Chomsky: Israel is heading for destruction

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  • canadajammer
    canadajammer Posts: 263
    Byrnzie wrote:
    I never said there was civil war in Israel.

    Read the sentence again and try not to blink...

    'They pose a constant threat of civil war if their interests are not fully respected.'

    This quote is from an Israeli by the way.



    If you really are this confused about it then I suggest you read the articles I posted above. They explain it clearly.



    That's because you're confused.



    The Times. The International Herald Tribune. Israel Insider - Israel's Daily Magazine. Counterpunch.



    There was no civil war. There was factional in-fighting sponsored by Israel and the U.S as has been proven. It didn't lead to all-out civil war.


    I understand you said 'threat.' But you are quoting people's opinions of 'threat of civil war' from 4 years ago! Completely irrelevant, especially since no civil war occurred, and no civil war has ever occurred. Yet you fail to mention civil fighting/conflict/war in Gaza like it never existed.

    Then you call it factional in-fighting sponsored by Israel and the US.

    Did Hamas have anything to do with the violence in 2006? Did they kill Palestinian civilians? The answer is yes.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Colorsblending9 wrote:
    I understand you said 'threat.' But you are quoting people's opinions of 'threat of civil war' from 4 years ago! Completely irrelevant, especially since no civil war occurred, and no civil war has ever occurred.

    http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=5160883
    Israeli Settlers Fight Eviction from Hebron

    January 17, 2006

    MICHELE NORRIS, host:

    This is ALL THINGS CONSIDERED from NPR News. I'm Michele Norris.

    MELISSA BLOCK, host:

    And I'm Melissa Block.

    Israel has declared the West Bank town of Hebron a closed military zone and today Israeli security forces began enforcing a ban on non-residents. Jewish settlers have been rioting in Hebron, angry about a government move to evict Jewish squatters from the former Palestinian market. Settlers have thrown rocks and eggs at Israeli security officers, who've made more than two dozen arrests. From Hebron, NPR's Eric Westervelt reports.

    ERIC WESTERVELT reporting:

    Today one of the former Palestinian market stalls in Hebron is a study hall where young Jewish settler children recite the Torah during class time.

    (Soundbite of children reciting in Hebrew)

    WESTERVELT: Four years ago eight Jewish families made homes in these former market stalls next to a settler enclave named after a Jewish baby girl killed by a Palestinian sniper. The squatter families and their supporters ignored an Israeli court order to vacate the area by January 15th. Moves to evict the squatters set off fights, signaling that West Bank settlers aren't likely to go as peacefully as those removed last summer from Gaza Strip settlements such as Gush Katif.

    Mr. CHAIM COHEN (Business Consultant): Listen, in Gush Katif we tried to be nice, to say `We love you.' The nice way didn't succeed.

    WESTERVELT: Chaim Cohen, a business consultant, made his way from Tel Aviv and around local checkpoints to support the squatters and, he says, to draw the line in the opening fight over West Bank settlements. `If we don't resist here,' he says, `where will the evictions stop?' He says settlers have the right to live on land that he says was stolen by Arabs during a 1929 massacre of Jewish families.

    Mr. COHEN: I believe everyone that is normal, is logical, if people comes to throw him from his home, he's trying to do like normal guy, to fight. It's a Jewish place.

    Mr. DAVID WILDER (Hebron Community Spokesman): The situation is flammable. Tensions are running very high.

    WESTERVELT: David Wilder is the spokesman for the Jewish community of Hebron, a community whose presence has deep religious resonance for many Jews. Judaism's second holiest city is site of the biblical Tomb of the Patriarchs where, tradition has it, Abraham and his sons are buried. Wilder says he doesn't condone the stone throwing and violence, much of it by young people, but he says the Israeli government has provoked them with displays of force. He says they're trying to work out a compromise to rent the disputed market stalls and they've asked for a court injunction against eviction. But Wilder warns that settlers won't stand idly by if there are any more moves to evict.

    Mr. WILDER: Again, I hope very much that we don't reach that situation. If, God forbid, that does happen, then for sure there's going to be resistance. Nobody's going to get up and walk out.     People say enough is enough.

    (Soundbite of hooves on street)

    WESTERVELT: Israeli riot police on horseback and on foot patrol moved in just in front of the disputed market stalls today in a show of force. Interim Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Monday again vowed to get tough, saying there would be no forgiveness or compromises with what he called unacceptable behavior. Several police were injured by rocks and debris in these latest clashes. Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld says security forces are ready to do whatever is needed to enforce government political decisions on eviction.

    Mr. MICKY ROSENFELD (Police Spokesman): If necessary in the future we will be using all the facilities that we have in order to deal with disturbances and riots that take place, such as those that have happened over the last three days in Hebron.

    WESTERVELT: A main road divides Hebron's roughly 1,000 Jewish settlers from the 170,000 Palestinians here. It's a street that's off limits to local Arabs.

    PEDRAS (Unemployed Butcher): Even here the street not allowed for me, I walk in the street. It's not allowed. Maybe the soldier will shoot me. (Unintelligible).

    WESTERVELT: Pedras(ph) is a 57-year-old unemployed Palestinian. He says he lost his meat shop in the older Absuf(ph) market section of Hebron when Jewish settlers expanded into his area in 2000.

    PEDRAS: I have shop in town, in the market. Six year I don't open it. I am a butcher man. I don't have business in my shop. Closed six years. All the president, from any country, from America, who are speaking about this process will forget the word of the freedom. Where is the freedom?

    WESTERVELT: Pedras says he's deeply skeptical Israeli police will ever move to evict the squatters from the market area. `This is just a show,' he says. But eviction is something Israel's acting prime minister has vowed to carry out within weeks. Eric Westervelt, NPR News, Hebron.


    http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-08-15-gaza-monday_x.htm

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/settlers-block-soldiers-with-eviction-notices-503016.html
    Settlers block soldiers with eviction notices

    By Amy Teibel, AP
    Monday, 15 August 2005

    'Defiant Jewish settlers locked the gates to their communities, formed human chains and burned tyres to block troops from delivering eviction notices today, as Israel began its historic pullout from the Gaza Strip after 38 years of occupation.

    Police and soldiers waited patiently in the sweltering sun and avoided confrontation at the behest of their commanders. In one scene, a sobbing settler pleaded with a brigadier general not to evict him before the two men embraced.

    Resistance was stiff in Gush Katif. Hundreds of settlers blocked the gates of Neve Dekalim, Gaza's largest settlement, to prevent the forces from entering.

    Dozens of observant Jewish men, wearing white prayer shawls, held morning prayers at the gate, appealing for divine intervention to block the withdrawal. A crowd of youths wearing orange, the color of defiance, sat on the streets and screamed at the soldiers. "You're a partner to a crime," screamed one protester.

    Troops moved into the community through a second entrance, only to be blocked by crowds who burned tires and formed human chains. When a small group of soldiers managed to enter, settlers took the eviction notices and burned them. One policeman was covered in green paint thrown by protesters.'
  • canadajammer
    canadajammer Posts: 263
    How many were killed or injured?

    The word 'War' or 'threat of war' does not describe what is happening or what has happened within Israel.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Colorsblending9 wrote:
    How many were killed or injured?

    The word 'War' or 'threat of war' does not describe what is happening or what has happened within Israel.

    Yes it does. Did you not read the articles I posted. They explain it clearly. Nobody else here has a problem understanding it.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Colorsblending9 wrote:
    The word 'War' or 'threat of war' does not describe what is happening or what has happened within Israel.

    Here. I'll post it for you again. Read it sloooowwwly.

    'Because Israel's voting system allocates seats purely on the basis of national votes for a party, not by district, extremist parties have substantial influence, especially since minority government in Israel is the norm rather than the exception. Moreover, extremists have had an important presence with the large Likud party. Just as there is no doubt that they do much, directly and indirectly, to shape Israeli policy. An Israeli commentator describes the current situation as follows:

    "It is not difficult to imagine what the settlers' lobby means in a country with notoriously narrow parliamentary majorities. Though 70 percent of voters say in the polls that they support abandoning some of the settlements, 400,000 settlers and their right-wing and Orthodox supporters within Israel proper now control at least half the national vote. They pose a constant threat of civil war if their interests are not fully respected. At their core is a group of fanatical nationalists and religious fundamentalists who believe they know exactly what God and Abraham said to each other in the Bronze age".
  • canadajammer
    canadajammer Posts: 263
    There has never been a civil war in Israel.

    You can post articles that say 'threats of civil war' but these threats have never come true. And it doesn't look like they ever will.

    You can't exaggerate protesting into civil war...that's a bit too much of a stretch don't you think
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Colorsblending9 wrote:
    There has never been a civil war in Israel.

    You can post articles that say 'threats of civil war' but these threats have never come true. And it doesn't look like they ever will.

    You can't exaggerate protesting into civil war...that's a bit too much of a stretch don't you think

    I never said there was a civil war In Israel.
    Maybe you don't understand the meaning of the word 'threat'?
    I didn't exagerate protesting into civil war.


    Now that we've cleared that up. What's your point? Are you suggesting that there are no extremists in Israel? Are you suggesting that the settler movements don't pose a threat of civil war? What do you think would happen if Israel decided to abide by international law and withdraw from the illegally occupied territories? Do you think the settlers would go peacefully?
    I've already provided ample evidence that the settler movement intends to fight in order to stay where they are. I've already provided ample evidence - which you got so hysterical about - that the settlers are largely influenced by the extreme right and religious fanatics.

    O.k, so what's your point?
  • canadajammer
    canadajammer Posts: 263
    Byrnzie wrote:
    I never said there was a civil war In Israel.
    Maybe you don't understand the meaning of the word 'threat'?
    I didn't exagerate protesting into civil war.


    Now that we've cleared that up. What's your point? Are you suggesting that there are no extremists in Israel? Are you suggesting that the settler movements don't pose a threat of civil war? What do you think would happen if Israel decided to abide by international law and withdraw from the illegally occupied territories? Do you think the settlers would go peacefully?
    I've already provided ample evidence that the settler movement intends to fight in order to stay where they are. I've already provided ample evidence - which you got so hysterical about - that the settlers are largely influenced by the extreme right and religious fanatics.

    O.k, so what's your point?


    My original point was a response to you posting that DNA quote, and how you were just spreading BS/garbage/hate which had nothing to do with the actual discussion or situation in Israel. I still stand by that.

    You responded with 2 paragraphs, someone else's words obviously, about Israel's voting system and how the 400,000 ultra right wing conservative orthodox Jews control the country. You quoted someone saying there is constant threat of civil war. Then backed up that quote with numerous articles from '04 about potential civil war, and then articles from 2006 about Jewish protesters from the settlements being evacuated.

    1) Those two paragraphs were completely irrelevant in the first place
    2) I then set out to dispute the civil war notion, threat or actual war, because it gives people here the wrong idea that there is civil unrest and violence widespread in Israel, when this is in fact not true.

    I disagree with the statement that there is constant threat of civil war in Israel, and I set out to prove that by showing that there has never been a civil war in Israel and those articles you posted from 2004 that warned of civil war, never came true.




    If people were forced out of their homes, of course they would protest. But Civil War? Not going to happen.


    Oh yeah, you also classified the Hamas-Fatah conflict as an afterthought, when really hundreds died or were injured.

    Why do I make a big fuss?

    Well, when uninformed people read your posts, they would assume there is civil fighting/war/unrest in Israel, but no conflicts at all within the Palestinian people. I don't want people to be that misinformed or misguided.

    My point above is not to make the Palestinian side look worse, but to show that Byrznie clearly doesn't mention both sides. Cause if he did, he would at least mention the actual civil fighting and deaths within Palestine and not the potential civil war suggested by some writers 4 years ago.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Colorsblending9 wrote:
    My original point was a response to you posting that DNA quote, and how you were just spreading BS/garbage/hate which had nothing to do with the actual discussion or situation in Israel. I still stand by that.

    You responded with 2 paragraphs, someone else's words obviously, about Israel's voting system and how the 400,000 ultra right wing conservative orthodox Jews control the country. You quoted someone saying there is constant threat of civil war. Then backed up that quote with numerous articles from '04 about potential civil war, and then articles from 2006 about Jewish protesters from the settlements being evacuated.

    1) Those two paragraphs were completely irrelevant in the first place

    They weren't irrelevant. Roland mentioned the occupation - you know? The occupation? He mentioned how the extreme right were never going to back down. I then posted some quotes from Jewish Rabbi's which supported his comments. You then threw a fit.

    Colorsblending9 wrote:
    2) I then set out to dispute the civil war notion, threat or actual war, because it gives people here the wrong idea that there is civil unrest and violence widespread in Israel, when this is in fact not true.

    There is civil unrest and violence in Israel when there is any mention of disbanding the settlements. I proved that above with numerous articles.
    Colorsblending9 wrote:
    I disagree with the statement that there is constant threat of civil war in Israel, and I set out to prove that by showing that there has never been a civil war in Israel and those articles you posted from 2004 that warned of civil war, never came true.

    You haven't proven anything. And there hasn't been civil war in Israel because the settlers were located elsewhere on other illegal settlements and the settlement building has continued at an even faster rate since then.


    Colorsblending9 wrote:
    If people were forced out of their homes, of course they would protest. But Civil War? Not going to happen.

    That's your opinion. Though the opinion of the settlers is somewhat different.
    Colorsblending9 wrote:
    Well, when uninformed people read your posts, they would assume there is civil fighting/war/unrest in Israel, but no conflicts at all within the Palestinian people.

    Only if they're stupid.

    Colorsblending9 wrote:
    My point above is not to make the Palestinian side look worse, but to show that Byrznie clearly doesn't mention both sides. Cause if he did, he would at least mention the actual civil fighting and deaths within Palestine and not the potential civil war suggested by some writers 4 years ago.

    I didn't mention the Palestinian in-fighting of 2006 because it isn't relevant. And I didn't mention the potential war within Israel if the settlements were disbanded. It was you who jumped on that sentence and made a big song and dance about it.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Tuesday, 24 June 2008 09:41 UK

    Israelis 'kill two in West Bank

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7470530.stm
    'Israeli forces have killed two Palestinians in the West Bank city of Nablus, Palestinian sources say.

    Israel's army said it had killed a senior member of the Islamic Jihad militant group in the strike but could not confirm the second reported death.

    The militant, Tarek Jumea Abu Ali, 24, was wanted by Israel for instigating attacks, Israel's army said.

    Islamic Jihad had warned attacks on its militants in the West Bank could jeopardise a truce in the Gaza Strip.

    The Israeli army said the militant died in an exchange of fire, and that explosive devices and weapons were found in his flat.

    But neighbours say the two men died in an explosion.

    The violence came as the ceasefire between Israel and the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip went into its sixth day.

    While the West Bank is not covered by this truce, the reaction of militant groups in Gaza to Israeli operations in the West Bank is expected to test the ceasefire, which was brokered by Egypt.

    Meanwhile, the Israeli army said a mortar was fired from Gaza into Israel late on Monday, about three hours before the Nablus operation.

    No group has claimed responsibility for the mortar attack, which caused no casualties, and Israel said it did not consider the strike to be a breach of the Gaza ceasefire.

    Previous cease-fires in Gaza have broken down after retaliation from Gaza to Israeli operations in the West Bank.

    Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is travelling to the Egyptian Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh for talks with President Hosni Mubarak.

    Their meeting is expected to focus on the ceasefire's progress and on a prisoner swap that forms part of the agreement.

    Cairo wants Israel to re-open the Rafah crossing point between Egypt and Gaza, but Israel has made it clear the crossing will only be opened only if its soldier, Gilad Shalit, is released by Hamas.
  • darthvedder81
    darthvedder81 Posts: 688
    Me: Chomsky is a Marxist lunatic
    So this life is sacrifice...
    6/30/98 Minneapolis, 10/8/00 East Troy (Brrrr!), 6/16/03 St. Paul, 6/27/06 St. Paul
  • Nevermind
    Nevermind Posts: 1,006
    darthvedder81 wrote:
    Me: Chomsky is a Marxist lunatic
    What makes you think that?
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    darthvedder81 wrote:
    Me: Chomsky is a Marxist lunatic

    Interesting soundbite. Though It would be more interesting if it had any basis in reality.

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