Before you learned to talk, how did you think?

24

Comments

  • Rats of Multa
    Rats of Multa Posts: 250
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    I think if you are musically inclined it makes a big difference.


    how so?

    [i mean: what is the correlation between music and memory (learning, knowing) that you perceive?]
    we don’t know just where our bones will rest,
    to dust i guess,
    forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    Rats of Multa wrote:
    how so?

    [i mean: what is the correlation between music and memory (learning, knowing) that you perceive?]

    For me I think, I know it's a bit of a stretch, but I am very good at discerning sequences and patterns and I have a perfect sense of pitch. These what I consider or classify under "natural gifts" or" god given" talents of which everyone has in one form or another. I'm thinking we probably associate with the rhythm or tonality of language even in the womb. It's a hypothesis, hard to explain, but if you take the words out of a sentence or letters out of a word and just pronounce the syllables and tones you can still discern a fair amount of what's being said. Also if the words or phrases are repeated and from the same person (mother)....

    I'm still not 100% about my experience. I may have convinced myself in a dream sometime along the way. :D
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • justam
    justam Posts: 21,415
    Ahnimus wrote:
    A question for everyone.

    Does anyone remember life before language?

    What did your thoughts consist of?

    When you think now, what language is it?

    In pictures. :)
    &&&&&&&&&&&&&&
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    For me I think, I know it's a bit of a stretch, but I am very good at discerning sequences and patterns and I have a perfect sense of pitch. These what I consider or classify under "natural gifts" or" god given" talents of which everyone has in one form or another. I'm thinking we probably associate with the rhythm or tonality of language even in the womb. It's a hypothesis, hard to explain, but if you take the words out of a sentence or letters out of a word and just pronounce the syllables and tones you can still discern a fair amount of what's being said. Also if the words or phrases are repeated and from the same person (mother)....

    I'm still not 100% about my experience. I may have convinced myself in a dream sometime along the way. :D

    The prenatal environment is the stage of much learning. It's taken somewhat exagerated though. For example the Mozart effect, playing Mozart for a child in the whom was supposed to make them more intelligent. In-fact it does not, the original studies were performed on adults, and it was assumed to have the same effect on children. However, the child's brain is still developing, while the stimulus is good and likely relates to speed of development, the brain region music correlates with, Wernicke's area is separate than language, Broca's area. Various stimuli will have effects on different brain regions, I'd be skeptical of making a connection between music and memory. Although, it's possible that repeatedly hearing the same music, seeing the same pictures or what-not is responsible for heightened memory. My long term memory is also good, but names and dates are a problem for me. I'm more likely to remember images, I can remember a license plate when I was a child, I can see it clearly. I have all of my personal numbers (SIN, Bank #, etc..) memorized but I can't always say them or write them, I just type them in 2 seconds flat without conscious thought. I am not musically inclined, but I was born in the 80's, so that's probably why.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    Ahnimus wrote:
    The prenatal environment is the stage of much learning. It's taken somewhat exagerated though. For example the Mozart effect, playing Mozart for a child in the whom was supposed to make them more intelligent. In-fact it does not, the original studies were performed on adults, and it was assumed to have the same effect on children. However, the child's brain is still developing, while the stimulus is good and likely relates to speed of development, the brain region music correlates with, Wernicke's area is separate than language, Broca's area. Various stimuli will have effects on different brain regions, I'd be skeptical of making a connection between music and memory. Although, it's possible that repeatedly hearing the same music, seeing the same pictures or what-not is responsible for heightened memory. My long term memory is also good, but names and dates are a problem for me. I'm more likely to remember images, I can remember a license plate when I was a child, I can see it clearly. I have all of my personal numbers (SIN, Bank #, etc..) memorized but I can't always say them or write them, I just type them in 2 seconds flat without conscious thought. I am not musically inclined, but I was born in the 80's, so that's probably why.

    I never fully subscribed to that philosophy on classical music either. I think it could provide for a greater sense of development in the imagination or curiosity areas of the brain, due to the variety of instruments used, and the delivery.

    It probably can instill a greater sense of well being if tracks are chosen for a quiet soothing melodic effect, but it I don't think classical music goes so far as to develop any higher analytical skills

    .
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • Rats of Multa
    Rats of Multa Posts: 250
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    I never fully subscribed to that philosophy on classical music either. I think it could provide for a greater sense of development in the imagination or curiosity areas of the brain, due to the variety of instruments used, and the delivery.

    It probably can instill a greater sense of well being if tracks are chosen for a quiet soothing melodic effect, but it I don't think classical music goes so far as to develop any higher analytical skills

    .


    yeah im a bit skeptical about this theory too, which is why i was curious about your comments. it is interesting to ponder if, and to what degree, reading has any effects upon child-development. seems repeatedly hearing the many common sounds of language could easily assist in the transition to applying such sounds with meanings and inferring comprehension likewise....?
    we don’t know just where our bones will rest,
    to dust i guess,
    forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Rats of Multa wrote:
    yeah im a bit skeptical about this theory too, which is why i was curious about your comments. it is interesting to ponder if, and to what degree, reading has any effects upon child-development. seems repeatedly hearing the many common sounds of language could easily assist in the transition to applying such sounds with meanings and inferring comprehension likewise....?

    I think it all goes back to synapto/neuro-genesis.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • keeponrockin
    keeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    I love threads like this. I'll be thinking about this for a while, and will come back when I have an opinion!
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    A question for everyone.

    Does anyone remember life before language?

    What did your thoughts consist of?

    When you think now, what language is it?

    no, i dont remember life before language. my earliest memories are when i was 3/4 years old.

    have no idea cause i cant remember pre-language.

    now, i think in colloquial australian english.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • LikeAnOcean
    LikeAnOcean Posts: 7,718
    I'm pretty sure you can think to yourself without hearing voices in your head. I understand what this thread is getting at, but you have to also understand, words are just verbal communication. You can look at a tree, know its a tree without having to say "thats a tree" in your head.
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    LikeAnOcean wrote:
    I'm pretty sure you can think to yourself without hearing voices in your head. I understand what this thread is getting at, but you have to also understand, words are just verbal communication. You can look at a tree, know its a tree without having to say "thats a tree" in your head.

    oh no im always talking. in fact i'd not be surprised if i came out of the womb talking. :D my youngest daughter is like that too. hell i even talk in my sleep.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • LikeAnOcean
    LikeAnOcean Posts: 7,718
    catefrances wrote:
    oh no im always talking. in fact i'd not be surprised if i came out of the womb talking. :D my youngest daughter is like that too. hell i even talk in my sleep.
    I think we only talk in our heads to re-affirm things.. I don't think we are using language when we are thinking. Atleast, I don't. Maybe I'm different though. Sure I talk in my head, but only to establish to myself what I have already thought...

    speaking of which, does anyone talk to themselves? I do! :D
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    LikeAnOcean wrote:
    I think we only talk in our heads to re-affirm things.. I don't think we are using language when we are thinking. Atleast, I don't. Maybe I'm different though. Sure I talk in my head, but only to establish to myself what I have already thought...

    speaking of which, does anyone talk to themselves? I do! :D

    yes i talk to myself.
    and i talk inside my head when i am 'thinking'. when i am writing it's a constant conversation in there. :)
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Rats of Multa
    Rats of Multa Posts: 250
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I think it all goes back to synapto/neuro-genesis.


    so your thinking is that intelligence is a product of one's having a greater or lesser speeds of internal electricity,...?
    we don’t know just where our bones will rest,
    to dust i guess,
    forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Rats of Multa wrote:
    so your thinking is that intelligence is a product of one's having a greater or lesser speeds of internal electricity,...?

    Not exactly, it's more to do with the strength of concepts, like critical thought, logic, and so on. Logic is all about true/false statements, to hear a statement and think "Why is that true?" "Is it necissarily true?" etc.. many people don't exercise that thought, and don't think that way regularily, but I would definitely consider intelligence a product of thought method.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • tooferz
    tooferz Posts: 135
    LikeAnOcean wrote:
    I think we only talk in our heads to re-affirm things.. I don't think we are using language when we are thinking. Atleast, I don't. Maybe I'm different though. Sure I talk in my head, but only to establish to myself what I have already thought...

    speaking of which, does anyone talk to themselves? I do! :D
    i think perhaps we do say the words in our heads...but we are inundated with so much data all the time, we don't consciously realize we actually see/hear the words in our minds. kinda like walking. when you are a baby, every step is a concentrated effort. but after a while...you just go without conscious thought.

    yes i talk to myself. sometimes it's the only way i can force a memory.
  • Rats of Multa
    Rats of Multa Posts: 250
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Not exactly, it's more to do with the strength of concepts, like critical thought, logic, and so on. Logic is all about true/false statements, to hear a statement and think "Why is that true?" "Is it necissarily true?" etc.. many people don't exercise that thought, and don't think that way regularily, but I would definitely consider intelligence a product of thought method.


    ok, yeah, i agree with that enlarge. so the issue of advancing intelligence is that of education--namely educating youths about the importance of continuing to ask deeper questions once one finds some clarity from the surface of issues,..?

    i think habitually pursuing issues to their core, or "universal-origins", can in fact lead to quicker nerve-synapse response-times. i'm interested in if this can be a dangerous, somewhat addictive process though--where one's ingrained thought-process is more reflex than discovery. my inclination is that this is more rewarding than troublesome, since more often than not any ingrained reactive thought is the valuable product of a distinctive stimulus.

    is that at all sensical to you?
    we don’t know just where our bones will rest,
    to dust i guess,
    forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    Great clip form my favorite movie 'Waking Life' about language and it's inadequacies. This has bugged my so much throughout my life...that I'm communicating an emotion or thought and it's just assumed that someone understands because they say so. But how can they really understand? What if the same words hold a completely different experience or memory for them altogether?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6Ee9mW9IG8

    Also, I have a memory of when I was a baby and I was screaming my head off as my grandmother was rocking me in her den. I remember so vividly screaming because I couldn't express to my grandmother that I wanted to be out in the sunlight and it was kinda dark in the den. I remember how extremely frustrated I felt not being able to communicate this with her. It was such a helpless feeling!! And after a few minutes my uncle walks in the door, picks me up and carries me to the front porch. I remember distinctly the light flooding in the room around his silhouette as the door opened and he came in. I stopped crying immediately and that's all I can recall. Almost everytime I tell this story to people they act like it's impossible to remember something form so far back but my grandmother remembered exactly when I was talking about and could retell the exact same chain of events.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Great clip form my favorite movie 'Waking Life' about language and it's inadequacies. This has bugged my so much throughout my life...that I'm communicating an emotion or thought and it's just assumed that someone understands because they say so. But how can they really understand? What if the same words hold a completely different experience or memory for them altogether?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6Ee9mW9IG8

    Also, I have a memory of when I was a baby and I was screaming my head off as my grandmother was rocking me in her den. I remember so vividly screaming because I couldn't express to my grandmother that I wanted to be out in the sunlight and it was kinda dark in the den. I remember how extremely frustrated I felt not being able to communicate this with her. It was such a helpless feeling!! And after a few minutes my uncle walks in the door, picks me up and carries me to the front porch. I remember distinctly the light flooding in the room around his silhouette as the door opened and he came in. I stopped crying immediately and that's all I can recall. Almost everytime I tell this story to people they act like it's impossible to remember something form so far back but my grandmother remembered exactly when I was talking about and could retell the exact same chain of events.
    Wow. That's awesome to hear that Abook!
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Rats of Multa wrote:
    ok, yeah, i agree with that enlarge. so the issue of advancing intelligence is that of education--namely educating youths about the importance of continuing to ask deeper questions once one finds some clarity from the surface of issues,..?

    i think habitually pursuing issues to their core, or "universal-origins", can in fact lead to quicker nerve-synapse response-times. i'm interested in if this can be a dangerous, somewhat addictive process though--where one's ingrained thought-process is more reflex than discovery. my inclination is that this is more rewarding than troublesome, since more often than not any ingrained reactive thought is the valuable product of a distinctive stimulus.

    is that at all sensical to you?

    It seems like it makes sense. I gotta admit though, Baraka PMd me a link to some in-depth study material on quantum mechanics and my brain is like mush right now. I didn't even get past the math part of it, I had a problem with trigonomitry the last time I attempted it, when my bro lent me his "Physics: For Scientists and Engineers" I couldn't read, because of the math.

    Anyway, by tomorrow I should be able to interpret what you said ;)
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire

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