When Does Science Become Philosophy?

angelica · August 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Angelica,

Here is just one of many reports you may have overlooked on your quest to support your beliefs. ...

Now, if you go back and read all that stuff, not just the parts you pasted, but the entire article and the subsequent papers that referenced those papers that you cited.

It sounds like you forgot my first post in this discussion. Again, if you continue to colour what I say with your own obviously active imagination, rather than assess what I say based on what I actually say, you will continue to see fallacy where it doesn't exist.:

angelica wrote:

I'm with you, surferdude, if you are saying that science, like religion, is yet one other vehicle that humans use to outlet human flaw, resulting in death and destruction on a wide scale, etc. And if that's not what you're saying....then I'll just say it. And just like science saves lives, religion does as well. People of faith live longer, to start, not to mention quality of life, peace of mind, etc. As with all things on this level of earthly existence, both have great positives and depths of ugly darkness.

While you're waxing on about how biased I am, you forgot the context I'm speaking within. I'm well aware of BOTH sides of religion AND science, and speak to that. Are you? It seems not.

Ahnimus wrote:

...and especially read the part that says physicians are not to perscribe spirituality to their patients or even engage in discussions of spirituality with their patients.

Please provide the direct quote. What I saw was this in the conclusions:

"In contrast to prior claims,2 levels of spirituality and religion are relatively high in Australia, and findings on the relationship between religion and health in Australia are similar to those in the US. The potential for both positive and negative effects of spirituality on health, combined with the high levels of engagement with spirituality by the Australian population, suggests that this area is ripe for future sustained research. Moreover, Australian patients want their clinicians to incorporate spirituality into their treatment.4,55 Australian researchers and clinicians could profitably pay more attention to spirituality — a neglected but important aspect of life that may have significant health consequences.

Galaxie2X4 · September 2007

surferdude wrote:

When does science become philosophy?

Much of what goes on in science now is only tested theoretically. It can't be backed by real test data. At this point has it become more a philosophy than a science?

Fields where this is common;
Theoretical Physics,
The Determinism/Free Will Debate,
Environmental Sciences including Climate Change.

Did you just read John Horgan's "The End of Science" or something. My take-theory and data are intertwined just like nature/nurture. Neither can exist w/o the other.

angelica · September 2007

If anyone is interested in what the neuroscientist actually studied, see for yourself.

Dr. Andrew Newberg very clearly reports on what the personal subjective experiences he studied were. The brain states monitored were directly correlated to the subjective experiences had by the participants. The brain states charted are those wherein the individual was SUBJECTIVELY and personally comtemplating a table, or in other cases contemplating God, including experiencing feeling a oneness with the "object of meditation or prayer". (ed: i.e. God/Unitary Being, which is what Dr. Newberg calls it)

For example, this is what Dr. Newberg actually describes:

"When we look at a mystical experience as being a very profound spiritual state, they're usually associated with very powerful emotional responses or very powerful quiescent kind of responses or even some kind of combination of the two. They often are associated with a strong sense of becoming one wth or becoming unified with God or the Universe or some Absolute nature of the world. These are probably the main defining characteristics of profound types of mystical experiences. ... we also look at all types of spiritual experiences on a continuum, where we start with baseline reality...on up to the very powerful kinds of experiences people get after many, many years of meditation or prayer, and where they ultimately do become absorbed into the object of their meditation or prayer."
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9122930135704146433

He talks quite extensively about the mystical experiences of oneness with the universe, that he studied the brain correlates of.

OutOfBreath · September 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Yes, but a philosophy that has brought us nuclear energy, space exploration and an endless trove of other treasures. In contrast to other philosophies, such as Christianity, which has brought us war amongst arguable bouts of pseudo-Altruism.

Been away for awhile, but a few quick remarks here:

First of all science is not all blessings. New discoveries also bring new problems and often even more interesting ways for us to kill eachother as well. I would say that the pros outweighs the cons, but no need to be evangelical about it. Science have given us great opportunities to shape our world, however, precisely that ability enables us to really fuck things up.

Second: Christianity is not a philosophy, it's a religion and concerns itself with belief. Not rational and logical models proposing and exploring a hypothesis, which is what philosophy is. Various strands of theology can be labelled philosophy, but they operate pretty much outside the belief-system in itself. Main difference from "regular philosophy" that they accept an axiom that God exists in some way.

Peace
Dan

angelica · September 2007

OutOfBreath wrote:

Second: Christianity is not a philosophy, it's a religion and concerns itself with belief. Not rational and logical models proposing and exploring a hypothesis, which is what philosophy is. Various strands of theology can be labelled philosophy, but they operate pretty much outside the belief-system in itself. Main difference from "regular philosophy" that they accept an axiom that God exists in some way.

Peace
Dan

I understand what you are saying in that you are differentiating between belief of religion and logical study, which philosophy tends to be associated with. At the same time, Christianity fits these definitions of 'philosophy':

1) a belief (or system of beliefs) accepted as authoritative by some group or school [syn: doctrine]

2) a system of principles for guidance in practical affairs.

3) A system of values by which one lives

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/philosophy

Ahnimus · September 2007

angelica wrote:

Besides your inaccurate assessment when the direct claims are right here for all to read--if due to one's faith, they practice more pristine lifestyle choice, that's a direct relationship to the religion/spirituality and faith. Religion/faith is like a self-help lifestyle. Jesus was like a self-help guru. You may see it as a means of control and of brain-washing--people of faith see it as a set of principles to live by that directly benefits their lives, bringing positive consequences. I never once said it's the act of believing itself that has the effect. That's the work of your bias and imagination. Everything in the universe happens with precision, including the purposes of religion at this time--including that religion and spirituality is foreseen by scientists to be here for a loonnggg while.

I would never assert that belief is enough. Which goes to show how you continue to judge me by your own imagination-version of me, than by what I actually do assert. No wonder I seem so flakey to you--your mind seems to want to paint me that way. Please separate the reality from your personal bias.

Looks like you didn't read it. Oh well. You always have just believed whatever you want to believe. I'm not gonna be able to change that with facts or anything. Anyway, I'm on vacation, I only had a few minutes to check out the news.

angelica · September 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Looks like you didn't read it. Oh well. You always have just believed whatever you want to believe. I'm not gonna be able to change that with facts or anything. Anyway, I'm on vacation, I only had a few minutes to check out the news.

Apparently "being on vacation" doesn't prevent you from posting in other threads....

OutOfBreath · September 2007

angelica wrote:

I understand what you are saying in that you are differentiating between belief of religion and logical study, which philosophy tends to be associated with. At the same time, Christianity fits these definitions of 'philosophy':

1) a belief (or system of beliefs) accepted as authoritative by some group or school [syn: doctrine]

2) a system of principles for guidance in practical affairs.

3) A system of values by which one lives

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/philosophy

I am aware there are "softer" uses of the word philosophy. However, in this debate and on this subject, I find it most relevant to talk about philosophy as a university discipline, not as different lifestyles and beliefs (interesting though they may be).

My point is to show that "philosophy" can be pretty stringent and principled based in axioms as a sort of argumentative math positing logically coherent positions. That is what I think when I hear "philosophy" anyway.

Peace
Dan

angelica · September 2007

OutOfBreath wrote:

I am aware there are "softer" uses of the word philosophy. However, in this debate and on this subject, I find it most relevant to talk about philosophy as a university discipline, not as different lifestyles and beliefs (interesting though they may be).

My point is to show that "philosophy" can be pretty stringent and principled based in axioms as a sort of argumentative math positing logically coherent positions. That is what I think when I hear "philosophy" anyway.

Peace
Dan

Fair enough. I understand what you are saying. Good point about the philosophy in terms of this thread, too--I hadn't tied the two together on this side point.

It's my impression that Ahnimus understands philosophy is very stringent in terms of logical demands, and that he respects that. Also that he would not at all have been using philosophy in that strict sense in regards to Christianity.

When Does Science Become Philosophy?

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