Is he somehow trying to draw a link between Israel's possible destruction and their threat to destroy Iran's nuclear capabilities, or am I reading way too much in?
I think he was referring to Israel's continued sabre rattling as a whole.
Constant threat of civil war? That is just not true, and civil wars have never happened in Israel.
- These articles are from 2004. Clearly, no civil war happened. There has never been a civil war in Israel, unlike some of the surrounding countries.
- Your articles come from ridiculous sources. Some are forums! Salon.com? Please...
- You are trying to tell me that Israel has had civil wars, but you send 4 articles from unknown, untrustworthy sources from 4 years ago!!! about a civil war that never happened!
- Even if your sources were legit, they speak of something that DID NOT HAPPEN, 4 years ago.
Constant threat of civil war? That is just not true, and civil wars have never happened in Israel.
- These articles are from 2004. Clearly, no civil war happened. There has never been a civil war in Israel, unlike some of the surrounding countries.
- Your articles come from ridiculous sources. Some are forums! Salon.com? Please...
- You are trying to tell me that Israel has had civil wars, but you send 4 articles from unknown, untrustworthy sources from 4 years ago!!! about a civil war that never happened!
- Even if your sources were legit, they speak of something that DID NOT HAPPEN, 4 years ago.
Israel Insider - Israel's Daily Magazine http://web.israelinsider.com/views/5142.htm
'...Israel today contains two groups who share the same religion and language, but whose goals and aspirations differ. The vast majority (over 95%) of Israel's population live in pre-1967 Israel. A majority of them want to separate themselves from the Palestinians and for peace are willing to give up most of the land conquered in the Six-Day War.
A hard-core group of religious radicals, numbering less than 3 percent of the Jewish population of Israel and residing in the occupied areas, adamantly refuse to give up any of the land. They live in a world of their own, do as they please and only obey the laws of the State when it suits their purposes.
They have used all manner of arguments and rationalizations -- religious, mystical, ideological, and political -- to maintain the status quo. Keeping the land has become their supreme value, even superseding human life. And for many years, a series of Israeli governments have given in to their demands and poured tens of millions of dollars into the settlements.
Today, however, the situation has changed. The present Israeli government has agreed, in principle at least, to removing settlements and to the establishment of a Palestinian state. Despite their being in a minority and despite the wishes of the nation's majority, the radical settlers will not be moved and threaten civil war if forced to do so.
Notwithstanding their constant references to Judaism and Jewish "values," the radicals conveniently ignore the impact the occupation has had on Israeli society. History has shown that occupation brutalizes the occupiers, because they must resort to force to perpetuate their occupation. Over time this corrupts them and erodes their humanity and morality. This happened to the British, the French and the Americans and is happening to Israel. The rising levels of violence among Israelis over the past decade attest to this.
Given the present state of affairs, only two solutions are possible. One solution is that the settlements and settlers be allowed to remain where they are, only we withdraw our army and stop all funding. The millions of shekels saved can then be utilized to alleviate poverty, improve our educational and medical systems, increase pensions for the elderly, and repair and expand the nation's infrastructure.
The other solution is to call the settlers' bluff and give them the civil war they keep threatening to unleash. Looking at the two populations and conditions as they presently exist, the outcome seems clear. If Israel finds itself in this situation, it will be no different than what other countries have encountered as part of their becoming unified and viable nations. Israel, like the United States, cannot continue to exist as two separate and distinct entities.'
Times Online http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article404658.ece Israelis fear civil war over Gaza
Sharon’s plan to pull out of disputed land meets a new form of resistance
'...On the eve of Tony Blair’s visit to the Holy Land, where Britain will offer to help to resolve the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians, the peace efforts now look set to provoke a new struggle within the Jewish state.
Last night the Yesha Council — an umbrella group representing 240,000 Jewish settlers in the West Bank and Gaza Strip — supported the call by a militant leader for a campaign of mass resistance.
“Any law that permits taking Jews from their homes is a law against the basic principles of the state of Israel,” the council’s leaders said in a statement. “It’s illegal. The disengagement plan is illegal and unethical. Removing Jews from their homes is against their human rights and anti-democratic.”
Bentzi Lieberman, the chairman of the council, insisted that the settlers were not calling for a civil war, but there were fears that this could be the outcome if his heavily armed members follow the advice of Pinchas Wallerstein, one of the more militant leaders.
“I am calling (on you) to break through army roadblocks, violate orders declaring territory (around settlements) a closed military area, and to barricade yourselves in your homes if necessary,” Mr Wallerstein wrote in a letter to fellow settlers.
“I’m not afraid to go to prison. I hope that like me, the masses will understand that this is a price we are obliged to pay in order to resist non- violently to the immoral crime of uprooting Jews from their houses by force.”
...Ever since the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, the Israeli leader murdered by a Jewish extremist for signing the Oslo peace agreement with the Palestinians, the spectre of civil strife has haunted peace efforts.
...Behind the defiant rhetoric, senior officials in his Government gave warning that the country was facing an “unprecedented” situation that could lead to open violence as the military begins plans to remove by force 8,000 settlers from Gaza.
“We are very worried about what is going on in Israel,” said one senior official. “The atmosphere is like the eve of a civil war . . . I have never witnessed an atmosphere like it. It has put Israel in turmoil.”
Jewish Telegraphic Agency http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/040702/settlers.shtml Settlers threaten to resist
LESLIE SUSSER
'JERUSALEM - Prime Minister Ariel Sharon faces a new obstacle to his plan to evacuate settlements in the Gaza Strip and West Bank: Right-wing rabbis who have ruled that dismantling settlements contravenes Jewish law. The rabbis are calling on soldiers to disobey orders and on settlers to forcibly resist evacuation.
Given the potential for confrontation, the army and police are training Special Forces to carry out the evacuation, and there is even talk of building detention camps for settlers in case of mass resistance.
The Israeli right wing is split on the issue, and left-wing politicians are warning the rabbis against creating conditions like those preceding the 1995 assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, when some settler rabbis made religious rulings that seemed to condone violence against the prime minister.
No evacuation is scheduled to take place until next year, but the mood on both sides already is tense. In its worse-case scenarios, the defense establishment is not ruling out that some settlers will use guns against Israeli troops, and some legislators have warned settler leaders against following a path that could lead to "civil war."
The latest rabbinical ruling came from a former Ash-kenazic chief rabbi, Avraham Shapira, now head of the Rabbis' Union for the Complete Land of Israel and one of the National Religious Party's most influential spiritual leaders.
In answer to a question from a follower, Shapira came out unequivocally against any evacuation of Jewish settlers in Gaza. "It is clear and obvious that, according to the Torah, handing over parts of our holy land to non-Jews, including parts of Gush Katif, is a sin and a crime," Shapira wrote, referring to one bloc of Gaza settlements.
"Therefore, any thought or idea or decision or any semblance of action of any kind to evacuate residents from Gush Katif and hand the land over to non-Jews is opposed to halachah," or Jewish religious law, he wrote.
"Therefore, nothing must be done to assist the eviction from their homes and land, and everything done to prevent it."
Shapira's call followed a similar ruling by the Yesha rabbinical council, which declared that "no man, citizen, police officer or soldier is authorized to help in uprooting settlements."
But the rabbis aren't the only ones taking a militant stand. In a mid-June interview with a national religious publication, Uri Elitzur, editor of the settler journal Nekuda, declared that "the uprooting of a settlement is illegal and shocking and therefore justifies refusal to obey orders and violence, excluding the use of firearms."
Elitzur added that he would grant his "complete understanding to people who harm those who come to evacuate them."
Coming from a man who served as former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's bureau chief and who ran the National Religious Party's last election campaign, sympathy for violent opposition sent shockwaves through the political system.
...The question is to what extent will settlers take their cue from National Religious Party leaders, and whether they will heed the moderates in their own leadership.
Bentzion Lieberman, chairman of the Yesha settlers' council, echoed Orlev when he said that "uprooting settlements and expelling Jews is a historical and moral crime, but refusing to obey an order is an existential threat to the State of Israel."
But will settlers listen to Lieberman or to the radical rabbis? And what about settler extremists who, even if a minority, are bound to oppose evacuation with violence and create considerable mayhem?'
Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz estimates that thousands of settlers will resist evacuation forcibly, and the IDF is taking into account the possibility that settlers will use firearms.
International Herald Tribune http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/03/29/news/israel.php Settlers threaten violence after Knesset clears obstacle to Gaza withdrawal
Published: WEDNESDAY, MARCH 30, 2005
'...The Yesha Settlers' Council charged that Sharon "brutally prevented the possibility of allowing the people to decide" about a referendum, warning of a "violent confrontation and civil war."
Arieh Eldad of the National Union Party, an ultranationalist faction, said he was certain the confrontation would turn deadly and he held Sharon responsible. "He sentenced a lot of people to death, because he wants a national trauma," the lawmaker said. "The victims will be the settlers."'
Israel Insider - Israel's Daily Magazine http://web.israelinsider.com/views/5142.htm
'...Israel today contains two groups who share the same religion and language, but whose goals and aspirations differ. The vast majority (over 95%) of Israel's population live in pre-1967 Israel. A majority of them want to separate themselves from the Palestinians and for peace are willing to give up most of the land conquered in the Six-Day War.
A hard-core group of religious radicals, numbering less than 3 percent of the Jewish population of Israel and residing in the occupied areas, adamantly refuse to give up any of the land. They live in a world of their own, do as they please and only obey the laws of the State when it suits their purposes.
They have used all manner of arguments and rationalizations -- religious, mystical, ideological, and political -- to maintain the status quo. Keeping the land has become their supreme value, even superseding human life. And for many years, a series of Israeli governments have given in to their demands and poured tens of millions of dollars into the settlements.
Today, however, the situation has changed. The present Israeli government has agreed, in principle at least, to removing settlements and to the establishment of a Palestinian state. Despite their being in a minority and despite the wishes of the nation's majority, the radical settlers will not be moved and threaten civil war if forced to do so.
Notwithstanding their constant references to Judaism and Jewish "values," the radicals conveniently ignore the impact the occupation has had on Israeli society. History has shown that occupation brutalizes the occupiers, because they must resort to force to perpetuate their occupation. Over time this corrupts them and erodes their humanity and morality. This happened to the British, the French and the Americans and is happening to Israel. The rising levels of violence among Israelis over the past decade attest to this.
Given the present state of affairs, only two solutions are possible. One solution is that the settlements and settlers be allowed to remain where they are, only we withdraw our army and stop all funding. The millions of shekels saved can then be utilized to alleviate poverty, improve our educational and medical systems, increase pensions for the elderly, and repair and expand the nation's infrastructure.
The other solution is to call the settlers' bluff and give them the civil war they keep threatening to unleash. Looking at the two populations and conditions as they presently exist, the outcome seems clear. If Israel finds itself in this situation, it will be no different than what other countries have encountered as part of their becoming unified and viable nations. Israel, like the United States, cannot continue to exist as two separate and distinct entities.'
Times Online http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article404658.ece Israelis fear civil war over Gaza
Sharon’s plan to pull out of disputed land meets a new form of resistance
'...On the eve of Tony Blair’s visit to the Holy Land, where Britain will offer to help to resolve the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians, the peace efforts now look set to provoke a new struggle within the Jewish state.
Last night the Yesha Council — an umbrella group representing 240,000 Jewish settlers in the West Bank and Gaza Strip — supported the call by a militant leader for a campaign of mass resistance.
“Any law that permits taking Jews from their homes is a law against the basic principles of the state of Israel,” the council’s leaders said in a statement. “It’s illegal. The disengagement plan is illegal and unethical. Removing Jews from their homes is against their human rights and anti-democratic.”
Bentzi Lieberman, the chairman of the council, insisted that the settlers were not calling for a civil war, but there were fears that this could be the outcome if his heavily armed members follow the advice of Pinchas Wallerstein, one of the more militant leaders.
“I am calling (on you) to break through army roadblocks, violate orders declaring territory (around settlements) a closed military area, and to barricade yourselves in your homes if necessary,” Mr Wallerstein wrote in a letter to fellow settlers.
“I’m not afraid to go to prison. I hope that like me, the masses will understand that this is a price we are obliged to pay in order to resist non- violently to the immoral crime of uprooting Jews from their houses by force.”
...Ever since the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, the Israeli leader murdered by a Jewish extremist for signing the Oslo peace agreement with the Palestinians, the spectre of civil strife has haunted peace efforts.
...Behind the defiant rhetoric, senior officials in his Government gave warning that the country was facing an “unprecedented” situation that could lead to open violence as the military begins plans to remove by force 8,000 settlers from Gaza.
“We are very worried about what is going on in Israel,” said one senior official. “The atmosphere is like the eve of a civil war . . . I have never witnessed an atmosphere like it. It has put Israel in turmoil.”
Jewish Telegraphic Agency http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/040702/settlers.shtml Settlers threaten to resist
LESLIE SUSSER
'JERUSALEM - Prime Minister Ariel Sharon faces a new obstacle to his plan to evacuate settlements in the Gaza Strip and West Bank: Right-wing rabbis who have ruled that dismantling settlements contravenes Jewish law. The rabbis are calling on soldiers to disobey orders and on settlers to forcibly resist evacuation.
Given the potential for confrontation, the army and police are training Special Forces to carry out the evacuation, and there is even talk of building detention camps for settlers in case of mass resistance.
The Israeli right wing is split on the issue, and left-wing politicians are warning the rabbis against creating conditions like those preceding the 1995 assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, when some settler rabbis made religious rulings that seemed to condone violence against the prime minister.
No evacuation is scheduled to take place until next year, but the mood on both sides already is tense. In its worse-case scenarios, the defense establishment is not ruling out that some settlers will use guns against Israeli troops, and some legislators have warned settler leaders against following a path that could lead to "civil war."
The latest rabbinical ruling came from a former Ash-kenazic chief rabbi, Avraham Shapira, now head of the Rabbis' Union for the Complete Land of Israel and one of the National Religious Party's most influential spiritual leaders.
In answer to a question from a follower, Shapira came out unequivocally against any evacuation of Jewish settlers in Gaza. "It is clear and obvious that, according to the Torah, handing over parts of our holy land to non-Jews, including parts of Gush Katif, is a sin and a crime," Shapira wrote, referring to one bloc of Gaza settlements.
"Therefore, any thought or idea or decision or any semblance of action of any kind to evacuate residents from Gush Katif and hand the land over to non-Jews is opposed to halachah," or Jewish religious law, he wrote.
"Therefore, nothing must be done to assist the eviction from their homes and land, and everything done to prevent it."
Shapira's call followed a similar ruling by the Yesha rabbinical council, which declared that "no man, citizen, police officer or soldier is authorized to help in uprooting settlements."
But the rabbis aren't the only ones taking a militant stand. In a mid-June interview with a national religious publication, Uri Elitzur, editor of the settler journal Nekuda, declared that "the uprooting of a settlement is illegal and shocking and therefore justifies refusal to obey orders and violence, excluding the use of firearms."
Elitzur added that he would grant his "complete understanding to people who harm those who come to evacuate them."
Coming from a man who served as former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's bureau chief and who ran the National Religious Party's last election campaign, sympathy for violent opposition sent shockwaves through the political system.
...The question is to what extent will settlers take their cue from National Religious Party leaders, and whether they will heed the moderates in their own leadership.
Bentzion Lieberman, chairman of the Yesha settlers' council, echoed Orlev when he said that "uprooting settlements and expelling Jews is a historical and moral crime, but refusing to obey an order is an existential threat to the State of Israel."
But will settlers listen to Lieberman or to the radical rabbis? And what about settler extremists who, even if a minority, are bound to oppose evacuation with violence and create considerable mayhem?'
Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz estimates that thousands of settlers will resist evacuation forcibly, and the IDF is taking into account the possibility that settlers will use firearms.
International Herald Tribune http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/03/29/news/israel.php Settlers threaten violence after Knesset clears obstacle to Gaza withdrawal
Published: WEDNESDAY, MARCH 30, 2005
'...The Yesha Settlers' Council charged that Sharon "brutally prevented the possibility of allowing the people to decide" about a referendum, warning of a "violent confrontation and civil war."
Arieh Eldad of the National Union Party, an ultranationalist faction, said he was certain the confrontation would turn deadly and he held Sharon responsible. "He sentenced a lot of people to death, because he wants a national trauma," the lawmaker said. "The victims will be the settlers."'
Was there any actual resistance? Violent resistance that is, not protesting/lobbying.
Do you have any articles that describe civil wars that have taken place in Israel?
Do you have any articles from the past year or so...not 2004 and 2005 about the prospects of the 3% of Israel living in settlements wanting to perhaps, maybe, potentially start a civil war?
Why not post some articles about the ACTUAL civil war/fighting in Gaza recently, and its effects on the Palestinian people.
I think you two need to take a vacation together. Gay cruise?
whoever smelt it dealt it...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Do you have any articles from the past year or so...not 2004 and 2005 about the prospects of the 3% of Israel living in settlements wanting to perhaps, maybe, potentially start a civil war?
No, because no more settlements have been dismantled since then. They've just continued being built.
No, because no more settlements have been dismantled since then. They've just continued being built.
No, because no more settlements have been dismantled since then. They've just continued being built.
There was no civil war in Gaza. Fatah were kicked out of Gaza in a matter of a couple of weeks. Only a handful of people were killed.
Do you understand English? Read the following sentence again...
'They pose a constant threat of civil war if their interests are not fully respected.'
When was there full out civil war/violence amongst Israeli's? Especially violence that relates to what you posted in those articles from 4 years ago?
What do settlements have to do with civil wars being fought within Israel? And what does this have to do with you not being able to prove it?
I'm just wondering when there was an Israeli civil war. I can't seem to find this occurance.
You speak of a threat, but you backed it up with articles from questionable news sources from 4 years ago. Nothign concrete, no actual war. These threats you speak of have no impact on Israel.
"There was no civil war in Gaza. Fatah were kicked out of Gaza in a matter of a couple of weeks. Only a handful of people were killed."
75 Hamas Militants killed. 159 Fatah killed. 95 civilians killed. I'm sure their families appreciate their losses apart an unimportant handful...
That's 329 more killed than Israelis dying in civil wars...
You speak of a threat, but you backed it up with articles from questionable news sources from 4 years ago. Nothign concrete, no actual war. These threats you speak of have no impact on Israel.
The Times. The International Herald Tribune. Israel Insider - Israel's Daily Magazine. Counterpunch.
'They pose a constant threat of civil war if their interests are not fully respected.'
This quote is from an Israeli by the way.
If you really are this confused about it then I suggest you read the articles I posted above. They explain it clearly.
That's because you're confused.
The Times. The International Herald Tribune. Israel Insider - Israel's Daily Magazine. Counterpunch.
There was no civil war. There was factional in-fighting sponsored by Israel and the U.S as has been proven. It didn't lead to all-out civil war.
I understand you said 'threat.' But you are quoting people's opinions of 'threat of civil war' from 4 years ago! Completely irrelevant, especially since no civil war occurred, and no civil war has ever occurred. Yet you fail to mention civil fighting/conflict/war in Gaza like it never existed.
Then you call it factional in-fighting sponsored by Israel and the US.
Did Hamas have anything to do with the violence in 2006? Did they kill Palestinian civilians? The answer is yes.
I understand you said 'threat.' But you are quoting people's opinions of 'threat of civil war' from 4 years ago! Completely irrelevant, especially since no civil war occurred, and no civil war has ever occurred.
This is ALL THINGS CONSIDERED from NPR News. I'm Michele Norris.
MELISSA BLOCK, host:
And I'm Melissa Block.
Israel has declared the West Bank town of Hebron a closed military zone and today Israeli security forces began enforcing a ban on non-residents. Jewish settlers have been rioting in Hebron, angry about a government move to evict Jewish squatters from the former Palestinian market. Settlers have thrown rocks and eggs at Israeli security officers, who've made more than two dozen arrests. From Hebron, NPR's Eric Westervelt reports.
ERIC WESTERVELT reporting:
Today one of the former Palestinian market stalls in Hebron is a study hall where young Jewish settler children recite the Torah during class time.
(Soundbite of children reciting in Hebrew)
WESTERVELT: Four years ago eight Jewish families made homes in these former market stalls next to a settler enclave named after a Jewish baby girl killed by a Palestinian sniper. The squatter families and their supporters ignored an Israeli court order to vacate the area by January 15th. Moves to evict the squatters set off fights, signaling that West Bank settlers aren't likely to go as peacefully as those removed last summer from Gaza Strip settlements such as Gush Katif.
Mr. CHAIM COHEN (Business Consultant): Listen, in Gush Katif we tried to be nice, to say `We love you.' The nice way didn't succeed.
WESTERVELT: Chaim Cohen, a business consultant, made his way from Tel Aviv and around local checkpoints to support the squatters and, he says, to draw the line in the opening fight over West Bank settlements. `If we don't resist here,' he says, `where will the evictions stop?' He says settlers have the right to live on land that he says was stolen by Arabs during a 1929 massacre of Jewish families.
Mr. COHEN: I believe everyone that is normal, is logical, if people comes to throw him from his home, he's trying to do like normal guy, to fight. It's a Jewish place.
Mr. DAVID WILDER (Hebron Community Spokesman): The situation is flammable. Tensions are running very high.
WESTERVELT: David Wilder is the spokesman for the Jewish community of Hebron, a community whose presence has deep religious resonance for many Jews. Judaism's second holiest city is site of the biblical Tomb of the Patriarchs where, tradition has it, Abraham and his sons are buried. Wilder says he doesn't condone the stone throwing and violence, much of it by young people, but he says the Israeli government has provoked them with displays of force. He says they're trying to work out a compromise to rent the disputed market stalls and they've asked for a court injunction against eviction. But Wilder warns that settlers won't stand idly by if there are any more moves to evict.
Mr. WILDER: Again, I hope very much that we don't reach that situation. If, God forbid, that does happen, then for sure there's going to be resistance. Nobody's going to get up and walk out. People say enough is enough.
(Soundbite of hooves on street)
WESTERVELT: Israeli riot police on horseback and on foot patrol moved in just in front of the disputed market stalls today in a show of force. Interim Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Monday again vowed to get tough, saying there would be no forgiveness or compromises with what he called unacceptable behavior. Several police were injured by rocks and debris in these latest clashes. Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld says security forces are ready to do whatever is needed to enforce government political decisions on eviction.
Mr. MICKY ROSENFELD (Police Spokesman): If necessary in the future we will be using all the facilities that we have in order to deal with disturbances and riots that take place, such as those that have happened over the last three days in Hebron.
WESTERVELT: A main road divides Hebron's roughly 1,000 Jewish settlers from the 170,000 Palestinians here. It's a street that's off limits to local Arabs.
PEDRAS (Unemployed Butcher): Even here the street not allowed for me, I walk in the street. It's not allowed. Maybe the soldier will shoot me. (Unintelligible).
WESTERVELT: Pedras(ph) is a 57-year-old unemployed Palestinian. He says he lost his meat shop in the older Absuf(ph) market section of Hebron when Jewish settlers expanded into his area in 2000.
PEDRAS: I have shop in town, in the market. Six year I don't open it. I am a butcher man. I don't have business in my shop. Closed six years. All the president, from any country, from America, who are speaking about this process will forget the word of the freedom. Where is the freedom?
WESTERVELT: Pedras says he's deeply skeptical Israeli police will ever move to evict the squatters from the market area. `This is just a show,' he says. But eviction is something Israel's acting prime minister has vowed to carry out within weeks. Eric Westervelt, NPR News, Hebron.
'Defiant Jewish settlers locked the gates to their communities, formed human chains and burned tyres to block troops from delivering eviction notices today, as Israel began its historic pullout from the Gaza Strip after 38 years of occupation.
Police and soldiers waited patiently in the sweltering sun and avoided confrontation at the behest of their commanders. In one scene, a sobbing settler pleaded with a brigadier general not to evict him before the two men embraced.
Resistance was stiff in Gush Katif. Hundreds of settlers blocked the gates of Neve Dekalim, Gaza's largest settlement, to prevent the forces from entering.
Dozens of observant Jewish men, wearing white prayer shawls, held morning prayers at the gate, appealing for divine intervention to block the withdrawal. A crowd of youths wearing orange, the color of defiance, sat on the streets and screamed at the soldiers. "You're a partner to a crime," screamed one protester.
Troops moved into the community through a second entrance, only to be blocked by crowds who burned tires and formed human chains. When a small group of soldiers managed to enter, settlers took the eviction notices and burned them. One policeman was covered in green paint thrown by protesters.'
The word 'War' or 'threat of war' does not describe what is happening or what has happened within Israel.
Here. I'll post it for you again. Read it sloooowwwly.
'Because Israel's voting system allocates seats purely on the basis of national votes for a party, not by district, extremist parties have substantial influence, especially since minority government in Israel is the norm rather than the exception. Moreover, extremists have had an important presence with the large Likud party. Just as there is no doubt that they do much, directly and indirectly, to shape Israeli policy. An Israeli commentator describes the current situation as follows:
"It is not difficult to imagine what the settlers' lobby means in a country with notoriously narrow parliamentary majorities. Though 70 percent of voters say in the polls that they support abandoning some of the settlements, 400,000 settlers and their right-wing and Orthodox supporters within Israel proper now control at least half the national vote. They pose a constant threat of civil war if their interests are not fully respected. At their core is a group of fanatical nationalists and religious fundamentalists who believe they know exactly what God and Abraham said to each other in the Bronze age".
You can post articles that say 'threats of civil war' but these threats have never come true. And it doesn't look like they ever will.
You can't exaggerate protesting into civil war...that's a bit too much of a stretch don't you think
I never said there was a civil war In Israel.
Maybe you don't understand the meaning of the word 'threat'?
I didn't exagerate protesting into civil war.
Now that we've cleared that up. What's your point? Are you suggesting that there are no extremists in Israel? Are you suggesting that the settler movements don't pose a threat of civil war? What do you think would happen if Israel decided to abide by international law and withdraw from the illegally occupied territories? Do you think the settlers would go peacefully?
I've already provided ample evidence that the settler movement intends to fight in order to stay where they are. I've already provided ample evidence - which you got so hysterical about - that the settlers are largely influenced by the extreme right and religious fanatics.
I never said there was a civil war In Israel.
Maybe you don't understand the meaning of the word 'threat'?
I didn't exagerate protesting into civil war.
Now that we've cleared that up. What's your point? Are you suggesting that there are no extremists in Israel? Are you suggesting that the settler movements don't pose a threat of civil war? What do you think would happen if Israel decided to abide by international law and withdraw from the illegally occupied territories? Do you think the settlers would go peacefully?
I've already provided ample evidence that the settler movement intends to fight in order to stay where they are. I've already provided ample evidence - which you got so hysterical about - that the settlers are largely influenced by the extreme right and religious fanatics.
O.k, so what's your point?
My original point was a response to you posting that DNA quote, and how you were just spreading BS/garbage/hate which had nothing to do with the actual discussion or situation in Israel. I still stand by that.
You responded with 2 paragraphs, someone else's words obviously, about Israel's voting system and how the 400,000 ultra right wing conservative orthodox Jews control the country. You quoted someone saying there is constant threat of civil war. Then backed up that quote with numerous articles from '04 about potential civil war, and then articles from 2006 about Jewish protesters from the settlements being evacuated.
1) Those two paragraphs were completely irrelevant in the first place
2) I then set out to dispute the civil war notion, threat or actual war, because it gives people here the wrong idea that there is civil unrest and violence widespread in Israel, when this is in fact not true.
I disagree with the statement that there is constant threat of civil war in Israel, and I set out to prove that by showing that there has never been a civil war in Israel and those articles you posted from 2004 that warned of civil war, never came true.
If people were forced out of their homes, of course they would protest. But Civil War? Not going to happen.
Oh yeah, you also classified the Hamas-Fatah conflict as an afterthought, when really hundreds died or were injured.
Why do I make a big fuss?
Well, when uninformed people read your posts, they would assume there is civil fighting/war/unrest in Israel, but no conflicts at all within the Palestinian people. I don't want people to be that misinformed or misguided.
My point above is not to make the Palestinian side look worse, but to show that Byrznie clearly doesn't mention both sides. Cause if he did, he would at least mention the actual civil fighting and deaths within Palestine and not the potential civil war suggested by some writers 4 years ago.
My original point was a response to you posting that DNA quote, and how you were just spreading BS/garbage/hate which had nothing to do with the actual discussion or situation in Israel. I still stand by that.
You responded with 2 paragraphs, someone else's words obviously, about Israel's voting system and how the 400,000 ultra right wing conservative orthodox Jews control the country. You quoted someone saying there is constant threat of civil war. Then backed up that quote with numerous articles from '04 about potential civil war, and then articles from 2006 about Jewish protesters from the settlements being evacuated.
1) Those two paragraphs were completely irrelevant in the first place
They weren't irrelevant. Roland mentioned the occupation - you know? The occupation? He mentioned how the extreme right were never going to back down. I then posted some quotes from Jewish Rabbi's which supported his comments. You then threw a fit.
2) I then set out to dispute the civil war notion, threat or actual war, because it gives people here the wrong idea that there is civil unrest and violence widespread in Israel, when this is in fact not true.
There is civil unrest and violence in Israel when there is any mention of disbanding the settlements. I proved that above with numerous articles.
I disagree with the statement that there is constant threat of civil war in Israel, and I set out to prove that by showing that there has never been a civil war in Israel and those articles you posted from 2004 that warned of civil war, never came true.
You haven't proven anything. And there hasn't been civil war in Israel because the settlers were located elsewhere on other illegal settlements and the settlement building has continued at an even faster rate since then.
Well, when uninformed people read your posts, they would assume there is civil fighting/war/unrest in Israel, but no conflicts at all within the Palestinian people.
My point above is not to make the Palestinian side look worse, but to show that Byrznie clearly doesn't mention both sides. Cause if he did, he would at least mention the actual civil fighting and deaths within Palestine and not the potential civil war suggested by some writers 4 years ago.
I didn't mention the Palestinian in-fighting of 2006 because it isn't relevant. And I didn't mention the potential war within Israel if the settlements were disbanded. It was you who jumped on that sentence and made a big song and dance about it.
Israel's army said it had killed a senior member of the Islamic Jihad militant group in the strike but could not confirm the second reported death.
The militant, Tarek Jumea Abu Ali, 24, was wanted by Israel for instigating attacks, Israel's army said.
Islamic Jihad had warned attacks on its militants in the West Bank could jeopardise a truce in the Gaza Strip.
The Israeli army said the militant died in an exchange of fire, and that explosive devices and weapons were found in his flat.
But neighbours say the two men died in an explosion.
The violence came as the ceasefire between Israel and the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip went into its sixth day.
While the West Bank is not covered by this truce, the reaction of militant groups in Gaza to Israeli operations in the West Bank is expected to test the ceasefire, which was brokered by Egypt.
Meanwhile, the Israeli army said a mortar was fired from Gaza into Israel late on Monday, about three hours before the Nablus operation.
No group has claimed responsibility for the mortar attack, which caused no casualties, and Israel said it did not consider the strike to be a breach of the Gaza ceasefire.
Previous cease-fires in Gaza have broken down after retaliation from Gaza to Israeli operations in the West Bank.
Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is travelling to the Egyptian Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh for talks with President Hosni Mubarak.
Their meeting is expected to focus on the ceasefire's progress and on a prisoner swap that forms part of the agreement.
Cairo wants Israel to re-open the Rafah crossing point between Egypt and Gaza, but Israel has made it clear the crossing will only be opened only if its soldier, Gilad Shalit, is released by Hamas.
Comments
I think he was referring to Israel's continued sabre rattling as a whole.
Edit: Just saw your last post.
Constant threat of civil war? That is just not true, and civil wars have never happened in Israel.
- These articles are from 2004. Clearly, no civil war happened. There has never been a civil war in Israel, unlike some of the surrounding countries.
- Your articles come from ridiculous sources. Some are forums! Salon.com? Please...
- You are trying to tell me that Israel has had civil wars, but you send 4 articles from unknown, untrustworthy sources from 4 years ago!!! about a civil war that never happened!
- Even if your sources were legit, they speak of something that DID NOT HAPPEN, 4 years ago.
What civil war are you talking about?
.....
http://web.israelinsider.com/views/5142.htm
'...Israel today contains two groups who share the same religion and language, but whose goals and aspirations differ. The vast majority (over 95%) of Israel's population live in pre-1967 Israel. A majority of them want to separate themselves from the Palestinians and for peace are willing to give up most of the land conquered in the Six-Day War.
A hard-core group of religious radicals, numbering less than 3 percent of the Jewish population of Israel and residing in the occupied areas, adamantly refuse to give up any of the land. They live in a world of their own, do as they please and only obey the laws of the State when it suits their purposes.
They have used all manner of arguments and rationalizations -- religious, mystical, ideological, and political -- to maintain the status quo. Keeping the land has become their supreme value, even superseding human life. And for many years, a series of Israeli governments have given in to their demands and poured tens of millions of dollars into the settlements.
Today, however, the situation has changed. The present Israeli government has agreed, in principle at least, to removing settlements and to the establishment of a Palestinian state. Despite their being in a minority and despite the wishes of the nation's majority, the radical settlers will not be moved and threaten civil war if forced to do so.
Notwithstanding their constant references to Judaism and Jewish "values," the radicals conveniently ignore the impact the occupation has had on Israeli society. History has shown that occupation brutalizes the occupiers, because they must resort to force to perpetuate their occupation. Over time this corrupts them and erodes their humanity and morality. This happened to the British, the French and the Americans and is happening to Israel. The rising levels of violence among Israelis over the past decade attest to this.
Given the present state of affairs, only two solutions are possible. One solution is that the settlements and settlers be allowed to remain where they are, only we withdraw our army and stop all funding. The millions of shekels saved can then be utilized to alleviate poverty, improve our educational and medical systems, increase pensions for the elderly, and repair and expand the nation's infrastructure.
The other solution is to call the settlers' bluff and give them the civil war they keep threatening to unleash. Looking at the two populations and conditions as they presently exist, the outcome seems clear. If Israel finds itself in this situation, it will be no different than what other countries have encountered as part of their becoming unified and viable nations. Israel, like the United States, cannot continue to exist as two separate and distinct entities.'
Times Online
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article404658.ece
Israelis fear civil war over Gaza
Sharon’s plan to pull out of disputed land meets a new form of resistance
'...On the eve of Tony Blair’s visit to the Holy Land, where Britain will offer to help to resolve the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians, the peace efforts now look set to provoke a new struggle within the Jewish state.
Last night the Yesha Council — an umbrella group representing 240,000 Jewish settlers in the West Bank and Gaza Strip — supported the call by a militant leader for a campaign of mass resistance.
“Any law that permits taking Jews from their homes is a law against the basic principles of the state of Israel,” the council’s leaders said in a statement. “It’s illegal. The disengagement plan is illegal and unethical. Removing Jews from their homes is against their human rights and anti-democratic.”
Bentzi Lieberman, the chairman of the council, insisted that the settlers were not calling for a civil war, but there were fears that this could be the outcome if his heavily armed members follow the advice of Pinchas Wallerstein, one of the more militant leaders.
“I am calling (on you) to break through army roadblocks, violate orders declaring territory (around settlements) a closed military area, and to barricade yourselves in your homes if necessary,” Mr Wallerstein wrote in a letter to fellow settlers.
“I’m not afraid to go to prison. I hope that like me, the masses will understand that this is a price we are obliged to pay in order to resist non- violently to the immoral crime of uprooting Jews from their houses by force.”
...Ever since the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, the Israeli leader murdered by a Jewish extremist for signing the Oslo peace agreement with the Palestinians, the spectre of civil strife has haunted peace efforts.
...Behind the defiant rhetoric, senior officials in his Government gave warning that the country was facing an “unprecedented” situation that could lead to open violence as the military begins plans to remove by force 8,000 settlers from Gaza.
“We are very worried about what is going on in Israel,” said one senior official. “The atmosphere is like the eve of a civil war . . . I have never witnessed an atmosphere like it. It has put Israel in turmoil.”
Jewish Telegraphic Agency
http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/040702/settlers.shtml
Settlers threaten to resist
LESLIE SUSSER
'JERUSALEM - Prime Minister Ariel Sharon faces a new obstacle to his plan to evacuate settlements in the Gaza Strip and West Bank: Right-wing rabbis who have ruled that dismantling settlements contravenes Jewish law. The rabbis are calling on soldiers to disobey orders and on settlers to forcibly resist evacuation.
Given the potential for confrontation, the army and police are training Special Forces to carry out the evacuation, and there is even talk of building detention camps for settlers in case of mass resistance.
The Israeli right wing is split on the issue, and left-wing politicians are warning the rabbis against creating conditions like those preceding the 1995 assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, when some settler rabbis made religious rulings that seemed to condone violence against the prime minister.
No evacuation is scheduled to take place until next year, but the mood on both sides already is tense. In its worse-case scenarios, the defense establishment is not ruling out that some settlers will use guns against Israeli troops, and some legislators have warned settler leaders against following a path that could lead to "civil war."
The latest rabbinical ruling came from a former Ash-kenazic chief rabbi, Avraham Shapira, now head of the Rabbis' Union for the Complete Land of Israel and one of the National Religious Party's most influential spiritual leaders.
In answer to a question from a follower, Shapira came out unequivocally against any evacuation of Jewish settlers in Gaza. "It is clear and obvious that, according to the Torah, handing over parts of our holy land to non-Jews, including parts of Gush Katif, is a sin and a crime," Shapira wrote, referring to one bloc of Gaza settlements.
"Therefore, any thought or idea or decision or any semblance of action of any kind to evacuate residents from Gush Katif and hand the land over to non-Jews is opposed to halachah," or Jewish religious law, he wrote.
"Therefore, nothing must be done to assist the eviction from their homes and land, and everything done to prevent it."
Shapira's call followed a similar ruling by the Yesha rabbinical council, which declared that "no man, citizen, police officer or soldier is authorized to help in uprooting settlements."
But the rabbis aren't the only ones taking a militant stand. In a mid-June interview with a national religious publication, Uri Elitzur, editor of the settler journal Nekuda, declared that "the uprooting of a settlement is illegal and shocking and therefore justifies refusal to obey orders and violence, excluding the use of firearms."
Elitzur added that he would grant his "complete understanding to people who harm those who come to evacuate them."
Coming from a man who served as former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's bureau chief and who ran the National Religious Party's last election campaign, sympathy for violent opposition sent shockwaves through the political system.
...The question is to what extent will settlers take their cue from National Religious Party leaders, and whether they will heed the moderates in their own leadership.
Bentzion Lieberman, chairman of the Yesha settlers' council, echoed Orlev when he said that "uprooting settlements and expelling Jews is a historical and moral crime, but refusing to obey an order is an existential threat to the State of Israel."
But will settlers listen to Lieberman or to the radical rabbis? And what about settler extremists who, even if a minority, are bound to oppose evacuation with violence and create considerable mayhem?'
Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz estimates that thousands of settlers will resist evacuation forcibly, and the IDF is taking into account the possibility that settlers will use firearms.
International Herald Tribune
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/03/29/news/israel.php
Settlers threaten violence after Knesset clears obstacle to Gaza withdrawal
Published: WEDNESDAY, MARCH 30, 2005
'...The Yesha Settlers' Council charged that Sharon "brutally prevented the possibility of allowing the people to decide" about a referendum, warning of a "violent confrontation and civil war."
Arieh Eldad of the National Union Party, an ultranationalist faction, said he was certain the confrontation would turn deadly and he held Sharon responsible. "He sentenced a lot of people to death, because he wants a national trauma," the lawmaker said. "The victims will be the settlers."'
Was there any actual resistance? Violent resistance that is, not protesting/lobbying.
Do you have any articles that describe civil wars that have taken place in Israel?
Do you have any articles from the past year or so...not 2004 and 2005 about the prospects of the 3% of Israel living in settlements wanting to perhaps, maybe, potentially start a civil war?
Why not post some articles about the ACTUAL civil war/fighting in Gaza recently, and its effects on the Palestinian people.
whoever smelt it dealt it...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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Yes there was.
http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=5160883
No, because no more settlements have been dismantled since then. They've just continued being built.
No, because no more settlements have been dismantled since then. They've just continued being built.
There was no civil war in Gaza. Fatah were kicked out of Gaza in a matter of a couple of weeks. Only a handful of people were killed.
Do you understand English? Read the following sentence again...
'They pose a constant threat of civil war if their interests are not fully respected.'
When was there full out civil war/violence amongst Israeli's? Especially violence that relates to what you posted in those articles from 4 years ago?
What do settlements have to do with civil wars being fought within Israel? And what does this have to do with you not being able to prove it?
I'm just wondering when there was an Israeli civil war. I can't seem to find this occurance.
You speak of a threat, but you backed it up with articles from questionable news sources from 4 years ago. Nothign concrete, no actual war. These threats you speak of have no impact on Israel.
"There was no civil war in Gaza. Fatah were kicked out of Gaza in a matter of a couple of weeks. Only a handful of people were killed."
75 Hamas Militants killed. 159 Fatah killed. 95 civilians killed. I'm sure their families appreciate their losses apart an unimportant handful...
That's 329 more killed than Israelis dying in civil wars...
I never said there was civil war in Israel.
Read the sentence again and try not to blink...
'They pose a constant threat of civil war if their interests are not fully respected.'
This quote is from an Israeli by the way.
If you really are this confused about it then I suggest you read the articles I posted above. They explain it clearly.
That's because you're confused.
The Times. The International Herald Tribune. Israel Insider - Israel's Daily Magazine. Counterpunch.
There was no civil war. There was factional in-fighting sponsored by Israel and the U.S as has been proven. It didn't lead to all-out civil war.
I understand you said 'threat.' But you are quoting people's opinions of 'threat of civil war' from 4 years ago! Completely irrelevant, especially since no civil war occurred, and no civil war has ever occurred. Yet you fail to mention civil fighting/conflict/war in Gaza like it never existed.
Then you call it factional in-fighting sponsored by Israel and the US.
Did Hamas have anything to do with the violence in 2006? Did they kill Palestinian civilians? The answer is yes.
http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=5160883
Israeli Settlers Fight Eviction from Hebron
January 17, 2006
MICHELE NORRIS, host:
This is ALL THINGS CONSIDERED from NPR News. I'm Michele Norris.
MELISSA BLOCK, host:
And I'm Melissa Block.
Israel has declared the West Bank town of Hebron a closed military zone and today Israeli security forces began enforcing a ban on non-residents. Jewish settlers have been rioting in Hebron, angry about a government move to evict Jewish squatters from the former Palestinian market. Settlers have thrown rocks and eggs at Israeli security officers, who've made more than two dozen arrests. From Hebron, NPR's Eric Westervelt reports.
ERIC WESTERVELT reporting:
Today one of the former Palestinian market stalls in Hebron is a study hall where young Jewish settler children recite the Torah during class time.
(Soundbite of children reciting in Hebrew)
WESTERVELT: Four years ago eight Jewish families made homes in these former market stalls next to a settler enclave named after a Jewish baby girl killed by a Palestinian sniper. The squatter families and their supporters ignored an Israeli court order to vacate the area by January 15th. Moves to evict the squatters set off fights, signaling that West Bank settlers aren't likely to go as peacefully as those removed last summer from Gaza Strip settlements such as Gush Katif.
Mr. CHAIM COHEN (Business Consultant): Listen, in Gush Katif we tried to be nice, to say `We love you.' The nice way didn't succeed.
WESTERVELT: Chaim Cohen, a business consultant, made his way from Tel Aviv and around local checkpoints to support the squatters and, he says, to draw the line in the opening fight over West Bank settlements. `If we don't resist here,' he says, `where will the evictions stop?' He says settlers have the right to live on land that he says was stolen by Arabs during a 1929 massacre of Jewish families.
Mr. COHEN: I believe everyone that is normal, is logical, if people comes to throw him from his home, he's trying to do like normal guy, to fight. It's a Jewish place.
Mr. DAVID WILDER (Hebron Community Spokesman): The situation is flammable. Tensions are running very high.
WESTERVELT: David Wilder is the spokesman for the Jewish community of Hebron, a community whose presence has deep religious resonance for many Jews. Judaism's second holiest city is site of the biblical Tomb of the Patriarchs where, tradition has it, Abraham and his sons are buried. Wilder says he doesn't condone the stone throwing and violence, much of it by young people, but he says the Israeli government has provoked them with displays of force. He says they're trying to work out a compromise to rent the disputed market stalls and they've asked for a court injunction against eviction. But Wilder warns that settlers won't stand idly by if there are any more moves to evict.
Mr. WILDER: Again, I hope very much that we don't reach that situation. If, God forbid, that does happen, then for sure there's going to be resistance. Nobody's going to get up and walk out. People say enough is enough.
(Soundbite of hooves on street)
WESTERVELT: Israeli riot police on horseback and on foot patrol moved in just in front of the disputed market stalls today in a show of force. Interim Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Monday again vowed to get tough, saying there would be no forgiveness or compromises with what he called unacceptable behavior. Several police were injured by rocks and debris in these latest clashes. Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld says security forces are ready to do whatever is needed to enforce government political decisions on eviction.
Mr. MICKY ROSENFELD (Police Spokesman): If necessary in the future we will be using all the facilities that we have in order to deal with disturbances and riots that take place, such as those that have happened over the last three days in Hebron.
WESTERVELT: A main road divides Hebron's roughly 1,000 Jewish settlers from the 170,000 Palestinians here. It's a street that's off limits to local Arabs.
PEDRAS (Unemployed Butcher): Even here the street not allowed for me, I walk in the street. It's not allowed. Maybe the soldier will shoot me. (Unintelligible).
WESTERVELT: Pedras(ph) is a 57-year-old unemployed Palestinian. He says he lost his meat shop in the older Absuf(ph) market section of Hebron when Jewish settlers expanded into his area in 2000.
PEDRAS: I have shop in town, in the market. Six year I don't open it. I am a butcher man. I don't have business in my shop. Closed six years. All the president, from any country, from America, who are speaking about this process will forget the word of the freedom. Where is the freedom?
WESTERVELT: Pedras says he's deeply skeptical Israeli police will ever move to evict the squatters from the market area. `This is just a show,' he says. But eviction is something Israel's acting prime minister has vowed to carry out within weeks. Eric Westervelt, NPR News, Hebron.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-08-15-gaza-monday_x.htm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/settlers-block-soldiers-with-eviction-notices-503016.html
Settlers block soldiers with eviction notices
By Amy Teibel, AP
Monday, 15 August 2005
'Defiant Jewish settlers locked the gates to their communities, formed human chains and burned tyres to block troops from delivering eviction notices today, as Israel began its historic pullout from the Gaza Strip after 38 years of occupation.
Police and soldiers waited patiently in the sweltering sun and avoided confrontation at the behest of their commanders. In one scene, a sobbing settler pleaded with a brigadier general not to evict him before the two men embraced.
Resistance was stiff in Gush Katif. Hundreds of settlers blocked the gates of Neve Dekalim, Gaza's largest settlement, to prevent the forces from entering.
Dozens of observant Jewish men, wearing white prayer shawls, held morning prayers at the gate, appealing for divine intervention to block the withdrawal. A crowd of youths wearing orange, the color of defiance, sat on the streets and screamed at the soldiers. "You're a partner to a crime," screamed one protester.
Troops moved into the community through a second entrance, only to be blocked by crowds who burned tires and formed human chains. When a small group of soldiers managed to enter, settlers took the eviction notices and burned them. One policeman was covered in green paint thrown by protesters.'
The word 'War' or 'threat of war' does not describe what is happening or what has happened within Israel.
Yes it does. Did you not read the articles I posted. They explain it clearly. Nobody else here has a problem understanding it.
Here. I'll post it for you again. Read it sloooowwwly.
'Because Israel's voting system allocates seats purely on the basis of national votes for a party, not by district, extremist parties have substantial influence, especially since minority government in Israel is the norm rather than the exception. Moreover, extremists have had an important presence with the large Likud party. Just as there is no doubt that they do much, directly and indirectly, to shape Israeli policy. An Israeli commentator describes the current situation as follows:
"It is not difficult to imagine what the settlers' lobby means in a country with notoriously narrow parliamentary majorities. Though 70 percent of voters say in the polls that they support abandoning some of the settlements, 400,000 settlers and their right-wing and Orthodox supporters within Israel proper now control at least half the national vote. They pose a constant threat of civil war if their interests are not fully respected. At their core is a group of fanatical nationalists and religious fundamentalists who believe they know exactly what God and Abraham said to each other in the Bronze age".
You can post articles that say 'threats of civil war' but these threats have never come true. And it doesn't look like they ever will.
You can't exaggerate protesting into civil war...that's a bit too much of a stretch don't you think
I never said there was a civil war In Israel.
Maybe you don't understand the meaning of the word 'threat'?
I didn't exagerate protesting into civil war.
Now that we've cleared that up. What's your point? Are you suggesting that there are no extremists in Israel? Are you suggesting that the settler movements don't pose a threat of civil war? What do you think would happen if Israel decided to abide by international law and withdraw from the illegally occupied territories? Do you think the settlers would go peacefully?
I've already provided ample evidence that the settler movement intends to fight in order to stay where they are. I've already provided ample evidence - which you got so hysterical about - that the settlers are largely influenced by the extreme right and religious fanatics.
O.k, so what's your point?
My original point was a response to you posting that DNA quote, and how you were just spreading BS/garbage/hate which had nothing to do with the actual discussion or situation in Israel. I still stand by that.
You responded with 2 paragraphs, someone else's words obviously, about Israel's voting system and how the 400,000 ultra right wing conservative orthodox Jews control the country. You quoted someone saying there is constant threat of civil war. Then backed up that quote with numerous articles from '04 about potential civil war, and then articles from 2006 about Jewish protesters from the settlements being evacuated.
1) Those two paragraphs were completely irrelevant in the first place
2) I then set out to dispute the civil war notion, threat or actual war, because it gives people here the wrong idea that there is civil unrest and violence widespread in Israel, when this is in fact not true.
I disagree with the statement that there is constant threat of civil war in Israel, and I set out to prove that by showing that there has never been a civil war in Israel and those articles you posted from 2004 that warned of civil war, never came true.
If people were forced out of their homes, of course they would protest. But Civil War? Not going to happen.
Oh yeah, you also classified the Hamas-Fatah conflict as an afterthought, when really hundreds died or were injured.
Why do I make a big fuss?
Well, when uninformed people read your posts, they would assume there is civil fighting/war/unrest in Israel, but no conflicts at all within the Palestinian people. I don't want people to be that misinformed or misguided.
My point above is not to make the Palestinian side look worse, but to show that Byrznie clearly doesn't mention both sides. Cause if he did, he would at least mention the actual civil fighting and deaths within Palestine and not the potential civil war suggested by some writers 4 years ago.
They weren't irrelevant. Roland mentioned the occupation - you know? The occupation? He mentioned how the extreme right were never going to back down. I then posted some quotes from Jewish Rabbi's which supported his comments. You then threw a fit.
There is civil unrest and violence in Israel when there is any mention of disbanding the settlements. I proved that above with numerous articles.
You haven't proven anything. And there hasn't been civil war in Israel because the settlers were located elsewhere on other illegal settlements and the settlement building has continued at an even faster rate since then.
That's your opinion. Though the opinion of the settlers is somewhat different.
Only if they're stupid.
I didn't mention the Palestinian in-fighting of 2006 because it isn't relevant. And I didn't mention the potential war within Israel if the settlements were disbanded. It was you who jumped on that sentence and made a big song and dance about it.
Israelis 'kill two in West Bank
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7470530.stm
'Israeli forces have killed two Palestinians in the West Bank city of Nablus, Palestinian sources say.
Israel's army said it had killed a senior member of the Islamic Jihad militant group in the strike but could not confirm the second reported death.
The militant, Tarek Jumea Abu Ali, 24, was wanted by Israel for instigating attacks, Israel's army said.
Islamic Jihad had warned attacks on its militants in the West Bank could jeopardise a truce in the Gaza Strip.
The Israeli army said the militant died in an exchange of fire, and that explosive devices and weapons were found in his flat.
But neighbours say the two men died in an explosion.
The violence came as the ceasefire between Israel and the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip went into its sixth day.
While the West Bank is not covered by this truce, the reaction of militant groups in Gaza to Israeli operations in the West Bank is expected to test the ceasefire, which was brokered by Egypt.
Meanwhile, the Israeli army said a mortar was fired from Gaza into Israel late on Monday, about three hours before the Nablus operation.
No group has claimed responsibility for the mortar attack, which caused no casualties, and Israel said it did not consider the strike to be a breach of the Gaza ceasefire.
Previous cease-fires in Gaza have broken down after retaliation from Gaza to Israeli operations in the West Bank.
Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is travelling to the Egyptian Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh for talks with President Hosni Mubarak.
Their meeting is expected to focus on the ceasefire's progress and on a prisoner swap that forms part of the agreement.
Cairo wants Israel to re-open the Rafah crossing point between Egypt and Gaza, but Israel has made it clear the crossing will only be opened only if its soldier, Gilad Shalit, is released by Hamas.
6/30/98 Minneapolis, 10/8/00 East Troy (Brrrr!), 6/16/03 St. Paul, 6/27/06 St. Paul
Interesting soundbite. Though It would be more interesting if it had any basis in reality.