn from a lizard.
The detainee "caught the iguana by the tail at which time the tail detached," the May 2005 report described. When the guard turned to talk to a commanding officer, "he felt something strike him in the lower right back" and then "saw the tail on the ground at his feet and blood was in the same area of his uniform." The detainee said he was "just playing."
Nicolucci said one of the most serious incidents occurred this May, too recent to be recorded in the Pentagon's released reports. A prisoner staged an apparent suicide attempt while his inmates slicked the floors with human waste, seeking to overpower guards when they slipped, he said.
"We provide fans in order to keep them cool," Nicolucci recalled. "And they were using the basket, or the grate of the fan as a shield, the blades as machetes, the pole as a battering ram."
That disturbance was turned back in a few minutes with some guards and prisoners sustaining minor injuries, he said.
The Landmark Legal Foundation, a conservative legal group that fought to force the Pentagon to release the reports under the Freedom of Information Act, said it hopes the information brings balance to the Guantanamo debate.
"Lawyers for the detainees have done a great job painting their clients as innocent victims of U.S. abuse when the fact is that these detainees, as a group, are barbaric and extremely dangerous," Landmark President Mark Levin said. "They are using their terrorist training on the battlefield to abuse our guards and manipulate our Congress and our court system."
Though all detainees are foreigners, many are clearly Americanized when it comes to their insults and gestures. Male guards are frequently derided as "donkeys" while female guards are routinely called "bitches" or harassed by references to their breasts or genitalia, the reports said.
In all, nearly a quarter of incidents involved female guards, the reports show.
"They absolutely target female guards," Nicolucci said. "They have a lot of cultural biases about females, and we let them know in our culture that females do everything males do in a professional job environment, and we just hold firm."
James A. Gondles Jr., executive director of the American Correctional Association that sets standards for U.S. prisons, said much behavior inside Guantanamo mirrors that of civilian prisons though the attacks with bodily fluids seem more numerous.
"It happens from time to time at facilities here, but it seems the majority of ... assaults at Gitmo were either spitting, or bodily fluids being thrown on the guards," said Gondles, who has visited Guantanamo twice at the Pentagon's invitation and reviewed the reports at AP's request.
The bodily fluid attacks are so numerous that guards now frequently wear specialized shields to protect their faces.
The incident reports show waves of orchestrated behavior.
For instance, prisoners repeatedly grabbed their guards' whistles over a five-day period in June 2004. In July 2005, guards reported several instances of rock throwing, spitting and flip-flop hitting. Rocks were hidden under shower mats, the reports said.
The incident reports also are noteworthy for information that is missing. With redacted names, it is impossible to tell whether bad behavior is widespread or the work of a few repeat offenders. Likewise, the documents don't tell whether certain guards are prone to confrontation.
Prisoners' hunger strikes, suicide attempts and threats to injure themselves aren't considered disciplinary matters and thus aren't recorded in the incident reports. Yet the Pentagon acknowledges there have been scores of such incidents.
Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., a prisoner of war during Vietnam, said the treatment of the guards has been overshadowed by the legal and political debates surrounding the detainees, but he has been impressed with the guards' professionalism.
"Our personnel there have perhaps the most difficult task you can have in the military outside of being in a combat zone. ... These are bad guys and some of the most hardened of hardened criminals. And some I think will need to be kept permanently," he said.
McCain said the detainees' behavior and the likelihood of permanent confinement only hastens the need for the administration and Congress to finalize detention and trial policies consistent with the Supreme Court's direction.
While Washington addresses those questions, the guards look to stay one step ahead of the detainees.
"Yes, you do get upset but you get somebody to take your place," Keen said in explaining how he survives the tensions of the cell block. "You go outside. You walk it off and you come back and (say) I want to be back in the fight."
Post edited by Unknown User on
0
Comments
And Bush too!
And the American Radical Right
www.myspace.com/jensvad
So, if you had to be there all day…guarding terrorists and criminals (let's not pretend that they're all innocent farmers and goat herders)…getting spat upon, having feces thrown at you, getting bitten, punched, yelled at, etc…then you could understand and relate to how a guard might every now and then take out their anger upon an inmate in a physical manner…
Right?
High Traffic ART EZI FTJ JSR KPA PCD SYN ULX VLB YHF
Low Traffic CIO MIW
Non Traffic ABC BAY FDU GBZ HNC NDP OEM ROV TMS ZWL
In this case we know...the United States gov't put these men in cages...that came first.
Why did they put them in cages? Because these men associate themselve with a group of people who killed 3,000 innocent people on 9/11.
High Traffic ART EZI FTJ JSR KPA PCD SYN ULX VLB YHF
Low Traffic CIO MIW
Non Traffic ABC BAY FDU GBZ HNC NDP OEM ROV TMS ZWL
Wow....same thinking you use JUSTIFYING the killing innocent civilians in Lebanon.....its okay to hurt the inncents because there are some bad guys around...your totally saying its okay to do wrong on those who don't deserve...now I know you love your religion (which I respect) but where does God or Jesus justify the hurting/killing of innocents, regardless of evil that may surround him?
I dont understand people like you that think this way. You act and behave so piously (which is not necessarily a bad thing if the intent is good); yet try to justify this killing....when its the "God hating" side (which seems to be used to generalize the group that goes against these actions, although there are many that are of true faith and see the evil that is occuring for what it is) that truly want peace and act and behave that way because WE ARE THE ONES promoting peace yet your view takes one of violence as its route. From the good book it would seem that we were ones that follow and actually listen to the teachings of Christ...the religious right here (some) act as they represent their faith....I would be unimpressed having to share the faith with those who share and promote violence....its so against your beliefs I just don't get it....can you explain how you can believe so deeply in your faith but can look by the killing of innocents as just necessity to do the "job"....funny cause thats the exact same thing your enemy does that makes them your enemy.....
I'd explain, but I might get raptured in the middle of my paragraph. I'd hate to leave you wondering how I would justify it.
High Traffic ART EZI FTJ JSR KPA PCD SYN ULX VLB YHF
Low Traffic CIO MIW
Non Traffic ABC BAY FDU GBZ HNC NDP OEM ROV TMS ZWL
I am being serious....
And what guarantee do I have that when I'm done typing out 10 minutes worth of serious answers that you won't make some snide rapture joke?
High Traffic ART EZI FTJ JSR KPA PCD SYN ULX VLB YHF
Low Traffic CIO MIW
Non Traffic ABC BAY FDU GBZ HNC NDP OEM ROV TMS ZWL
Trust me....I promise I wont crack a rapture joke...just something I was thinking and I would really like to hear what you have to say...most likely will not change my mind but I will not jump on you...any arguements will be in the form in a civilized manner...
lol...just laughing at what I wrote...soon we will need contracts on here to argue...I promise to talk in a civlized manner....made me laugh...anyway I am being serious....Im feeling civilized tonight....
Fine. I'll give it a try. All innocent deaths are a tragedy. I don't support killing innocents in order to "get the job done". I've never said that. I have, however, stated that I support destroying infrastructure that these terrorists use to further their cause. Roads, electric plants, shelter, etc. If they choose to use Lebanon as a base of operations, then I think Israel has the right to destroy that infrastructure in order to stop them. Note that I said infrastructure…not child with lollipop who is starving. Does shit happen in the process? Yes, it does. I admit that, and I always have. On both sides. Does destroying an electric plant have an effect on that child? Yes. But so do rockets falling on cities in Haifa. If the Lebonese people want peace and harmony, then rise up and kick Hezzbollah out. Do something.
Jesus, the Bible and God never support hurting innocent civilians. However, the Bible does give us justification to defend ourselves from those who are trying to commit evil acts upon us. We have that right. The Bible also makes it clear that Israel is the apple of God's eye, and that those who stand against Israel will be cut down…and that in the end…(during that rapture time;)) Jesus will be the one who will finally bring true peace to the land of Israel. No one else will be able to do it. Israel is God's chosen land, therefore I choose to side with his people.
Does this make firing a Hellfire missle into a school known to be filled with Palestenian kids a justifiable act? No, and I've never tried to justify those acts. I don't act piously. I've never said that I'm better than anyone else, or that I'm more holy, or that I don't sin or make all kinds of mistakes. Quite the opposite. Speaking of my faith, and being confident in my words does not equate into being pious or arrogant. I often times think that people are scared off by my dedication to my faith, and have a hard time understanding why I'm so inflexible on that topic.
The peace you promote…no offense, just my two cents…is a false peace. Yes, I said that. It's a false peace that will never actually come. Only Christ can bring the peace that you're speaking about. That's not to say that we should just nuke the crap out of anybody we want because we can never achieve peace in the MidEast…but…it doesn't mean that Israel must stand passively by while othere nations try to destroy it.
High Traffic ART EZI FTJ JSR KPA PCD SYN ULX VLB YHF
Low Traffic CIO MIW
Non Traffic ABC BAY FDU GBZ HNC NDP OEM ROV TMS ZWL
Thanks but I have got to run...I will comment tommorrow no time right now...however I believe we as human beings can bring about peace ourselves.....that is what I have my faith in.....but thats cool. Thanks I will respond more tommorrow.....
Wonderfully put!! However, won't the anti Christ bring a FALSE peace first? Thus deceiving masses he is the messiah and being allowed into the rebuilt temple?
Also notice my thread bout showdown at the temple mount. It's coming SOON!!!!!!
Thank you.
I agree, I read it! I'm about to post a thread about some Temple info for anyone who wants to read it.
High Traffic ART EZI FTJ JSR KPA PCD SYN ULX VLB YHF
Low Traffic CIO MIW
Non Traffic ABC BAY FDU GBZ HNC NDP OEM ROV TMS ZWL
I first thought, though I may be wrong, that we should love thy enemy.
Secondly can you lead me to disticnt passages in the Bible where the Rapture is discussed?
If you believe so much in the teachings of the Bible, can I hear your thoughts on interest on money. From what I have read it distincly says no usury (something like that) should be applied to money. Therefore we live in age of loans and interest, hell that's how our nations run. Does that make us all complacent in a national sin?
Do you believe that the planet Earth was given to humans to does as they please, or as I choose to phrase it as "rape and pillage"? If we are the ultimate beings why have other planets surrounding us? What is the point?
You see to me religion cannot answer common questions without cryptic respones. However I still say killing is a universal crime and from the readings I have done it should never be committed unless maybe directly threatened. Therefore these errant missles that kill those that have nothing to do with the crime, according to your logic many of servicemen belong in hell for killing innocents regardless if you are against it.
Where do you get your faith from? How do you explain those people that are born in Papa New Guinea where they were isolated from modern civiliaztion until the past 150 years. In my understanding how could they have ever learned from the teachings of Christ...does that mean that countless generations of these peoples were destined to hell? That does not seem remotely fair. Another question I never hear an answer from on this board. If you were so correct then we obviously are all on this planet should be aware of Christ if God placed us here, however we are not which is paradoxical to me. Thousands have never even heard of religion therefore will never even have a choice to make to for or against it.
Do you not think that religion was created to put forth answers to unknown questions? A faith to make us believe that we are the supreme beings that we believe we are (which we are not...as we are flawed beyond countless ways...we still can somehow justify killing each other which sickens me).
And no people do not fear your faith they just cannot understand your logic because to us it is filled with so many holes an elephant could fall through. You can say everything comes back just to having faith but that is not how I choose to see things. You can wait around for something to happen...Im here to make an actual difference in my shot at life.
As for the rapture again, to me it sounds that your somewhat pleased on what is going on, am I correct? Correct me if I am wrong. For without this violence this rapture like prophecy could not occur. To be happy, if you so are, suggests to me you enjoy the violence to some level, which to me goes against your faith so blantantly it seems to be the ultimate hypocracy......
I can't speak for him, but I don't think he is happy with the "violence"! However, I, only see this violence as a sign that Christ told to watch for and to know that when this happens, all should know that the time is near for his return. Having said that, I think it's more of a happiness knowing that Jesus will return! Not happy with the murdering!
But yet it is your group that does not denounce the killings...which to me is just as bad. You choose to support one side and that right there shows assocaition regardless if you choose to believe it. Support is furthering the cause and that cause is leading to unecessary death which is a sin.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
I agree.....
From what I gather from the Bible, there is a time to turn the other cheek, and a time to stand and fight. That's my interpretation.
1 Thesselonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. There is much debate about this passage, and many varying views…pre-trib rapture, post trib rapture, etc. You know my view. It's considered "pre-trib" "Trib" as in the "tribulation period". AKA-The reign of the anti-christ on earth and all the blood and sackcloth / suffering stuff. Yes, the Bible never mentions the word "rapture", it's simply a word that references a passage and views on a certain topic found WITHIN the Bible.
Money is a tool we use to live. Nothing more or less. Like anything else, if you become too greedy and materialistic with it, it becomes sinful and destructive.
I think we are suppossed to be stewards of the Earth, and that we should protect it. It's a gift from God. I believe the Heavens (stars and moons) are there to showcase God's glory to us. Not to show off, but to show us what he has in store for us in Heaven. What he can do for us. Only God decides who goes to Heaven and Hell, because he's the only one who knows what is in our hearts and minds. I believe that murderes can be saved, and that some good people will go to hell because they never accepted Christ as their savior. Maybe those who launched errant missles will go to hell, but I don't know. I do think it's much more evil to actually TARGET innocent civilians and kill them, as oppossed to trying to AVOID civilian death, and still killing them. The result is the same, yes. However, I think the intent is vastly different, and therefore worthy of redemption.
From my parents, friends, envrionment and my own life experiences. I believe that there are select groups of people who will get into Heaven "automatically". Those include people who have never heard the message of Christ, newborn children who can't understand the message, and those who are to mentally handicapped to understand his message. In other words, God will protect the weak, sick, and innocent…just like the Bible talks about.
No. My faith doesn't build me up as a Supreme being. If anything, it has allowed me to realize how UN-supreme I really am, and to understand that Christ is the one who is supreme. I do think people seek out answers in all kinds of religions though. Kabala, Buddhism, etc.
That's fine. However, I can only choose to explain myself so many times. If you think my answers are flawed or hypocritical, then so be it.
I'm not pleased about the violence. Not at all. I not surprised by it either though…because…as a Christian, I'm commanded by God and the Bible to watch for these signs and events. Why? To be prepared for Christ's return, and to spread his message to others. Pleased? No. Watchful and aware? Yes.
High Traffic ART EZI FTJ JSR KPA PCD SYN ULX VLB YHF
Low Traffic CIO MIW
Non Traffic ABC BAY FDU GBZ HNC NDP OEM ROV TMS ZWL
i find this cynism sad, but unsurprising these days. What can a man do.
To quote the movie "Walk the Line":
Record Exec to Johnny Cash: "Your fans are good wholesome Christians. They don't like you playing to criminals, felons...."
Cash: "That means they aren't really Christians."
That's it.
I'm off to bed. Goodnight.
Im not trying to be cynical...but I think these thoughts each and everyday. I respect true Christains...ones that do not promote violence, those who love openly, etc. However it seems these Christians are getting hard to find....and for that matter those of other faiths. Where my faith is in science and evidence...I have faith in this planet...I believe we are not sub-ordinate species that cannot control the fate of ourselves and feel that we have to wait for Armagendon is fruitless....lets change the world ourselves....however each to their own I guess.....I just feel that I find myself more at peace and wanting to promote peace more than the actual religion itself that describes peace....
Thanks hailhailkc I appreciate the dialogue.....
So there is no distinct relation to the rapture than in the Bible...it seems a little contrived from my point of view....I understand the entire Armagedon (Revelations) and that such...I have read the Testaments many times in my life....very good read and helps me spiritually, and that is I view them...a book on how to lead a good life and how to become a great person...that is something that i commende......to me it seems that someone thought of the rapture concept from that passage...however its legitmacy to the original author is a mystery as it is cryptic....
It still states in the Bible usury is illegal...I find it a huge hypocracy that exists within Western Civilization that obviously has its foundations built upon Christian faith....IMHO our governments perform a shoddy job in goverance and to use excuses about Biblical morality to refute homosexual marriage (for example) yet if I was to describe the legality of interest in relation to the holy texts people would laugh at me...right there it seems our nations are dictating what WE want to take from the Bible...which as I understand is still sin regardless of abuse or not.....however I am not a bank and neither are you so we I guess we are clear from this charge.....
OKay I see what you are getting at....I must admit science can put forth more answers than religion...however we have seen many times in the past how science can most definetly be incorrect..however we have discovered some eternal truths....I like to believe that science itself...the study and explaination of our existence and surroundings is simply an experimental religion....to me religion was created for man to logically comprehend our very existence...science is simply doing that but actually applying physical evidence to prove things....however both involve some sort of faith.....
Why do these people get a free pass? Why create this people to have them never understand the true faith? Why should we be tested or for that matter punished? Murderers still exist within these groups would they still be allowed a free pass?
I do also feel small in the grand scheme of universally thinking.
Just as you may not understand my logic/faith...each to their own..however I do respect you....
Cool, I was not trying to insult you by saying that you did enjoy the violence....just questioning if you did.
Later.