all it takes for something to exist is...

catefrances wrote:

not that all this isn't fascinating, but how does it relate to the original question?

If a tree falls on your car while your on a flight to the Bahamas, is your car still smashed? Yes.

Believing something is true, makes it true? No.

catefrances wrote:

and you subscribe to derrida's notion fins?

To an extent, but there are flaws in his argument. In showing that it is impossible to make a point because language always differs intrinsically, like an internal dialogue, and defers and denies authoritative, monologic meaning, he sets about deferring his own argument: that's all well and good, but isn't he just finding a way to, er, make his point, that he can't make his point?

catefrances wrote:

that was not my original question. the question was about existence not truthfulness.

Ok, well, still no.

It's a touchy thing I guess. I agree with Angelica and self-manifestation, but I don't believe it's actually manifestation. I think if we set out to achieve something, we can, not always, but most of the time. That doesn't mean I can imagine a hot 20 year old redhead to appear on my bed. If that happened, I would be the only one to see her. Then it's a hallucination.

The way I see it, there is external reality, that which actually does exist. Then there is our perception of reality. Within our perception we could see, hear, smell, taste or feel anything, we can have any kind of experience. Whether or not it correlates with reality is a question of sanity. On the other hand, if I wanted a hot 20 year old redhead, enough trips to the bar and I'd pick one up. If I got passed any shyness or inhibitions I have, then it would be a probability of finding one.

This guy on Youtube says he lost his original green lantern ring. He went looking for it, searched everywhere and just as he was about to give up, he found it, it was buried in the concrete. He calls it self-manifestation. Well, first of all, he was always about to give up, he was about to give up whenever he found it. Until then he wasn't giving up. Secondly, we aren't always aware of everything our brains do, he just found himself wandering down a path he didn't know why, but that's where he found the ring. Something in his brain told him to go that way. I can see these two groups of neurons, screaming out two different thoughts "I'm not going to find it." and "It's over here!". But because this idea "I'm not going to find it." is so strong, pessimism causes this huge collection of neurons to feel this way. While the neurons actually associated with the location of the ring are small. Everything gets stored in neurons as memory, but if it doesn't refire it dies off over time. This idea "I'm not going to find it." applies to any search and can become quite a powerful notion drowning out any conscious awareness of the "It's over here." thought. I read on average it takes people 17 times to hear something and remember it. The strength of thoughts seems to correlate with neurons and synapses. My theory is, when we have a thought, there are a lot more thoughts there we aren't aware of. But awareness doesn't necissarily mean it's any use to the immediate decision, or rather an awareness of a decision made or a large group of neurons firing. This guy managed to retrace his steps without knowing that he'd been there before, but he must have to lose the ring there.

I swear to you if I could illustrate and animate my thoughts on consciousness, the brain and reality, it would make sense. It is a clearer explanation of reality and humans than any other. It surprisingly allows for many of the experiences people claim to have, mystics or what not. It just explains all of it objectively. I just can't find the words for it. I'm sorry.

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catefrances wrote:

...for someone to believe it does. agree/disagree?

in much simpler terms (sorry, not as "educated" and wordy as some)

exist- to have being. to continue to be. live.

being- existence. life. the qualities or constitution of an existent thing. a living thing.

belief- confidence, trust. something believed.

to exist is to be physically seen, touched, tasted, etc.
to believe is to have faith that what you feel is real.

a believer may say something exists that they have not physically seen or touched, but really it is just faith, a feeling in the mind and heart that it exists.

belief/faith is so necessary in humans. it motivates, captivates and makes one dream.

soulsinging wrote:

circular logic rules!

They are simply synonyms.

This is a trick, but if asked to explain what an apple is.

1 : the fleshy usually rounded red, yellow, or green edible pome fruit of a usually cultivated tree (genus Malus) of the rose family; also : an apple tree -- compare CRAB APPLE

Do I then explain what fleshy, usually, rounded, red, yellow, green, edible, pome, fruit, cultivated, tree, malus, rose and family mean?

At some point, it's just english, as children we learn symbols for things which would otherwise not have symbols. An apple is an apple because it's an apple. It's not circular logic, it's just language.

MakingWaves wrote:

My 3 year old niece believes unicorns exist. So do they? No, of course not. Seems like a silly question to ask if someone thinks it exist then does it.

They exist in her experience and in her worldview or else you wouldn't be telling us about them. It would be a non-issue.

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Strange.... this young child you speak of knows of a mythical beast called....Unicorn, yet...somehow I also know of the mythical horned flying creature. How is this possible?

Something that is not real, and does not seem to exist...yet somehow exists...

hmm

It exists as a concept with an associated set of neurons. Removing those neurons will cause the concept to no longer exist.

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Interesting how thoughts can be so contagious. I would have loved to witness the very first human become sentient... It probably would have been both incredible and hilarious at the same time. The smile on his face and look in his eyes after a few minutes of thinking what the faa?...would be priceless...