Armageddon

I'd like to reference Dogma here:

God is infallible, and proving God wrong would unmake existence. I'm sure Satan is sick of Hell and would do anything to get out of there

gemma wrote:

For this thread, let's make it a given that the story told in Revelations about the battle between God and Satan is true. God has told everyone what happens and who wins and, no surprise here since it's his book, it's God. And God is the most powerful being in the universe, so if he says it's true, it's true. So then why is Satan even bothering? He knows God wins. He can't change what God says happens. It doesn't make sense that Satan would wage a war he knows he loses.

There seems to be two ways to go with this. Either Satan knows God is not as powerful as he has led his creation to believe and knows he has a chance to win. Or the outcome is determined (God wins) and it's just a pointless exercise in violence. (Which would indicate that God and Satan have some major issues.) I've never understood how Christians can see it any other way but obviously they do. Can anyone explain that?

If his "list" says I am going to my aerobics class, I must go.

A. The problem here is that the idea of a list introduces the error that there is a set list of things that the person must accomplish, because it is on a list for them to do.* This is not the case.* You do not go to the gym because it is on the list that you must fulfill.* It is simply an advance recording of what you will do based on the choices you will freely make.
B. A better understanding of the "list" idea would be if God wrote a list of the things you did after you did them.*He can do this since He is in the future and can look back from the future to see what you chose to do at any time.* Time is relative to God.*Because you have already done them freely (from God's future perspective looking backward), the list can be made accurately by God.* Since He is also in the past and present, He can even show us this list in advance...only for Him it happened a long time ago as He watched you freely do what you wanted to do.*So, since God is in all places at all time, He can look back in time to get the list, and then even reveal it in advance to you.* It would be a list of things you freely chose to do -- or should I say, that you will freely choose to do.

Satan…not so much. Satan has none of this "omnipotent" power that God has. Satan knows the ending, but he doesn't know what his actions and misdeeds will lead to. His is NOT omnipotent. Thus, he continues to fight and try to pull others away from God, and to stop God through the destruction of Israel. Besides, Satan rebelled from the beginning. Don't forget that he used to be an angel. He's always been rebellious. Satan was allowed to roam the earth by God, and he knows that if he can destory Israel, he can stop Christ from returning to Earth.

Is it just me, or has the Christian bashing picking up speed these days????

gemma wrote:

For this thread, let's make it a given that the story told in Revelations about the battle between God and Satan is true. God has told everyone what happens and who wins and, no surprise here since it's his book, it's God. And God is the most powerful being in the universe, so if he says it's true, it's true. So then why is Satan even bothering? He knows God wins. He can't change what God says happens. It doesn't make sense that Satan would wage a war he knows he loses.

There seems to be two ways to go with this. Either Satan knows God is not as powerful as he has led his creation to believe and knows he has a chance to win. Or the outcome is determined (God wins) and it's just a pointless exercise in violence. (Which would indicate that God and Satan have some major issues.) I've never understood how Christians can see it any other way but obviously they do. Can anyone explain that?

Revelations is the story of god vs satan? I think what your reffering to is Miltons Paradise lost.

Heh, we're at the omnipotent and good problem again then are we? I'll go along with satan and god existing and such as presented here (although I also think this is largely from paradise lost).

In order for there to be good, there must be evil. Every coin has the other side. So if God wanted good to exist in the world, he needed evil to define it against. Hence, he needed satan. Considering him being omnipotent and omniscient, he created lucifer in exactly that way so that he would rebel, and so that many of the angels would follow. Claiming they were free to act first is nonsense. Either God knew everything at the moment he made them, or else he is not all-knowing if he must look back from the future after the fact. And still, he would know the exact result before he created anything.

So this concept of God can either be all-powerful, but in no way all-good as we would understand the term. Or God is all-good, but not all-powerful so that things happen that he did not exactly intend. One of them has to give.

Me I see it as a pointless rhetoric exercise really, as I remain certain that any creative god, would be far bayond our comprehension at any rate, and might not have any particular interest for our atom of the heavens.

But, if God created Lucifer, and is all-powerful, he knew that he had now created evil. Frankly, I could accept that, you'd just have to budge the all-good part a bit. (Besides from the fact that I dont believe any of it)

Peace
Dan

Leaving aside the cartoon characters, where does Man fit into this?

NCfan wrote:

It's my understanding that the book of Revelations has been removed and then added back to the Bible many times throughout history.

It's funny to think that generations of humans and Christains lived their lives without knowing of Revelations, and then there are generations who did live with it and believe it.

Kind of makes you think about the legitamacy of the whole thing doesn't it...

Well yeah, there is that, and there's also the millions of years of history that pre date the writing of any religious novelty item.

How do these bibles explain anything like that? You know, dinosaurs, evolution, animals, blah blah blah.

onelongsong wrote:

the devil is gaining power (so he thinks). look at the number of athiests and agnostics on the board alone. anti Christs. never in history has there been so much anti religious feelings

Hell yeah! I'm the anti christ! Makes me feel special.

Go Devil go!

gemma wrote:

For this thread, let's make it a given that the story told in Revelations about the battle between God and Satan is true. God has told everyone what happens and who wins and, no surprise here since it's his book, it's God. And God is the most powerful being in the universe, so if he says it's true, it's true. So then why is Satan even bothering? He knows God wins. He can't change what God says happens. It doesn't make sense that Satan would wage a war he knows he loses.

There seems to be two ways to go with this. Either Satan knows God is not as powerful as he has led his creation to believe and knows he has a chance to win. Or the outcome is determined (God wins) and it's just a pointless exercise in violence. (Which would indicate that God and Satan have some major issues.) I've never understood how Christians can see it any other way but obviously they do. Can anyone explain that?

Because Satan is a stubborn prick and his Mom told him to never quit.