Before you learned to talk, how did you think?

Ahnimus

A question for everyone.

Does anyone remember life before language?

What did your thoughts consist of?

When you think now, what language is it?

fanch75

Ahnimus wrote:

A question for everyone.

Does anyone remember life before language?

What did your thoughts consist of?

When you think now, what language is it?

I've thought of this same question in another way....

Obviously pets (well all animals for that matter) have a thought process. This is shown by how they react to verbal commands, hand gestures, their day to day actions. How do they process this in their mind without a languance in their head to reason it all out?

The answer must be some kind of instinct, similar to how we breath, digest, etc without willing ourselves to do so. However, it's hard to bridge that with a dog playing with a ball, etc.

Ahnimus

fanch75 wrote:

I've thought of this same question in another way....

Obviously pets (well all animals for that matter) have a thought process. This is shown by how they react to verbal commands, hand gestures, their day to day actions. How do they process this in their mind without a languance in their head to reason it all out?

The answer must be some kind of instinct, similar to how we breath, digest, etc without willing ourselves to do so. However, it's hard to bridge that with a dog playing with a ball, etc.

I agree. Although I do have abstract thoughts that aren't clearly represented by language. It seems difficult to formulate words to always describe them. In many of these cases, I'm not entirely certain what the thoughts are, eventually they come through in language and then they are clear.

For the most part, they say people think in language. I certainly do. Some theorize that without language, we wouldn't be consciously aware of our thoughts.

fanch75

Ahnimus wrote:

For the most part, they say people think in language. I certainly do. Some theorize that without language, we wouldn't be consciously aware of our thoughts.

Without language, I don't know how we possibly could be aware of our thoughts.

Back to the dog example...a dog obviously is aware that chasing after a stick is fun, and it does experience emotion (happiness) and expresses it by wagging its tail. However, how does the dog know it's having fun without some kind of language to reason it out?

Without internal language to rationalize, how does it learn and know to bark and be playful when it wants outside?

Etc....

It seems silly but it's pretty perplexing when you think about it.....

hippiemom

I only have one memory from before I could talk. I fell down a huge flight of stairs, and my memory is visual and emotional ... everything going all topsy-turvy as I went down and my grandmother freaking out, being scared and confused, blood all over the place ... I remember people yelling, but not anything that anyone said.

Ahnimus

hippiemom wrote:

I only have one memory from before I could talk. I fell down a huge flight of stairs, and my memory is visual and emotional ... everything going all topsy-turvy as I went down and my grandmother freaking out, being scared and confused, blood all over the place ... I remember people yelling, but not anything that anyone said.

Must have felt like a state of total confusion.

hippiemom

Ahnimus wrote:

Must have felt like a state of total confusion.

That's exactly how I remember it.

angelica

hippiemom wrote:

I only have one memory from before I could talk. I fell down a huge flight of stairs, and my memory is visual and emotional ... everything going all topsy-turvy as I went down and my grandmother freaking out, being scared and confused, blood all over the place ... I remember people yelling, but not anything that anyone said.

Wow, that's really interesting that you remember that. It's cool hearing a pre-verbal perspective.

soulsinging

i thought in binary. im just a sophisticated computer.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

I somehow remember where and when I was first introduced to my older brother coming home from the hospital. Don't ask me how that is even possible, but I remember my mother holding me, standing outside my brothers room in the doorway, and my brother said "mommy who's that?" My mom said "this is your new little brother." My mother has confirmed and remembers this is where the introduction did take place, but it all seems so impossible and unlikely.

Could the moment have been burned into my subconscious until language kicked in for me to form an understanding of it? I don't know how to make any sense of it.

Ahnimus

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

I somehow remember where and when I was first introduced to my older brother coming home from the hospital. Don't ask me how that is even possible, but I remember my mother holding me, standing outside my brothers room in the doorway, and my brother said "mommy who's that?" My mom said "this is your new little brother." My mother has confirmed and remembers this is where the introduction did take place, but it all seems so impossible and unlikely.

Could the moment have been burned into my subconscious until language kicked in for me to form an understanding of it? I don't know how to make any sense of it.

That sounds like a reasonable explanation.

A lot of it may be filled-in-blanks as well. I lost pretty much all of my memory from the first 7 - 10 years of my life. Yet, lately I seem to remember things exactly as they've been told to me by family. I believe these memories are just manifestations.

Restless Soul

I think without language you'd just remember impressions of things and its impact on you. You think more in basics, such as good and bad, wrong and right, rather than words.

I think only someone who was brought up by wolves or something with no human interaction will be able to answer this question.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Ahnimus wrote:

That sounds like a reasonable explanation.

A lot of it may be filled-in-blanks as well. I lost pretty much all of my memory from the first 7 - 10 years of my life. Yet, lately I seem to remember things exactly as they've been told to me by family. I believe these memories are just manifestations.

Well they do claim to be able to draw out repressed memories via hypnosis. I just wonder how does the brain know what to do with verbal information without the structure of language to effectively process it? Perhaps it's similar to how we communicate with dogs (animals). Dogs go by the tonal sounds of our words and form understanding. If you call your dog Sascha for example. If you say Mashca, Tascha etc... in the same manner they dog responds immediately (mine does anyways ).

Perhaps our brains (as they are essentially sponges at that early age) can retain sequences of sounds like an vague echo which we later can apply language to and understand.

tooferz

as a baby, we pretty much go on instinct. eat, poop, sleep, comfort n we cry when those goals aren't met. but most parents do the baby talk and babies begin to learn voice inflection. then they begin to understand words because of repetition.

i just came home from seeing my grandsons and spent the majority of the time saying "nose...yup that's gramma's nose. this is bryson's nose. can you say nose?" and "aww baby brother. can you say zane? zane?". you can see when a word finally makes sense to them and they associate that sound with this object.

it's not just voice either. have you seen the programs that teach very young babies sign language? they learn the hand gestures are associated with certain objects...and they still learn their home language too. you can always tell a child who's parents talked to them and read to them...regardless of language.

i guess the same would apply to animals..tho we speak a different language. we learn our animals sounds for different moods and actions. and they learn our hand gestures and voice inflection to mean different requests. just as you can with a child, you can tell if an animal has been socialized.

so i guess what i'm saying is i don't think we have much cognitive thought before we start to learn language and before that it's instinct. and it's thru repetition with the senses that brings about language.

just a side note....isn't it just freaking awesome how much a child learns in the first 18 months of life? things that if we lose that ability as an adult take MUCH longer to relearn?

MakingWaves

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

I somehow remember where and when I was first introduced to my older brother coming home from the hospital. Don't ask me how that is even possible, but I remember my mother holding me, standing outside my brothers room in the doorway, and my brother said "mommy who's that?" My mom said "this is your new little brother." My mother has confirmed and remembers this is where the introduction did take place, but it all seems so impossible and unlikely.

Could the moment have been burned into my subconscious until language kicked in for me to form an understanding of it? I don't know how to make any sense of it.

I don't mean to sound like an asshole but I don't think it is possible you remember that. Maybe you have been told the story and you think you remember it. Please convince me otherwise because I think it would be cool that someone could remember something from such a young age.

Ahnimus

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Well they do claim to be able to draw out repressed memories via hypnosis. I just wonder how does the brain know what to do with verbal information without the structure of language to effectively process it? Perhaps it's similar to how we communicate with dogs (animals). Dogs go by the tonal sounds of our words and form understanding. If you call your dog Sascha for example. If you say Mashca, Tascha etc... in the same manner they dog responds immediately (mine does anyways ).

Perhaps our brains (as they are essentially sponges at that early age) can retain sequences of sounds like an vague echo which we later can apply language to and understand.

Actually regression therapy more often implants memories than it does bring out old memories. The subjects realize after discontinuing therapy that the memories were in-fact false. Thousands of people were convicted of child abuse following the big craze of recovered memory therapy in the 1980's, since then most have been released. Currently the insurance companies charge a lot more for psychiatrists performing recovery therapy for this reason and few therapists are in practice today.

The Royal College of Psychiatrists summarized their position as:

"Psychiatrists are advised to avoid engaging in any "memory recovery techniques" which are based upon the expectation of past sexual abuse of which the patient has no memory. Such...techniques may include drug-mediated interviews ["truth serum"], hypnosis, regression therapies, guided imagery, "body memories," literal dream interpretation, and journaling. There is no evidence that the use of consciousness-altering techniques, such as drug-mediated interviews or hypnosis, can reveal or accurately elaborate factual information about any past experiences, including sexual abuse."

Ahnimus

tooferz wrote:

just a side note....isn't it just freaking awesome how much a child learns in the first 18 months of life? things that if we lose that ability as an adult take MUCH longer to relearn?

It's fascinating. Equally as fascinating is the foundation we adults take for granted. When we speak and these words stream out of our mouths, or when we think, perform routine tasks. All of these things are based on a massive foundation of learned behavior.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Ahnimus wrote:

Actually regression therapy more often implants memories than it does bring out old memories. The subjects realize after discontinuing therapy that the memories were in-fact false. Thousands of people were convicted of child abuse following the big craze of recovered memory therapy in the 1980's, since then most have been released. Currently the insurance companies charge a lot more for psychiatrists performing recovery therapy for this reason and few therapists are in practice today.

The Royal College of Psychiatrists summarized their position as:

"Psychiatrists are advised to avoid engaging in any "memory recovery techniques" which are based upon the expectation of past sexual abuse of which the patient has no memory. Such...techniques may include drug-mediated interviews ["truth serum"], hypnosis, regression therapies, guided imagery, "body memories," literal dream interpretation, and journaling. There is no evidence that the use of consciousness-altering techniques, such as drug-mediated interviews or hypnosis, can reveal or accurately elaborate factual information about any past experiences, including sexual abuse."

Whoa...that's cool. I did not know that. I can definitely see how it could be possible to implant information deeply in such a suggestive open state of mind.

I'm glad I read that.

Rats of Multa

Ahnimus wrote:

It's fascinating. Equally as fascinating is the foundation we adults take for granted. When we speak and these words stream out of our mouths, or when we think, perform routine tasks. All of these things are based on a massive foundation of learned behavior.

this is fascinating, thanks for the thread.

however, i dont think all adults take all such things for granted. some folks tend to live on foundations of learning-behavior, as opposed to learned-behavior.

lazy yank

hey eddie ,
why dont you copy some of this shit down and write another song ,
cause you lost the fire after your second million,covering a WHO song
you have lost it

RolandTD20Kdrummer

I would like to add to what I posted earlier:

"Perhaps our brains (as they are essentially sponges at that early age) can retain sequences of sounds like an vague echo which we later can apply language to and understand."

This could be reality for some people. Some have photographic memories. Maybe some can apply it to aural (sound pattern) recollection rather than visual.

I suggest it's definitely possible to remember, and understand later on what was said around you before you knew how to speak.

My long term memory is extremely acute. I can look at all my grade school pictures and name everyone in my classes by first and last name, also every teacher I've ever had, and every subject they taught me back to grade 1. That's how I happen to remember that one aspect of school. I have my visa card with expiry, bank card, social insurance number all memorized. I work on differernt companies networks. For one I keep about 20 users passwords memorized. For another client about a dozen. Phone numbers is another plus.

I don't try or a make a point of remembering. I just seem to remember things that are of notable interest.

I think if you are musically inclined it makes a big difference.

Rats of Multa

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

I think if you are musically inclined it makes a big difference.

how so?

[i mean: what is the correlation between music and memory (learning, knowing) that you perceive?]

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Rats of Multa wrote:

how so?

[i mean: what is the correlation between music and memory (learning, knowing) that you perceive?]

For me I think, I know it's a bit of a stretch, but I am very good at discerning sequences and patterns and I have a perfect sense of pitch. These what I consider or classify under "natural gifts" or" god given" talents of which everyone has in one form or another. I'm thinking we probably associate with the rhythm or tonality of language even in the womb. It's a hypothesis, hard to explain, but if you take the words out of a sentence or letters out of a word and just pronounce the syllables and tones you can still discern a fair amount of what's being said. Also if the words or phrases are repeated and from the same person (mother)....

I'm still not 100% about my experience. I may have convinced myself in a dream sometime along the way.

justam

Ahnimus wrote:

A question for everyone.

Does anyone remember life before language?

What did your thoughts consist of?

When you think now, what language is it?

In pictures.

Ahnimus

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

For me I think, I know it's a bit of a stretch, but I am very good at discerning sequences and patterns and I have a perfect sense of pitch. These what I consider or classify under "natural gifts" or" god given" talents of which everyone has in one form or another. I'm thinking we probably associate with the rhythm or tonality of language even in the womb. It's a hypothesis, hard to explain, but if you take the words out of a sentence or letters out of a word and just pronounce the syllables and tones you can still discern a fair amount of what's being said. Also if the words or phrases are repeated and from the same person (mother)....

I'm still not 100% about my experience. I may have convinced myself in a dream sometime along the way.

The prenatal environment is the stage of much learning. It's taken somewhat exagerated though. For example the Mozart effect, playing Mozart for a child in the whom was supposed to make them more intelligent. In-fact it does not, the original studies were performed on adults, and it was assumed to have the same effect on children. However, the child's brain is still developing, while the stimulus is good and likely relates to speed of development, the brain region music correlates with, Wernicke's area is separate than language, Broca's area. Various stimuli will have effects on different brain regions, I'd be skeptical of making a connection between music and memory. Although, it's possible that repeatedly hearing the same music, seeing the same pictures or what-not is responsible for heightened memory. My long term memory is also good, but names and dates are a problem for me. I'm more likely to remember images, I can remember a license plate when I was a child, I can see it clearly. I have all of my personal numbers (SIN, Bank #, etc..) memorized but I can't always say them or write them, I just type them in 2 seconds flat without conscious thought. I am not musically inclined, but I was born in the 80's, so that's probably why.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Ahnimus wrote:

The prenatal environment is the stage of much learning. It's taken somewhat exagerated though. For example the Mozart effect, playing Mozart for a child in the whom was supposed to make them more intelligent. In-fact it does not, the original studies were performed on adults, and it was assumed to have the same effect on children. However, the child's brain is still developing, while the stimulus is good and likely relates to speed of development, the brain region music correlates with, Wernicke's area is separate than language, Broca's area. Various stimuli will have effects on different brain regions, I'd be skeptical of making a connection between music and memory. Although, it's possible that repeatedly hearing the same music, seeing the same pictures or what-not is responsible for heightened memory. My long term memory is also good, but names and dates are a problem for me. I'm more likely to remember images, I can remember a license plate when I was a child, I can see it clearly. I have all of my personal numbers (SIN, Bank #, etc..) memorized but I can't always say them or write them, I just type them in 2 seconds flat without conscious thought. I am not musically inclined, but I was born in the 80's, so that's probably why.

I never fully subscribed to that philosophy on classical music either. I think it could provide for a greater sense of development in the imagination or curiosity areas of the brain, due to the variety of instruments used, and the delivery.

It probably can instill a greater sense of well being if tracks are chosen for a quiet soothing melodic effect, but it I don't think classical music goes so far as to develop any higher analytical skills

.

Rats of Multa

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

I never fully subscribed to that philosophy on classical music either. I think it could provide for a greater sense of development in the imagination or curiosity areas of the brain, due to the variety of instruments used, and the delivery.

It probably can instill a greater sense of well being if tracks are chosen for a quiet soothing melodic effect, but it I don't think classical music goes so far as to develop any higher analytical skills

.

yeah im a bit skeptical about this theory too, which is why i was curious about your comments. it is interesting to ponder if, and to what degree, reading has any effects upon child-development. seems repeatedly hearing the many common sounds of language could easily assist in the transition to applying such sounds with meanings and inferring comprehension likewise....?

Ahnimus

Rats of Multa wrote:

yeah im a bit skeptical about this theory too, which is why i was curious about your comments. it is interesting to ponder if, and to what degree, reading has any effects upon child-development. seems repeatedly hearing the many common sounds of language could easily assist in the transition to applying such sounds with meanings and inferring comprehension likewise....?

I think it all goes back to synapto/neuro-genesis.

keeponrockin

I love threads like this. I'll be thinking about this for a while, and will come back when I have an opinion!

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

A question for everyone.

Does anyone remember life before language?

What did your thoughts consist of?

When you think now, what language is it?

no, i dont remember life before language. my earliest memories are when i was 3/4 years old.

have no idea cause i cant remember pre-language.

now, i think in colloquial australian english.

LikeAnOcean

I'm pretty sure you can think to yourself without hearing voices in your head. I understand what this thread is getting at, but you have to also understand, words are just verbal communication. You can look at a tree, know its a tree without having to say "thats a tree" in your head.