all it takes for something to exist is...

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Interesting how thoughts can be so contagious. I would have loved to witness the very first human become sentient... It probably would have been both incredible and hilarious at the same time. The smile on his face and look in his eyes after a few minutes of thinking what the faa?...would be priceless...

Sentience refers to possession of sensory organs, the ability to feel or perceive, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness.

It is common belief that consciousness is the Cartesian Theatre, where consciousness converges at some point in the brain. This is factually inaccurate, consciousness is not a localized phenomena, it's dispersed throughout the brain. It's out of necessity that we are conscious, just as dogs, cats, dolphins, birds and fruitflies are conscious at different levels. It's my belief that humans have always been sentient and through evolution gradually developed a self-awareness. I don't believe there was a first human to experience this phenomena.

Ahnimus wrote:

Sentience refers to possession of sensory organs, the ability to feel or perceive, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness.

It is common belief that consciousness is the Cartesian Theatre, where consciousness converges at some point in the brain. This is factually inaccurate, consciousness is not a localized phenomena, it's dispersed throughout the brain. It's out of necessity that we are conscious, just as dogs, cats, dolphins, birds and fruitflies are conscious at different levels. It's my belief that humans have always been sentient and through evolution gradually developed a self-awareness. I don't believe there was a first human to experience this phenomena.

Well I for one am a big fan of the lightbulb going off theory.

I think of it this way; essentially....the sensory organ called the eyeball in a particular individual looked around one day and said....HOLY SWEET #@!$ SHIT!!! just like is still happening all the time in people today.

Ahnimus wrote:

True, would it be the same as your cat chasing a laser pointer? Essentially they are saying "Holy shit, what's that? Get it!"

Cat's are magnificent to watch in the wild. I made a lure for my cat. I took a piece of black material and stuffed with catnip, tied on a 5 inch black tail and connected that all up to a fishing rod.

I can get some pretty nice casts in my basement. Sometimes I sit on the back deck and cast out into the back yard (especially around dusk), and the cat goes totally nuts. It's pretty hilarious. I used to train him all the time during TV commercials, and whenever. It's therapeutic...it makes you laugh your ass off.

Long story short, I turned my cat into an athlete. He catches flies in midair and eats them, Last summer he brings me this fucking huge pigeon down into the basement and drops it right at my feet. I still can't even understand how heck he fit it in his mouth. It was alive and ok, just stunned as hell, so I carried it back outsize and it flew off a few mins later.

I think more than a few mammals are sentient. Cats and dogs especially.

soulsinging wrote:

it's patting yourself on the back and making the same kind of sweepingly conclusory statements the religious people you love to hate specialize in.

Now your passing judgement on things you can't possibly know. How rude!

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Cat's are magnificent to watch in the wild. I made a lure for my cat. I took a piece of black material and stuffed with catnip, tied on a 5 inch black tail and connected that all up to a fishing rod.

I can get some pretty nice casts in my basement. Sometimes I sit on the back deck and cast out into the back yard (especially around dusk), and the cat goes totally nuts. It's pretty hilarious. I used to train him all the time during TV commercials, and whenever. It's therapeutic...it makes you laugh your ass off.

Long story short, I turned my cat into an athlete. He catches flies in midair and eats them, Last summer he brings me this fucking huge pigeon down into the basement and drops it right at my feet. I still can't even understand how heck he fit it in his mouth. It was alive and ok, just stunned as hell, so I carried it back outsize and it flew off a few mins later.

I think more than a few mammals are sentient. Cats and dogs especially.

Can you post some pics of this ??? I would love to see your cat flying !!

lucylespian wrote:

It is interesting to contemplate self-awareness in animals. I dispute the common belief that only orangutangs are.
My dogs are definitelt self-aware when they are with us. This is not apparent if they are in a boarding kennel for a few weeks, then they lose it, but they get it back again after a short period back home. Mr Plod had a cold once and did this massive sneeze and got snot all over his face. His expression was priceless, clearly saying, "get this shit off my face".
Mind is contagious !!
You can easily see embarrassment in my stallions/colts if they make a mistake or do something silly like fall over on slippery ground, or get chastised too hard for something.
Jari used to run off and hide in his stable if he got embarrassed. Other complex emotions are less evident, though fear and anger are easy to see.
I suggest that self-awareness is essential before you can feel embarrassment.

Awareness of the self is an interesting thing. We could probably talk for hours about two completely different things. First of all, what is self? If it's our entire being from head to toe, body and mind, then of course animals are self-aware, so are computers. A computer software is written to detect input from it's organs, that makes it a sentient being, and self-aware. We just have a more complex software, far superior than modern computers or any other specie for that matter. I have no doubt that some animals have consciousness' more closely resembling ours, but on the other hand, I don't think chickens are all there. Being that consciousness/self-awareness is dispersed throughout the brain, I believe consciousness is just a function of brain processing. Our brains are aware of what our brains are doing, so it only makes sense that that would be consciousness. It just happens that not everything gets heard as loudly, or due to time constraints things are filtered. I don't know, but there is no doubt in my mind that all living organisms down to bacteria are self-aware.

Ahnimus wrote:

Awareness of the self is an interesting thing. We could probably talk for hours about two completely different things. First of all, what is self? If it's our entire being from head to toe, body and mind, then of course animals are self-aware, so are computers. A computer software is written to detect input from it's organs, that makes it a sentient being, and self-aware. We just have a more complex software, far superior than modern computers or any other specie for that matter. I have no doubt that some animals have consciousness' more closely resembling ours, but on the other hand, I don't think chickens are all there. Being that consciousness/self-awareness is dispersed throughout the brain, I believe consciousness is just a function of brain processing. Our brains are aware of what our brains are doing, so it only makes sense that that would be consciousness. It just happens that not everything gets heard as loudly, or due to time constraints things are filtered. I don't know, but there is no doubt in my mind that all living organisms down to bacteria are self-aware.

You are being too reductionist. Taking the discussion back to these silly philosophical questions of what is self, do we really exist etc does not contribute, it just stifles and sidettracks. It's OK to make assumptions like "self" means me, Lucy the Lesbian Lover sitting in front of this computer, which fails a different test of self-awareness, which is this.
I can make a different decision each time in response to any given input stimulus. A computer cannot. If it's algorhithms tell it to do something, that's what it does.
I on the other hand, made a choice to respond to this thread when I saw new posts a few minutes ago. If there are new posts there when I finally submit this, I will make the decision to go for a shower and eat dinner instead, cos I can smell it, and it smells better than you do right now !!

So, if consciousness is dispersed throughout the brain, that implies that it is a multicellular function, so just how does a singel cell organism manage that ?? Further, does that include plants. A tree is certainly more complex than a bacteria, so is it self-aware too ?? I very much doubt it.

You are falling into the trap of thinking that all you know is all there is to know. It's one reason why a formal education would be good for you. At present you stick to finding out what you want to know, and you are not being forced to look at the rest of the picture.
There you go, a bit of condescencion coming right back at you, babe !!

Jeanie wrote:

Facts? Cold hard facts? I think not!

The only reason that no one has disputed cold hard facts is because most of us can't be bothered. The behaviour is offensive and bullying.

And as there isn't a thread safe from being bullied and hijacked, I reckon I'll be doing like practically everybody else around here and finding other more important things to do than reward bad behaviour.

Well isn't it a little ironic, mom. Who's bullying. You state social stereotypes and when I refute them as invalid with empirical data you get offended. Well, I get offended when your prejudice permeates the majority and causes unwarranted suffering.