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Seven U.S. marines, sailor charged with murder

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  • Purple HawkPurple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    El_Kabong wrote:
    Bush: “I would like to remind you that when the inspectors first went into Iraq and were denied (1998), finally denied access, a report came out of the Atomic -the IAEA- that they were 6 months away from developing a weapon. I don’t know what more evidence we need.”
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/09/20020907-2.html

    IAEA: “There’s never been a report like that from this agency.”
    if you search for Mark Gwozdecky(the IAEA chief spokesman) and bush and some keywords from bush's quote above you can find plenty of sites that list this. but here's the nuclear control institute's site and it has these quotes listed complete w/ references and websites for htem
    http://www.nci.org/02NCI/09/iraq-pr9302002.htm

    IAEA's 1998 report: “Based on all credible information to date the IAEA has found no indication of Iraq having achieved a nuclear weapons program or of Iraq having retained a physical capability for the production of weapon-useable nuclear material or having clandestinely obtained such material.”

    the IAEA 1998 report on Iraq is here, here is the link to the assessment. you can see it is the opposite of what bush said
    http://www.iaea.org/worldatom/Programmes/ActionTeam/nwp2.html#assess

    Scott McClellan: "He's referring to 1991 there, in '91, there was a report saying that after the war they found out they were about six months away."

    i'm sure you won't accept it but here's the best one i could find...all the links point to the washington times article which is no longer on their site

    http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/10.01B.no.report.htm

    The White House says Mr. Bush was referring to an earlier IAEA report. "He's referring to 1991 there," said Deputy Press Secretary Scott McClellan. "In '91, there was a report saying that after the war they found out they were about six months away."

    Mr. Gwozdecky said no such report was ever issued by the IAEA in 1991. Many news agencies -- including The Washington Times -- reported Mr. Bush's Sept. 7 comments as referring to a 1998 IAEA report. The White House did not ask for a correction from The Times.

    To clear up the confusion, Mr. McClellan cited two news articles from 1991 -- a July 16 story in the London Times by Michael Evans and a July 18 story in the New York Times by Paul Lewis. But neither article cites an IAEA report on Iraq's nuclear-weapons program or states that Saddam was only six months away from "developing a weapon" -- as claimed by Mr. Bush. The article by Mr. Evans says: "Jay Davis, an American expert working for the U.N. special commission charged with removing Iraq's nuclear capability, said Iraq was only six months away from the large-scale production of enriched uranium at two plants inspected by UN officials."


    as for rummy's comment:

    http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/04/rumsfeld.iraq/index.html

    http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002463146

    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/269394_rumsfeld08.html?source=mypi

    http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/05/08/my_meeting_with_rumsfeld.php

    Again to repeat...I didn't ask for a list of claims...I asked for evidence of LIES
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • rightonduderightondude Posts: 745
    saddam paid terroists and had connections to al dean...errrr zarqawi....and if you don't think saddam had wmd's...you're as clueless as the idiots going to see the al gore movie.

    There were no WMD's because the US didn't want to find them. If they found and removed the WMD's (threat) it would be mission accomplished. A lot of troops would then come home and things would wind down. You see, the US wants to keep as many troops as possible, for as long as possible, in the middle east.

    Don't you think the US could have fabricated WMD's at any time? Hell they made and sold them way back in the first place. They could have pulled bunkers of missles out of thin air if they wanted with a snap of their fingers and claimed victory...but they didn't. And they didn't want to.

    Do you know why?
  • How dare any of you sitting in a comfy 1st world country pass judgement or pretend to understand anything about what truly is going on over there. Please people read a book or something.

    First: Iraqis are killing each other in the hundreds and thousans for what?..to kill 2 or 3 US soldiers. They are killing their neighbors and random strangers on the street (and kids for god's sake!) who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Some of you support or justify this?!?!?! Every Iraqi right now is born, lives, and dies knowing only death and murder as a method of solving any problem (and we are truly not helping the situation). It's so sad how little value is placed on human life by the Iraqis "over there" (yeah yeah yeah I'll get to our soldiers too, don't get your panties in a knot...yet). It's not a judgement, it's a statement of fact. It's not their fault it's all they've ever known. Anyone here who claims to support the insurgency is clearly not human (this dosen't mean you a Dubya lover...there's a distinction).

    Now to our soilders: The Marines responsible for the killings should get the maximum punishment possible THEY DESERVE IT. Why is it that we have so much trouble putting ourselves in other people's shoes. Can you imange what it's like being 18 or 19 again? Can you imagine what it's like living every day in literal hell while forgeing the strongest friendships you will ever know living with the knowledge that any day can be your last with a senseless death for you or them? Can you imagine the flashpoint of pain you feel when one of your "blood friends" is killed senselessly right before your eyes? No you can't. Because Michael Moore went so out of his way in his movie to portray our soildiers over there as depraved monsters. But yall ate it up and asked for more and never bothered to actually question anything like properly deprogrammed drones are supposed to right? What it all basically came down to was is if Dubya was wrong then no one else can be. And let me tell you something Michael Moore thought his message was so important that he lied and changed evidence to support his case. People open your eyes, just because you disagree with something DON'T IGNORE IT. And you know what, you deserve your ignorance, and blind trust, and I hope it's painful. Goose and gander it was wrong for Dubya it's wrong for Moore.

    Don't sit here and pass judgment on any of them. You're sitting comfortably at home and the majority of you would not go and serve in Iraq. I wouldn't either, but I don't pretend I'm better than they are.

    We need our troops to come home. At least they have to stop dying.

    Next!
    Confucious Says: He who buries a man's wife alive, should not expect to sit at that man's dinner table without the subject coming up.
  • MrBrianMrBrian Posts: 2,673

    Don't sit here and pass judgment on any of them. You're sitting comfortably at home and the majority of you would not go and serve in Iraq. I wouldn't either, but I don't pretend I'm better than they are.


    Next!

    I can't speak for the posters on the board, but only for myself, you are correct, I would not serve in Iraq. why? Because i'm not an idiot.
    and yes I am better than they are, I don't kill or take part in the invasions of other countries, those are bad things.
  • MrBrian wrote:
    I can't speak for the posters on the board, but only for myself, you are correct, I would not serve in Iraq. why? Because i'm not an idiot.
    and yes I am better than they are, I don't kill or take part in the invasions of other countries, those are bad things.

    I would not server because I beleive there is nothing to be accomplished there and I do not want to die for that nothing. However I seriously doubt that any soilder joined or is now joining with the purpose of "invasions of other countries" most of them sadly is because they want their educations paid for if it dose not cost them their life or limb, wanted to truly defend this nation (mostly previous to Iraq and certanly not with the intetion of what's going on over there), or sadly beleve that there is still good to be acomplished over there.

    I know people in the service and I thank them however misguided they are. For each one of them you hate for doing so they probably have it somewhere in the back of their mind (i hope) that they are at best preventing a draft..or at least postponing it until the next crisis requiring our military (if we don't leave Iraq first).
    Confucious Says: He who buries a man's wife alive, should not expect to sit at that man's dinner table without the subject coming up.
  • MrBrianMrBrian Posts: 2,673
    I would not server because I beleive there is nothing to be accomplished there and I do not want to die for that nothing. However I seriously doubt that any soilder joined or is now joining with the purpose of "invasions of other countries" most of them sadly is because they want their educations paid for if it dose not cost them their life or limb, wanted to truly defend this nation (mostly previous to Iraq and certanly not with the intetion of what's going on over there), or sadly beleve that there is still good to be acomplished over there.

    I know people in the service and I thank them however misguided they are. For each one of them you hate for doing so they probably have it somewhere in the back of their mind (i hope) that they are at best preventing a draft..or at least postponing it until the next crisis requiring our military (if we don't leave Iraq first).

    Look, I understand that, but at the end it's just a simple fact that what they are doing in iraq is not good for america or the world.

    I mean you can hope all you want about why they joined or what they think they are doing but really, the fact remains....

    Also all they had to do is look at the history of the US military and the history of the american government to see that joining the US military is really about invasions and oppression and so on. It's not like before Iraq the US was going country to country planting flowers.

    They joined a gang, for money? maybe i'm sure some of them did, but mc donalds is always looking for people. What I mean by that is, the army is by far not the only choice. Or is it?

    But I do feel bad in some way for them.
  • MrBrian wrote:
    Look, I understand that, but at the end it's just a simple fact that what they are doing in iraq is not good for america or the world.

    I mean you can hope all you want about why they joined or what they think they are doing but really, the fact remains....

    Also all they had to do is look at the history of the US military and the history of the american government to see that joining the US military is really about invasions and oppression and so on. It's not like before Iraq the US was going country to country planting flowers.

    They joined a gang, for money? maybe i'm sure some of them did, but mc donalds is always looking for people. What I mean by that is, the army is by far not the only choice. Or is it?

    But I do feel bad in some way for them.

    Christ! Just make them all the bad guy cuz it's easier to think that way. What about Japan and Germany and WWII. The military is not evil, our leaders often misuse them but the ones who join are not the bad guys.

    You can't go to college on McDonalds. Active service get I beleive nearly 3K per month for education, most of them are also working so they have even more. College costs $$$ more than minimum wage per hour can earn and live on.
    Confucious Says: He who buries a man's wife alive, should not expect to sit at that man's dinner table without the subject coming up.
  • rightonduderightondude Posts: 745
    Christ! Just make them all the bad guy cuz it's easier to think that way. What about Japan and Germany and WWII. The military is not evil, our leaders often misuse them but the ones who join are not the bad guys.

    You can't go to college on McDonalds. Active service get I beleive nearly 3K per month for education, most of them are also working so they have even more. College costs $$$ more than minimum wage per hour can earn and live on.

    Precisely. any govt that puts such a glossy sheen on the oh so super convienient cash positive option of joining the military. When they press you down right to the bottom, they offer you a "break". A membership where you sacrifice your very life to the realm of their power. When you join the army, make no mistake, you surrender your soul to _____ any guesses?

    Think about it.

    How about take all the money from military and let the people keep it (hey there's a concept) to enjoy and enrich their lives with. people...it's a catch 22 of insanity. A total mind F#$%

    Think about what's really controlling the reality of your perception and in what ways.
  • AbuskedtiAbuskedti Posts: 1,915
    It's five below in evidence.
    The winded eves and sideways snow.
    His eminence has yet to show.

    Follow the ageless tide.
    Follow the angled light.
    Follow the strangest tribe.
    I... I... I...

    It's 6:00 AM. You're waiting for...
    You've had your feast. You're wanting more.

    Follow the wayward mile.
    Follow the distant high.
    Follow the strangest tribe.
    I... I... I...

    Follow the ancient stripe.
    Follow the angel's try.
    Follow the strangest tribe.
    I... I... I...
  • AbuskedtiAbuskedti Posts: 1,915
    I guess these stories will lesson the concern for all the reports of our troops dying... leaving the administration some more time to let the carnage continue.
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    Again to repeat...I didn't ask for a list of claims...I asked for evidence of LIES


    if you would read them you would see the lies

    the first link is from the white house's site w/ the claim about the IAEA report saying iraq is 6 months away from a nuke

    the 2nd link is from the nuclear control institute's site w. the IAEA's response saying they never issued a report saying that

    the 3rd link is the iaea's site w/ their report on iraq

    what exactly are you looking for?
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • AbuskedtiAbuskedti Posts: 1,915
    deliberate deception is a lie. Manipulation of fact presented in an attempt to provoke a predetermined reaction is a lie.

    The assertion that possession of chemical weapons by Iraq presented a significant threat to the United States is inaccurate. The elaborate presentation of Iraqs obsession and advancement of chemical weapons was not only not true - it was irrelevant. Yet they played this up daily and used it as a reason to invade a country.

    would you call that a white lie? not a big deal?
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,593
    If proven guilty on these charges, these individuals deserve the appropriate punishment.

    Let's face it, there's at least a percentage of people who sign up for the military that do so because the thought of killing gives them their kicks. Apparently, these guys were part of that element.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • AbuskedtiAbuskedti Posts: 1,915
    know1 wrote:
    If proven guilty on these charges, these individuals deserve the appropriate punishment.

    Let's face it, there's at least a percentage of people who sign up for the military that do so because the thought of killing gives them their kicks. Apparently, these guys were part of that element.

    everyone deserves "appropriate" punishment - I guess the question is "what is appropriate"

    doubtful your second claim is true - save for the last three years... there was very little opportunity to kill people in the US military after Vietnam.

    I guess the young guys enlisting in the army knowing they are going to Iraq serves a good purpose.. if they hate their lives and are considering suicide - or facing a life of despair... the war is a good option. So lets be wise and not use folks that enlisted since 9-11 as representative of military people - and more representative of Bush supporters
  • blackredyellowblackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    El_Kabong wrote:
    if you would read them you would see the lies

    the first link is from the white house's site w/ the claim about the IAEA report saying iraq is 6 months away from a nuke

    the 2nd link is from the nuclear control institute's site w. the IAEA's response saying they never issued a report saying that

    the 3rd link is the iaea's site w/ their report on iraq

    what exactly are you looking for?

    Apparently for Purple Hawk, making shit up does not equal lies...
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,593
    Abuskedti wrote:
    everyone deserves "appropriate" punishment - I guess the question is "what is appropriate"

    doubtful your second claim is true - save for the last three years... there was very little opportunity to kill people in the US military after Vietnam.

    I guess the young guys enlisting in the army knowing they are going to Iraq serves a good purpose.. if they hate their lives and are considering suicide - or facing a life of despair... the war is a good option. So lets be wise and not use folks that enlisted since 9-11 as representative of military people - and more representative of Bush supporters


    Appropriate is whatever was agreed upon for a similar crime.

    You think you're being "wise" by saying that people who enlisted since 9/11 are Bush supporters?

    And yes, I believe some people who enter the military are fascinated, intrigued, or whatever by guns, violence and killing.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • AbuskedtiAbuskedti Posts: 1,915
    know1 wrote:
    Appropriate is whatever was agreed upon for a similar crime.

    You think you're being "wise" by saying that people who enlisted since 9/11 are Bush supporters?

    And yes, I believe some people who enter the military are fascinated, intrigued, or whatever by guns, violence and killing.

    many bought into his lies... some unwitting supporters.. but supporters just the same.

    agreed? we rarely agree

    I am facinated, intrigued by guns violence and killing... I am also shocked and ashamed of fellow humans and how they use them
  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,684
    I would not server because I beleive there is nothing to be accomplished there and I do not want to die for that nothing. However I seriously doubt that any soilder joined or is now joining with the purpose of "invasions of other countries" most of them sadly is because they want their educations paid for if it dose not cost them their life or limb, wanted to truly defend this nation (mostly previous to Iraq and certanly not with the intetion of what's going on over there), or sadly beleve that there is still good to be acomplished over there.
    This supports a previously mentioned theory (actually that may have been on the Hadji Girl Video thread) that there are only three reasons that someone would join the U.S. military.
    1. Poverty
    2. Ignorance
    3. Stupidity
    Now I'm not saying I'm sold on that theory, but I've yet to find a reason that doesn't fall within one of those categories.
  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,684
    MrBrian wrote:
    Look, I understand that, but at the end it's just a simple fact that what they are doing in iraq is not good for america or the world.

    I mean you can hope all you want about why they joined or what they think they are doing but really, the fact remains....

    Also all they had to do is look at the history of the US military and the history of the american government to see that joining the US military is really about invasions and oppression and so on. It's not like before Iraq the US was going country to country planting flowers.

    They joined a gang, for money? maybe i'm sure some of them did, but mc donalds is always looking for people. What I mean by that is, the army is by far not the only choice. Or is it?

    But I do feel bad in some way for them.
    Great post. I feel bad for them too because they're obviously incapable of making a no-brainer decision to stay the fuck out of the U.S. military.

    And you're exactly right about the history of the country and the military. America has been trying to gain more and more power and land since it's inception, invading, occupying, and terrorizing those they see fit....all in the name of freedom and democracy. The irony is sickening.
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    MrBrian wrote:
    I know so?

    But you need to meet "commy"


    haha. nice Mr. B.

    present....


    So, I've been wondering, it's kind of hard to figure out why the warmongers think killing 250,000 Iraqi civilians is a positive step for humanity. What's your justification, Purple Heart...
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    Apparently for Purple Hawk, making shit up does not equal lies...


    i guess he's not gonna reply :(
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • rightonduderightondude Posts: 745
    nopes...some lightbulbs went off for him.
  • aNiMaLaNiMaL Posts: 7,095
    El_Kabong wrote:
    i guess he's not gonna reply :(
    He wanted proof. Not direct quotes from the president on the White Houses official website. What were you thinking? :rolleyes:
  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,684
    THis is the post you say has merrit?
    Without question.
  • EvilToasterElfEvilToasterElf Posts: 1,119
    Again to repeat...I didn't ask for a list of claims...I asked for evidence of LIES

    man you are too much.

    Tell you what. You show me a nuclear weapon, and we'll call it even. Or any WMD? How about some anthrax? Any chemical weapons? The only ones I've seen in Iraq so far is the willy pete we used to vaporize a bunch of civilians.

    We were told Iraq posed an immediate threat to our security. Colin Powell took a vial of anthrax to the UN to tell them how dangerous it was. If there was no reason to be afraid of Iraq, Congress would not have given Bush unbelievably magnanimous war powers. There was no threat there, there still isn't a threat there, what there is there is a bunch of incredibly pissed off people, either because we fucked up once we got into Iraq, or because we were even there in the first place.
  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,932
    El_Kabong wrote:
    if you would read them you would see the lies

    the first link is from the white house's site w/ the claim about the IAEA report saying iraq is 6 months away from a nuke

    the 2nd link is from the nuclear control institute's site w. the IAEA's response saying they never issued a report saying that

    the 3rd link is the iaea's site w/ their report on iraq

    what exactly are you looking for?

    Let's keep this thread going, shall we. I believe Purple Hawk was about to address this.
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


    naděje umírá poslední
  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,932
    miller8966 wrote:
    how about blaming the insurgency for being such savages?

    What's this, miller? I thought you were all pro death penalty? Remember find a rope and a tree?
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


    naděje umírá poslední
  • PaperPlatesPaperPlates Posts: 1,745
    This supports a previously mentioned theory (actually that may have been on the Hadji Girl Video thread) that there are only three reasons that someone would join the U.S. military.
    1. Poverty
    2. Ignorance
    3. Stupidity
    Now I'm not saying I'm sold on that theory, but I've yet to find a reason that doesn't fall within one of those categories.


    These are some other reasons for which im sure many join.

    Honor
    Tradition
    Family Pressure
    Patriotism
    Desire to Lead and Ability to do so
    Travel
    Realization that you could use some discipline
    Change
    Boredom
    Interesting
    Brotherhood
    Sense of belonging
    Friends
    Wanting to do something "more"
    Fighting today so our kids won't have to tommorow



    You know, the guys at "the top" giving the orders within the military all served, were all enlisted men, many are very educated both in military and world history. The leaders of tommorow's military are within the "grunts" of today. Not all are idiots. Not all are ignorant. Id bet not all agree with the president either. And not all see things like some of you. Implying or stating otherwise should piss everyone off.
    Why go home

    www.myspace.com/jensvad
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    You know, the guys at "the top" giving the orders within the military all served, were all enlisted men, many are very educated both in military and world history. The leaders of tommorow's military are within the "grunts" of today. Not all are idiots. Not all are ignorant. Id bet not all agree with the president either. And not all see things like some of you. Implying or stating otherwise should piss everyone off.


    not entirely true...a lot start out as officers, so they are never a grunt.

    also, this administration has taken a lot of the decision making power away from the military, they even pretty much stripped JAG lawyers of powers so they are pretty much nothing but lawyers to do as they're told.
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    Collin wrote:
    Let's keep this thread going, shall we. I believe Purple Hawk was about to address this.


    yes, surely something must have happened...i mean he was on last night replying to a few different threads and i even reminded him about this one...then he disappeared shortly after that...i hope nothing bad happened to him!

    :D
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
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