Augustine

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  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    I have to sort of question why he gave me this book. He's a Catholic and knows I'm an atheist. Perhaps from his perspective these were good arguments. But to me they just seem rather hollow.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I have to sort of question why he gave me this book. He's a Catholic and knows I'm an atheist. Perhaps from his perspective these were good arguments. But to me they just seem rather hollow.

    well you know ryan, believers are always trying to save our blasphemic atheist souls. :D
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  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I have to sort of question why he gave me this book. He's a Catholic and knows I'm an atheist. Perhaps from his perspective these were good arguments. But to me they just seem rather hollow.

    maybe he thought you might find it interesting to see what other people think. or maybe he thought you could get over your blustering ego long enough to try to see the world through somebody else's eyes for a few pages.
  • boxwine_in_hell
    boxwine_in_hell Posts: 1,263
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I have to sort of question why he gave me this book. He's a Catholic and knows I'm an atheist. Perhaps from his perspective these were good arguments. But to me they just seem rather hollow.

    I think it's actually pretty interesting if you approach it philisophically rather than religiously. It's also a good window into how a 4th-5th century person thought about and viewed his world.
    one foot in the door
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  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    soulsinging wrote:
    maybe he thought you might find it interesting to see what other people think. or maybe he thought you could get over your blustering ego long enough to try to see the world through somebody else's eyes for a few pages.

    He said they were good arguments. He said "it's classic" it is classic alright, but that doesn't make it right. None of it means anything to me so far. It's all a religious perspective, it even has scripture in it. I know what it's like to view it from a religious perspective. It pushes the whole free-will idea. I was born into that perspective.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    boxwine_in_hell wrote:
    I think it's actually pretty interesting if you approach it philisophically rather than religiously. It's also a good window into how a 4th-5th century person thought about and viewed his world.

    It's interesting if God exists and exists exactly as is written in scripture. But that's not likely. I could philosophically say there is a Space Gazebo where space mutants congregate 350 trillion light years from earth. But who is even going to consider that?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Kann
    Kann Posts: 1,146
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Well, actually it basically says

    Without free-will there could be no good and no evil. But there is evil, but God cannot be the source of this evil, so he gave us free-will, which allows some of us to do evil.

    But I still question, that God made everything about those people, and must know that giving those people free-will would allow them to do evil. Then God is the source of evil. But the book quickly moves on to other arguments.

    What that means is that God, in is all goodness lifestyle we all know, created us (and the angels). But he let us (and some angels) choose to ignore him and his words if we wished. As God is ulimate good, if you ignore him and stray away from him you stop to live a "good" life and start going after the evil part. In that way of thought, God didn't create evil, his absence is evil. Ignore God and you're evil. It's an easy trick to explain the presence of God and not get him to be responsible for the evil stuff we all witness.
    And you can't expect to read Augustine and not have a word about God. He lived a long time ago and didn't know as much as you do today Ahnimus.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Augustine wrote:
    We have now, I think, begun to see what the eternal (God's) law can do. We have found out how far the temporal (Man's) law can go in punishing evildoing. We have clearly and carefully distinguished between two sorts of things--eternal and temporal; and in turn between two sorts of human beings--those who pursue and love eternal things, and those who pursue and love temporal things. We have determined that the choice to follow and embrace one or the other lies with the will, and that only the will can depose the mind from its stronghold of power and deprive it of right order. And it has become clear that we should not blame anything when someone uses it wrongly; we should blame the one who uses it wrongly.

    I'll ignore the presupposition of God for this argument. I will say that the church will generally consider love to be good and lust to be bad. But how can we distinguish the two and separate them into eternal and temporal. Most people would admit that lust is an innate drive as well as love. Augustine is suggesting that we are innately aligned with God's will and it takes free-will to 'deprive it of right order'. Thus God is not the source of Evil and individual people are responsible for themselves. However, I do not see lust as a straying of natural order, it's part of natural order. It is different than romantic love and/or attachment, but it facilitates them. It is a primary drive that we are born into and develop during puberty. Augustine is proposing a 'Innate purity' perspective on human nature. However, with simply lust and love as examples and using the Christian dogma as a map, we see that is simply not true.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I'd be interested in getting to know you better, but I value my life and liver. ;)

    Ahhaha...no offence CF, but this is one of the better one liners I've heard lately...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    Ahhaha...no offence CF, but this is one of the better one liners I've heard lately...

    no offense taken roland. ahnimus knows when to quit when he's ahead. :) he don't need no robot to tell him when there's danger.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I'll ignore the presupposition of God for this argument. I will say that the church will generally consider love to be good and lust to be bad. But how can we distinguish the two and separate them into eternal and temporal. Most people would admit that lust is an innate drive as well as love. Augustine is suggesting that we are innately aligned with God's will and it takes free-will to 'deprive it of right order'. Thus God is not the source of Evil and individual people are responsible for themselves. However, I do not see lust as a straying of natural order, it's part of natural order. It is different than romantic love and/or attachment, but it facilitates them. It is a primary drive that we are born into and develop during puberty. Augustine is proposing a 'Innate purity' perspective on human nature. However, with simply lust and love as examples and using the Christian dogma as a map, we see that is simply not true.
    As others have pointed out, it is futile to debate Augustine's philosophy without accepting the premise of a god. If you dont, you dont agree with the premises, and hence, none of the arguments Augustine uses will make any sense.

    But to play the devil's advocate here, lust is a thing of the physical (sinful) body, while love is of the soul, reflecting God who is love. Love is God and God is love. (Note: Love is then meant as way beyond "romantic love") If we align ourselves to God (as he intended) then we will align to love and good (spiritual, moral). But we have free will, so we may choose not to, and in essence align ourselves with evil (physical, materialism).

    But without accepting body/soul duality and the existence of god, there really is no point in debating Augustine. I don't accept his premises either, which makes it unnecessary for me to debate it further.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    OutOfBreath wrote:
    As others have pointed out, it is futile to debate Augustine's philosophy without accepting the premise of a god. If you dont, you dont agree with the premises, and hence, none of the arguments Augustine uses will make any sense.

    But to play the devil's advocate here, lust is a thing of the physical (sinful) body, while love is of the soul, reflecting God who is love. Love is God and God is love. (Note: Love is then meant as way beyond "romantic love") If we align ourselves to God (as he intended) then we will align to love and good (spiritual, moral). But we have free will, so we may choose not to, and in essence align ourselves with evil (physical, materialism).

    But without accepting body/soul duality and the existence of god, there really is no point in debating Augustine. I don't accept his premises either, which makes it unnecessary for me to debate it further.

    Peace
    Dan

    Who really accepts substance duality these days? You'd have to be crazy. Interestingly according to Augustine I'm a lot of bad things, foolish, stupid, etc.. If you want to see the epitome of ignorant arrogance I suggest this book.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Who really accepts substance duality these days?
    Quite a lot of people I would suppose. What about the wave/particle characteristic of atoms?
    You'd have to be crazy.
    No you wouldn't. It would be counter to your beliefs, somewhat mine, and probably the scientific community's official stance, but it wouldn't be crazy.
    Interestingly according to Augustine I'm a lot of bad things, foolish, stupid, etc.. If you want to see the epitome of ignorant arrogance I suggest this book.
    Well, I dont particularly care for his philosophy either. And I think I'll give it a miss. ;)

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Are you familiar with Darren Brown?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Are you familiar with Darren Brown?
    Not before looking up on wikipedia about him now, no. I fail to see his relevance in this matter though.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    OutOfBreath wrote:
    Not before looking up on wikipedia about him now, no. I fail to see his relevance in this matter though.

    Peace
    Dan

    If you watch his videos, and read up on Hypnotic suggestions and NLP, it starts to appear that our will is quite superficial.

    Here are a few examples
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=hwthqRJ1Khg
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6bkleuxpvxY
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=befugtgikMg

    This one is especially good. Brown is an atheist, but he poses as an evangelist and converts people to Christianity. (2 parts).

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=2Sq-YUdq1OI
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=-DylNVUN_3I
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    Ahnimus wrote:
    If you watch his videos, and read up on Hypnotic suggestions and NLP, it starts to appear that our will is quite superficial.

    Here are a few examples
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=hwthqRJ1Khg
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6bkleuxpvxY
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=befugtgikMg

    This one is especially good. Brown is an atheist, but he poses as an evangelist and converts people to Christianity. (2 parts).

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=2Sq-YUdq1OI
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=-DylNVUN_3I
    Well, our will is quite open for suggestions at least.

    Skimmed through them, and interesting. But what was the relevance to what we discussed above?

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    OutOfBreath wrote:
    Well, our will is quite open for suggestions at least.

    Skimmed through them, and interesting. But what was the relevance to what we discussed above?

    Peace
    Dan

    Look, if someone can make you want something you didn't want before and eliminate any want for the thing you originally wanted, simply by using a technique of sub-conscious suggestion. Then I don't see how a person can have free-will. It follows that all of our initial wants and desires are also the products of sub-conscious suggestion. There is truely no other explanations for the diversity of thoughts and desires, as well as the irrationality of some, other than that all these things emerge from the subconcious, in which case, I see not power of will over it.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Look, if someone can make you want something you didn't want before and eliminate any want for the thing you originally wanted, simply by using a technique of sub-conscious suggestion. Then I don't see how a person can have free-will. It follows that all of our initial wants and desires are also the products of sub-conscious suggestion. There is truely no other explanations for the diversity of thoughts and desires, as well as the irrationality of some, other than that all these things emerge from the subconcious, in which case, I see not power of will over it.
    Oh are we on about free will now? I have voiced no opinion of it in this thread as far as I know. That's why I asked for relevance.

    But that our will can be changed, does not imply that we don't have it at all. And that something is going on subconsciously does not negate any will either.

    But I'm no proponent of total free-will either. I just dont think that what you point out here necessarily are conclusive evidence to support your case.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    I bought these Centrios ear-buds because my other headphones are busted.

    When I watch videos or listen to sounds that have a certain range of background noise, I see strange anomolies in the environment around me, and a presence as if something is there, it first seems like a bug is flying around, but as I look around me there is nothing there. I've linked this phenomena to the new ear-buds I'm using, I also tend to submit to an alternate state of consciousness, a slightly hypnotic state, if you will. I believe this is caused by the electromagnetism from the ear-buds, unfortunately I've no way of verifying this without an EM detector.

    The ear-buds us NdFeB magnets (according to the package, which I still have). These magnets are very powerful and are used for Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation. In theory, I've discovered the source of these recent 'presences' to be the ear-buds I just purchased.

    But this is what I mean about knowledge and critical analysis. Instead of assuming that I'm being haunted or foreshadowed by God. All kinds of things affect us, and it follows that we are then a product of these influences.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire

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