Shroud of Turin.. Jesus or just some guy?

BridgeBitch
BridgeBitch Posts: 87
edited December 2006 in A Moving Train
The Shroud of Turin is a burial cloth made from linen, 4.37m long and 1.11m wide that bears the image of a crucified man. The image on the cloth is a double image of the front and back of a man with wounds to the face, left wrist, feet and right side of the chest. Many believe the image to be that of Jesus of Nazareth. However debate about whether the Shroud is that of Jesus of Nazareth or merely a medieval forgery has raged over the years. It is the single most studied artifact in history and to this date no clear conclusion has been reached on its authenticity.

If the Shroud was dated to the exact time of Christ's cruxifiction, how do we know it is really his image. Many people were cruxified in the same way?

What impact would it have on religion if it was proven to be the image of Christ?

If it is a forgery who created the cloth and why?
"Man cannot discover new oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore."

10/21/06 & 10/22/06 (Bridge Shows)
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Comments

  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    I don't know, but if you get a piece of sheet-metal with anything that can be perceived as something holy, you can sell it on e-bay for a lot of money.

    http://www.send2press.com/newswire/2006-03-0309-004.shtml
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Mookie Baylock
    Mookie Baylock Posts: 90
    BridgeBitch wrote:
    The Shroud of Turin is a burial cloth made from linen, 4.37m long and 1.11m wide that bears the image of a crucified man. The image on the cloth is a double image of the front and back of a man with wounds to the face, left wrist, feet and right side of the chest. Many believe the image to be that of Jesus of Nazareth. However debate about whether the Shroud is that of Jesus of Nazareth or merely a medieval forgery has raged over the years. It is the single most studied artifact in history and to this date no clear conclusion has been reached on its authenticity.

    If the Shroud was dated to the exact time of Christ's cruxifiction, how do we know it is really his image. Many people were cruxified in the same way?

    What impact would it have on religion if it was proven to be the image of Christ?

    If it is a forgery who created the cloth and why?

    I'm pretty sure it was proved as a fake years ago.
    "Science has proof without certainty... Religion has certainty without proof"
    -Ashley Montagu
  • BridgeBitch
    BridgeBitch Posts: 87
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I don't know, but if you get a piece of sheet-metal with anything that can be perceived as something holy, you can sell it on e-bay for a lot of money.

    http://www.send2press.com/newswire/2006-03-0309-004.shtml

    hmmm? I don't see Jesus, but it does kind of look like one of the demons from this computer game I used to play years ago... What does that say about my subconcious?
    "Man cannot discover new oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore."

    10/21/06 & 10/22/06 (Bridge Shows)
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    BridgeBitch wrote:
    If the Shroud was dated to the exact time of Christ's cruxifiction, how do we know it is really his image. Many people were cruxified in the same way?

    What impact would it have on religion if it was proven to be the image of Christ?

    If it is a forgery who created the cloth and why?
    Even if it were the shroud that wrapped Jesus who cares. I'm not going to pray to a shroud or think the shroud is divine in any way. I think it's well documented that Jesus was a factual person and was crucified so I don't think the shroud adds anything. If it's a fake who cares. The shroud is inconsequential.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    BridgeBitch wrote:
    hmmm? I don't see Jesus, but it does kind of look like one of the demons from this computer game I used to play years ago... What does that say about my subconcious?

    It just means that since you played that game a lot the images of the game are burned into your brain. It's going to reflect during times like this.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • he still stands
    he still stands Posts: 2,835
    yes
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • BridgeBitch
    BridgeBitch Posts: 87
    Mookie Baylock wrote:
    I'm pretty sure it was proved as a fake years ago.


    No, they did Carbon 14 dating in 1988 that proved it was from the medival period which some took to mean that it could not be the image of Jesus. But then in 2005 they redid the dating and found it to be in error.

    One hypothesis was that a serious fire in 1532 that nearly destroyed the Shroud had somehow changed the measurement age of the cloth. Another theory was that a bioplastic-polymer growing on the cloth contaminated the sample. But since these ideas were scientifically insupportable. Scientists, who were knowledgeable in radiocarbon dating, science dismissed them

    There was an article in a scientific journal, Thermochimica Acta, which showed that the carbon 14 dating was flawed because the sample was invalid. It turns out that the corner from which the sample was taken for carbon dating had been mended. As a result, the sample included a significant amount of newer material.
    "Man cannot discover new oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore."

    10/21/06 & 10/22/06 (Bridge Shows)
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    BridgeBitch wrote:
    No, they did Carbon 14 dating in 1988 that proved it was from the medival period which some took to mean that it could not be the image of Jesus. But then in 2005 they redid the dating and found it to be in error.

    One hypothesis was that a serious fire in 1532 that nearly destroyed the Shroud had somehow changed the measurement age of the cloth. Another theory was that a bioplastic-polymer growing on the cloth contaminated the sample. But since these ideas were scientifically insupportable. Scientists, who were knowledgeable in radiocarbon dating, science dismissed them

    There was an article in a scientific journal, Thermochimica Acta, which showed that the carbon 14 dating was flawed because the sample was invalid. It turns out that the corner from which the sample was taken for carbon dating had been mended. As a result, the sample included a significant amount of newer material.

    I'm kind of curious why they mended the bloody shroud of a dead man?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • BridgeBitch
    BridgeBitch Posts: 87
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I'm kind of curious why they mended the bloody shroud of a dead man?


    Well, I suppose if you thought it was Jesus' shroud you'd mend it.
    "Man cannot discover new oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore."

    10/21/06 & 10/22/06 (Bridge Shows)
  • enharmonic
    enharmonic Posts: 1,917
    I wonder if the shroud constitutes a false idol per the word of God? even if it is JC's shroud, it is not JC, and it is not God. that people would hold it up in reverence is exactly the kind of thing that big J was talking about...very un-Christianlike.
    new music: http://www.myspace.com/blackbirdsymphonique

    old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
  • sonicreducer
    sonicreducer Posts: 713
    jesus is one of the most badass mofo's of all time,...
    you're a real hooker. im gonna slap you in public.
    ~Ron Burgundy
  • A Surprise Left
    A Surprise Left Posts: 743
    Well considering we have no idea what Jesus looked like the whole thing is ludricious.
    The wind is blowing cold
    Have we lost our way tonight?
    Have we lost our hope to sorrow?

    Feels like were all alone
    Running further from what’s right
    And there are no more heroes to follow

    So what are we becoming?
    Where did we go wrong?
  • harmless_little_f***
    harmless_little_f*** Posts: 8,005
    A Surprise Left wrote:
    Well considering we have no idea what Jesus looked like the whole thing is ludricious.

    Yes we do, he had long flowing gold locks and blue eyes. And he sometimes swung around a gold vessel of incense as he walked.
    'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'

    - the great Sir Leo Harrison
  • Sonja_S
    Sonja_S Vienna Posts: 444
    harmless_little_f*** wrote:
    Yes we do, he had long flowing gold locks and blue eyes. And he sometimes swung around a gold vessel of incense as he walked.

    ...on water of course
    You can tell a man from what he has to say - Neil & Tim Finn
    They love you so badly for sharing their sorrow, so pick up that guitar and go break a heart - Kris Kristofferson
  • harmless_little_f***
    harmless_little_f*** Posts: 8,005
    Sonja_S wrote:
    ...on water of course

    *nod* And did you know, that is why the world is now full of such sweet smelling water? The incense. Not a lot of people know that.
    'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'

    - the great Sir Leo Harrison
  • BridgeBitch
    BridgeBitch Posts: 87
    enharmonic wrote:
    I wonder if the shroud constitutes a false idol per the word of God? even if it is JC's shroud, it is not JC, and it is not God. that people would hold it up in reverence is exactly the kind of thing that big J was talking about...very un-Christianlike.

    Excellent point! Do people actually worship the Shroud though? Well I guess some do... You get people praying to images of the Virgin Mary in a Potato....
    "Man cannot discover new oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore."

    10/21/06 & 10/22/06 (Bridge Shows)
  • Mr.TambourineMan
    Mr.TambourineMan Posts: 8
    surferdude wrote:
    Even if it were the shroud that wrapped Jesus who cares. I'm not going to pray to a shroud or think the shroud is divine in any way. I think it's well documented that Jesus was a factual person and was crucified so I don't think the shroud adds anything. If it's a fake who cares. The shroud is inconsequential.


    Are there really actual records or documented evidence that say a man named Jesus Christ was crucified or even lived for that matter? (besides scriptures of course)
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Mr.TambourineMan wrote:
    Are there really actual records or documented evidence that say a man named Jesus Christ was crucified or even lived for that matter? (besides scriptures of course)

    Nope, Appolonius of Tyana, now that's a different story.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • kenny olav
    kenny olav Posts: 3,319
    well, im not a Christian but i do find it interesting that the image on the shroud looks like the negative image of man - it only looks like a man when you look at the photographic negative of it, which suggests that it was burned on to the shroud. i think there are theories on how this could have happened but ive forgotten them. i think the Christian belief is that the energy of Jesus burned it, or something like that.
  • Inside Jam
    Inside Jam Posts: 5
    Well there is also Veronica's Veil which is said to bear the image of his face.
    This tells the story if no one knows.
    http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping57.htm

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