Consciousness as experience buffer.

angelica · March 2007

Rats of Multa wrote:

well you are welcome dear, very much so .

if only i had some horns....

Wow, and you are so cute, too!

Ahnimus · March 2007

angelica wrote:

For the sake of building a bridge of communication, I am specifically referring to the physical world and what scientists generally agree is physical, in this conversation. In the observable physical world, you believe everything follows reasons?

Sort of.

Rats of Multa · March 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Sort of.

ok, i havent much anything else to add here,.. and i'm out of work in 11min.,.. so i want to wish everyone some luck in trying to resolve these issues.....!!!

i am curious though,.. i havent heard much of anything said relative to "experience" and how consciousness might be a buffer,... so maybe tomorrow.

g'night all.

angelica · March 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Sort of.

You seem ambivalent. Would you care to explain that lack of assuredness?

Maybe if I explain what I'm going for here. farfromglorified is basically an athiest. He and I see the logical reasoning behind the observable physical universe. I believe you agree.

lucylespian · March 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

I just thought of this.

Because the brain gives emergence to consciousness and decisions are made 300ms prior to awareness, it seems that the purpose of consciousness eludes us.

Perhaps what actually occurs is everything that constitutes experience is placed into a buffer(s) and stored as an experience event. The stored events are later referenced like maps of what occurred with a previous experience.

Alternatively the experiences occur instantaneously and autonomously and immediately stored into reciprocal engrams.

300ms sounds like a long time. I am sure a sportsman makes a conscious decision in response to a stimulus, eg an incoming ball, and acts on it in a lot less time than that. Can't see a race driver making it around a lap if everything they do is a third of a second out of synch.

Ahnimus · March 2007

lucylespian wrote:

300ms sounds like a long time. I am sure a sportsman makes a conscious decision in response to a stimulus, eg an incoming ball, and acts on it in a lot less time than that. Can't see a race driver making it around a lap if everything they do is a third of a second out of synch.

I understand the difficulty in visioning this.

You see a ball, and react to it. Both the sight of the ball and reaction to it are experienced consciously 300 - 500 ms after the fact.

Ahnimus · March 2007

angelica wrote:

You seem ambivalent. Would you care to explain that lack of assuredness?

Maybe if I explain what I'm going for here. farfromglorified is basically an athiest. He and I see the logical reasoning behind the observable physical universe. I believe you agree.

Yea, I agree. I just don't put faith in a planned outcome. There is no evidence of a plan, just a deterministic system. A bingo ball machine is deterministic in every sense of the word, but you cannot plan for a certain ball to come out of it. I see reality like a bingo ball machine.

Ahnimus · March 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

I understand the difficulty in visioning this.

You see a ball, and react to it. Both the sight of the ball and reaction to it are experienced consciously 300 - 500 ms after the fact.

Oh, I meant as well. The delay of 300 ms only matters to reaction time if consciousness actually played a role in decision making. Since it does not, it could take 3 weeks and wouldn't make a difference.

lucylespian · March 2007

Rats of Multa wrote:

ok, i havent much anything else to add here,.. and i'm out of work in 11min.,.. so i want to wish everyone some luck in trying to resolve these issues.....!!!

i am curious though,.. i havent heard much of anything said relative to "experience" and how consciousness might be a buffer,... so maybe tomorrow.

g'night all.

I haven't read all posts, but in response to the last sentence, I offer this.
Horses, for example, are entirely associative learners. They do not problem solve, or compare two pieces of information or "think" about situations, so in the context of this question, they do not filter experience through a consciousness. Rather they "react" according to conditioned or instinctive responses. The response to any given stimuli can be modifed or re-inforced.
Hard wired or instrinctive responses are very easily re-inforced, to the point where they cannot be removed. Novel behaviours are less easily installed, and decay more quickly. This is different to thinking, but can mimic it, so is often mistaken for that.
Humans do process information and compare it to previous experience.
Is this what is meant by "consciouness as a buffer" ??

lucylespian · March 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

I understand the difficulty in visioning this.

You see a ball, and react to it. Both the sight of the ball and reaction to it are experienced consciously 300 - 500 ms after the fact.

To this is suggesting that we are constantly lagging behind reality by 1/3 to 1/2 a second. Is this correct ??

Ahnimus · March 2007

lucylespian wrote:

To this is suggesting that we are constantly lagging behind reality by 1/3 to 1/2 a second. Is this correct ??

Yes

lucylespian · March 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Oh, I meant as well. The delay of 300 ms only matters to reaction time if consciousness actually played a role in decision making. Since it does not, it could take 3 weeks and wouldn't make a difference.

I deliberately chose an example of a sportsman to differentiate between reaction and conscious thought. There needs to be conscious thought as to what shot will be played, after interpreting the flight and speed of teh ball. I was thinking of cricket in particular, where there is a lot of stoke options, as well as the no stroke option.
Do I hit in front, behind, left , right, or straight back at the bowler ? The umpire can signal a no-ball as well which allows runs to be scored, but the player can't get out, which allows a lot more risk to be taken. All of this stuff happens in a lot less than 300ms.
I'm not sure how this process and "consciousness" can be separated.

Ahnimus · March 2007

lucylespian wrote:

I deliberately chose an example of a sportsman to differentiate between reaction and conscious thought. There needs to be conscious thought as to what shot will be played, after interpreting the flight and speed of teh ball. I was thinking of cricket in particular, where there is a lot of stoke options, as well as the no stroke option.
Do I hit in front, behind, left , right, or straight back at the bowler ? The umpire can signal a no-ball as well which allows runs to be scored, but the player can't get out, which allows a lot more risk to be taken. All of this stuff happens in a lot less than 300ms.
I'm not sure how this process and "consciousness" can be separated.

Because deciding which play to make is not a conscious decision. It relys on experience and knowledge to make the decision, which is stored in memory in the brain. There is no evidence that the consciousness is required. Most people, especially trained pros with a ball flying at them at 100 mph, don't even think, they just react, or so it seems. Because it's all happening sub-consciously or beneath the consciousness. Most of what people speak is nearly instant, they don't take time to consciously think about it, it just rolls out of their mouths. Riding a bike, driving, etc.. all actions where decisions are made independent of conscious awareness.

lucylespian · March 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Yes

How can this be measured, if all our perceptions are out by the same degree ? This sounds a bit like being aware of The Matrix, while caught inside it. To see it really, you need to step outside of it. So, to measure the gap, you would need to "catch up", which according to your proposal, can't be done.
300 nanoseconds I could get, but 300ms is a long time. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it is not correct, as I don't have specific knowledge or training in this area, but I find the suggestion that our sensory perceptions are that far out of synch with physical reality a bit challenging, and am seeking more information, rather than just accepting it at face value.
I am aware that our brains can "plan ahead" when co-ordinating physical movements to account for the time it takes for nerve impulses to travel from brain to limbs, and that a lot of "reactions" occur at spinal cord level to reduce the information travel time, bit I was specifically trying to think of an example which involved conscious thought.

Ahnimus · March 2007

lucylespian wrote:

How can this be measured, if all our perceptions are out by the same degree ? This sounds a bit like being aware of The Matrix, while caught inside it. To see it really, you need to step outside of it. So, to measure the gap, you would need to "catch up", which according to your proposal, can't be done.
300 nanoseconds I could get, but 300ms is a long time. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it is not correct, as I don't have specific knowledge or training in this area, but I find the suggestion that our sensory perceptions are that far out of synch with physical reality a bit challenging, and am seeking more information, rather than just accepting it at face value.
I am aware that our brains can "plan ahead" when co-ordinating physical movements to account for the time it takes for nerve impulses to travel from brain to limbs, and that a lot of "reactions" occur at spinal cord level to reduce the information travel time, bit I was specifically trying to think of an example which involved conscious thought.

Get a pitching machine to hurl balls at random time intervals and random trajectories at you. Configure the ball speed so you have 300 ms to react to it. You can not. Your reaction time is not even that good. It takes time for everything to be processed, the visual system, calculating best move and initiating action potentials. The 300 ms only refers to action potentials, it doesn't even take into consideration the rest of the delays.

angelica · March 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Yea, I agree. I just don't put faith in a planned outcome. There is no evidence of a plan, just a deterministic system. A bingo ball machine is deterministic in every sense of the word, but you cannot plan for a certain ball to come out of it. I see reality like a bingo ball machine.

I understand what you are saying. All I was looking for is that you understand there are reasons behind everything.

You agree, also, that people often see what their brain wiring tells them is real, and they overlook what is real, right? For example, people don't realize how much of what they do has been determined. People believe what they've been taught. Are you with me so far?

angelica · March 2007

In driver training, I was taught that it takes 3/4 of a second to process something happening, for example the car braking ahead of you, and that it takes 3/4 of a second to respond to that happenstance. Therefore we are taught to keep a few seconds of space around the vehicle to give that time to respond appropriately and defensively.

lucylespian · March 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Because deciding which play to make is not a conscious decision. It relys on experience and knowledge to make the decision, which is stored in memory in the brain. There is no evidence that the consciousness is required. Most people, especially trained pros with a ball flying at them at 100 mph, don't even think, they just react, or so it seems. Because it's all happening sub-consciously or beneath the consciousness. Most of what people speak is nearly instant, they don't take time to consciously think about it, it just rolls out of their mouths. Riding a bike, driving, etc.. all actions where decisions are made independent of conscious awareness.

Mmmmn, I was pondering that myself. Does that sportsman think, or just react ?? I was looking for a complex response rather than a simple one.

I just had another thought which may interest you.
HAve you ever had a "zen" moment while playing sport ?? I have experienced this twice in my life, once while surfing, another time while playing field hockey. Time slows down, and while I was moving extremely fast, everyting seemed slow to me and I had allteh time in teh world to make complex decisions and act on them. I think this is the "zen"state, which zen warriors would try to deliberately invoke. I think it is also what gives ridse to teh old surfing expression, "time expands in the tube".
Maybe in those moments I actually "caught up" ??

Ahnimus · March 2007

angelica wrote:

I understand what you are saying. All I was looking for is that you understand there are reasons behind everything.

You agree, also, that people often see what their brain wiring tells them is real, and they overlook what is real, right? For example, people don't realize how much of what they do has been determined. People believe what they've been taught. Are you with me so far?

Yes

lucylespian · March 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Get a pitching machine to hurl balls at random time intervals and random trajectories at you. Configure the ball speed so you have 300 ms to react to it. You can not. Your reaction time is not even that good. It takes time for everything to be processed, the visual system, calculating best move and initiating action potentials. The 300 ms only refers to action potentials, it doesn't even take into consideration the rest of the delays.

Can you clarify what you mean by "300ms only refers to the action potentials" ?? I am familiar with a 300ms refractory period between possible action potentials in cardiac tissue which can be shortened a little by adrenaline. It takes a lot less time for action potentials to travel in nerve cells. The action potential is delibertely slowed down in caridac tissue to allow correct co-ordination of contraction, so looking at teh time elapsed there is not relevant to this discussion. The pysical distances along the cranila nerves and wihtin the brain are quite short.
I am familiar with the concept of training complex movements and storing them in the cerebellum. I don't have a pitching machine, but I'll do some math on the speed of a cricket ball. Going out and hitting some balls at lunch tiem would be more fun though, or according to you, being hit by some balls !! LOL!!!!!

Consciousness as experience buffer.

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