I agree..but the USA has never had a doctine about targeting civilians. Iran does.... There is a moral difference there that the US and Israel have over Iran. There was no good reason for this latest war in lebanon, but it happened, and Iran backed Hezbollah actually used the Lebanon people as sheilds. This is truly sick and shows a vast moral distinction.... The USA foreign policy is not perfect and needs to be changed, but you cannot rightly compare the two regimes.
Based on the terror both regime have inflicted to civillians, yes, you can compare both, absolutly, intentional or not, it wouldn't stand a minute in a legal court.
"yeah i killed him, but it was not intentional" will also make you guilty of a crime.
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
well ... that is your opinion ... saying it is ridiculous doesn't make it so ... you say these organizations have terrorized but yet will not call them terrorists ...
These organizations have terrorized. So has every organization that uses force to override will. Your local police force, at some point, has also terrorized.
However, a terrorist organization is an organization that is founded on principles of terror and hate with hate being their means and terror being their ends. To suggest that the CIA or that your local security force matches that description is to simplify the situation to a level of absurdity.
There are fundamental differences between Al Qaeda and the CIA. There are fundamental differences between Hezbollah and Mossad. That doesn't mean that one is evil and the other good. That would also simplify things to a level of absurdity.
Based on the terror both regime have inflicted to civillians, yes, you can compare both, absolutly, intentional or not, it wouldn't stand a minute in a legal court.
"yeah i killed him, but it was not intentional" will also make you guilty of a crime.
But not murder, thank-you for proving the moral distinction between the two.
repeat one more time, just for you. Iran State, and their government, are not a terrorist organisation, or if you want to stay on that line, you must accuse the USA govt. of being a terrorist state, on the same basis you accuse Iran of being one. Don't make me laugh more please, i've lost all the fun i had posting on this board because of people like you saying "you support or YOU ARE a terrorist", get over it...
Why don't you contain your laughter long enough to explain why Iran is not a terrorist state?
Iran and Hezbollah are one in the same. Hezbollah deliberately aimed and fired thousands of rockets at civillians. On the other hand, the U.S. does not deliberately target civillians. Do you not see the moral difference there?
I agree..but the USA has never had a doctine about targeting civilians. Iran does.... There is a moral difference there that the US and Israel have over Iran. There was no good reason for this latest war in lebanon, but it happened, and Iran backed Hezbollah actually used the Lebanon people as sheilds. This is truly sick and shows a vast moral distinction.... The USA foreign policy is not perfect and needs to be changed, but you cannot rightly compare the two regimes.
of course no one is gonna have a doctrine of targeting civilians but actions speak louder than words - it is an uncomfortable truth for many americans but there is no disputing the impact on civilians american actions have had ...
and as far as hezbollah - this war escalated with the kidnapping of 2 soldiers not the targeting of innocent civilians - it is very clear who was targeting civilians more in this past war ... the use of cluster bombs is the targeting of civilians and this is state sanctioned ...
These organizations have terrorized. So has every organization that uses force to override will. Your local police force, at some point, has also terrorized.
However, a terrorist organization is an organization that is founded on principles of terror and hate with hate being their means and terror being their ends. To suggest that the CIA or that your local security force matches that description is to simplify the situation to a level of absurdity.
There are fundamental differences between Al Qaeda and the CIA. There are fundamental differences between Hezbollah and Mossad. That doesn't mean that one is evil and the other good. That would also simplify things to a level of absurdity.
how could there be fundamental differences when one was born from the other?? ... the only difference is who the target is ... i'm sure no one was complaining about al qaeda when it was doing US bidding in afghanistan ... look at who the biggest arms dealer is in the world and tell me that the US doesn't sponsor terrorism ...
But not murder, thank-you for proving the moral distinction between the two.
yes, murder, there's different degree of murder, and i don't know every international law and their details, but killing civillians is a crime, intentional or not. If it's a time of war, it becomes war crimes, intentional or not. No moral distinction, if you target something you call legitimate and end up killing innocents, yes, it's a crime, a murder.
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
of course no one is gonna have a doctrine of targeting civilians but actions speak louder than words - it is an uncomfortable truth for many americans but there is no disputing the impact on civilians american actions have had ...
and as far as hezbollah - this war escalated with the kidnapping of 2 soldiers not the targeting of innocent civilians - it is very clear who was targeting civilians more in this past war ... the use of cluster bombs is the targeting of civilians and this is state sanctioned ...
Dude, it isn't uncomfortable at ALL..... I know that when the U.S. military goes to war that civillians will be killed. I take solace in knowing that it will be held to a minimum, becuase they are not directly targeted.
But you are so dead wrong in that groups do not have a doctrine of targeting civillains. Hezbollah fired rockets indiscriminately towards civillian populations that had ZERO military targets.... do you get that ZERO. That means they are INTENTIONALLy targeting civillians.
There is a clear difference. Why can you not acknowelge that?
and clinton,nixon and company were not of the bozo breed?
America is not only judged by it's current policy but by it's past as well.
THAN BUSH BOY AND THE PEOPLE THAT SUPPORT HIM...PERIOD!
....none of the lame things past administrations have done compare to Iraq...none...even put together...so please don't compare past administrations to Bush. We did have some respect and even admiration before Bush...not now. Thank you very much.....
Why don't you contain your laughter long enough to explain why Iran is not a terrorist state?
Iran and Hezbollah are one in the same. Hezbollah deliberately aimed and fired thousands of rockets at civillians. On the other hand, the U.S. does not deliberately target civillians. Do you not see the moral difference there?
Iran are not more terrorist than the USA, or Russia, judge everyone on the same standard, there's no moral difference to me between what the USA have done in so many countries around the world over recent history, what Russia did in Chechnya or what Iran/Hezbollah did in Israel. If one is terrorist, then they're all terrorist.
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Dude, it isn't uncomfortable at ALL..... I know that when the U.S. military goes to war that civillians will be killed. I take solace in knowing that it will be held to a minimum, becuase they are not directly targeted.
But you are so dead wrong in that groups do not have a doctrine of targeting civillains. Hezbollah fired rockets indiscriminately towards civillian populations that had ZERO military targets.... do you get that ZERO. That means they are INTENTIONALLy targeting civillians.
There is a clear difference. Why can you not acknowelge that?
Even after "shock and awe" you can still post something like that? even after all those rounds of Du that the US fired off? fine, maybe the US does not always target civilians, but they don't seem to care if they them
how could there be fundamental differences when one was born from the other?? ...
Umm...the same way there are fundamental differences between you and your mother.
the only difference is who the target is ... i'm sure no one was complaining about al qaeda when it was doing US bidding in afghanistan ...
Actually some people were complaining. Particularly those of us who didn't believe in funding proxy wars in foreign counties.
look at who the biggest arms dealer is in the world and tell me that the US doesn't sponsor terrorism ...
I didn't say that the US hasn't sponsored terrorism. It has. So has Canada, which means so have you. But that doesn't make the US or Canada terrorist organizations. The CIA's purpose is not to inflict terror and it's actions are not motivated by hate of another. The vast majority of their actions do not match the standard of terrorist organization.
Dude, it isn't uncomfortable at ALL..... I know that when the U.S. military goes to war that civillians will be killed. I take solace in knowing that it will be held to a minimum, becuase they are not directly targeted.
But you are so dead wrong in that groups do not have a doctrine of targeting civillains. Hezbollah fired rockets indiscriminately towards civillian populations that had ZERO military targets.... do you get that ZERO. That means they are INTENTIONALLy targeting civillians.
There is a clear difference. Why can you not acknowelge that?
but have to agree....Iran does sponsor terrorism as does Hezbollah...even the cluster bombs Isreal used were targeted at military positions. Additionally Hezbollah intentionally hid within their civilian population and used them as human martyrs......sacrificed....wee bit different than Isreal or the US...
Even after "shock and awe" you can still post something like that? even after all those rounds of Du that the US fired off? fine, maybe the US does not always target civilians, but they don't seem to care if they them
what a biiiiig difference, sure dude.
we do have value on human lives...and understand its in our best interest not to kill civilians...to think the US is okay with killing civilians is simply ignorant.
Dude, it isn't uncomfortable at ALL..... I know that when the U.S. military goes to war that civillians will be killed. I take solace in knowing that it will be held to a minimum, becuase they are not directly targeted.
But you are so dead wrong in that groups do not have a doctrine of targeting civillains. Hezbollah fired rockets indiscriminately towards civillian populations that had ZERO military targets.... do you get that ZERO. That means they are INTENTIONALLy targeting civillians.
There is a clear difference. Why can you not acknowelge that?
what do you think the use of deplete uranium is? ... what do you think the use of cluster bombs are? ... what do you think it means when you bomb water treatment factories and life supporting roads? ... what do you think it means when you contaminate the only supply of drinking water with radioactive waste?? ... what do you think 10 years of sanctions did in iraq where over thousands of children died because of no access to medicine?
you are fooling yourself if you think civilians aren't being targeted ... why do you think the US will not sign on to major international conventions and treaties dealing with these things? ... because they know they would be guilty ...
we can at least acknowledge the targeting of civilians by hezbollah (which no one here denies) but it is you who cannot the same actions by the US and Israel ... you won't acknowlege that the US created Al Qaeda which by your logic makes them a terrorist organization ... you won't answer that question ...
THAN BUSH BOY AND THE PEOPLE THAT SUPPORT HIM...PERIOD!
....none of the lame things past administrations have done compare to Iraq...none...even put together...so please don't compare past administrations to Bush. We did have some respect and even admiration before Bush...not now. Thank you very much.....
Phew..I feel better now. Thanks
If the US ever had respect, it was only due to them (america) being more efficient in it's corrupt way's.
America is just more openly flagrant these now, that's all.
we do have value on human lives...and understand its in our best interest not to kill civilians...to think the US is okay with killing civilians is simply ignorant.
Well history says otherwise, but of course when thousands of people die due to american policy, it's just an unfortunate occurance of someone elses fault, never her own.
I didn't say that the US hasn't sponsored terrorism. It has. So has Canada, which means so have you. But that doesn't make the US or Canada terrorist organizations. The CIA's purpose is not to inflict terror and it's actions are not motivated by hate of another. The vast majority of their actions do not match the standard of terrorist organization.
but that is how someone is definining terrorist states ... i have no problem acknowledging canada's role ... it is this double standard that allows gov'ts to act indiscriminately ...
its easy to say that terrorists are only interested in inflicting terror but no one wants to ask why?? ... at least we know why the US does it but no one is interested in truly finding out why hezbollah exists ..
but that is how someone is definining terrorist states ... i have no problem acknowledging canada's role ... it is this double standard that allows gov'ts to act indiscriminately ...
its easy to say that terrorists are only interested in inflicting terror but no one wants to ask why?? ... at least we know why the US does it but no one is interested in truly finding out why hezbollah exists ..
We know why Hezbollah exists ... Its not a difficult question to answer. Knowing this information does not magically transform the organization into one that I condone or respect.
but that is how someone is definining terrorist states ... i have no problem acknowledging canada's role ... it is this double standard that allows gov'ts to act indiscriminately ...
It can be, but usually it's not. Look, at some point you brought up Haditha and similar situations. Those are terrorist acts. But they're also the exception and they're also being punished.
its easy to say that terrorists are only interested in inflicting terror but no one wants to ask why?? ... at least we know why the US does it but no one is interested in truly finding out why hezbollah exists ..
Plenty of people are interested. Hezbollah exists because certain people decided to form a violent resistance organization to Israel's actions. And that resistance organization went on to conduct aggressive acts that are no longer linked to any defense against Israel. Al Qaeda has a similar history.
None of these organizations actively avoid aggressive acts of terror. The US and CIA typically do and while not always successful they usually are. Regardless, you're equating a rabid dog to an unruly dog. It's not the same dog kiddo.
Wow! A debate with two people who can't speak English. I am sure a lot would come about with this meeting. It would be like a few of the war hawks who are not in Iraq talking with the rest of us.
Well, I did get pretty mad at the dog this morning because she trashed one of my new shoes ... To her, I was probably looking like a bit of an extremist.
On the other hand, I haven't blown up any innocent people yet today.
If the US ever had respect, it was only due to them (america) being more efficient in it's corrupt way's.
America is just more openly flagrant these now, that's all.
shady deals....much different from Iraq though....in all facets. Too many for me to list...
Can see your no fan of the US.....thats okay and understandable...I'll still stick with it though.....well unless another Bush is elected....then I'll move to your country...
Comments
Based on the terror both regime have inflicted to civillians, yes, you can compare both, absolutly, intentional or not, it wouldn't stand a minute in a legal court.
"yeah i killed him, but it was not intentional" will also make you guilty of a crime.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
These organizations have terrorized. So has every organization that uses force to override will. Your local police force, at some point, has also terrorized.
However, a terrorist organization is an organization that is founded on principles of terror and hate with hate being their means and terror being their ends. To suggest that the CIA or that your local security force matches that description is to simplify the situation to a level of absurdity.
There are fundamental differences between Al Qaeda and the CIA. There are fundamental differences between Hezbollah and Mossad. That doesn't mean that one is evil and the other good. That would also simplify things to a level of absurdity.
But not murder, thank-you for proving the moral distinction between the two.
Why don't you contain your laughter long enough to explain why Iran is not a terrorist state?
Iran and Hezbollah are one in the same. Hezbollah deliberately aimed and fired thousands of rockets at civillians. On the other hand, the U.S. does not deliberately target civillians. Do you not see the moral difference there?
cause I will be moving to Canada.....
of course no one is gonna have a doctrine of targeting civilians but actions speak louder than words - it is an uncomfortable truth for many americans but there is no disputing the impact on civilians american actions have had ...
and as far as hezbollah - this war escalated with the kidnapping of 2 soldiers not the targeting of innocent civilians - it is very clear who was targeting civilians more in this past war ... the use of cluster bombs is the targeting of civilians and this is state sanctioned ...
how could there be fundamental differences when one was born from the other?? ... the only difference is who the target is ... i'm sure no one was complaining about al qaeda when it was doing US bidding in afghanistan ... look at who the biggest arms dealer is in the world and tell me that the US doesn't sponsor terrorism ...
yes, murder, there's different degree of murder, and i don't know every international law and their details, but killing civillians is a crime, intentional or not. If it's a time of war, it becomes war crimes, intentional or not. No moral distinction, if you target something you call legitimate and end up killing innocents, yes, it's a crime, a murder.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Dude, it isn't uncomfortable at ALL..... I know that when the U.S. military goes to war that civillians will be killed. I take solace in knowing that it will be held to a minimum, becuase they are not directly targeted.
But you are so dead wrong in that groups do not have a doctrine of targeting civillains. Hezbollah fired rockets indiscriminately towards civillian populations that had ZERO military targets.... do you get that ZERO. That means they are INTENTIONALLy targeting civillians.
There is a clear difference. Why can you not acknowelge that?
No my friend, Israel killing lebanese people is what created hezbollah.
THAN BUSH BOY AND THE PEOPLE THAT SUPPORT HIM...PERIOD!
....none of the lame things past administrations have done compare to Iraq...none...even put together...so please don't compare past administrations to Bush. We did have some respect and even admiration before Bush...not now. Thank you very much.....
Phew..I feel better now. Thanks
Iran are not more terrorist than the USA, or Russia, judge everyone on the same standard, there's no moral difference to me between what the USA have done in so many countries around the world over recent history, what Russia did in Chechnya or what Iran/Hezbollah did in Israel. If one is terrorist, then they're all terrorist.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Even after "shock and awe" you can still post something like that? even after all those rounds of Du that the US fired off? fine, maybe the US does not always target civilians, but they don't seem to care if they them
what a biiiiig difference, sure dude.
Umm...the same way there are fundamental differences between you and your mother.
Actually some people were complaining. Particularly those of us who didn't believe in funding proxy wars in foreign counties.
I didn't say that the US hasn't sponsored terrorism. It has. So has Canada, which means so have you. But that doesn't make the US or Canada terrorist organizations. The CIA's purpose is not to inflict terror and it's actions are not motivated by hate of another. The vast majority of their actions do not match the standard of terrorist organization.
but have to agree....Iran does sponsor terrorism as does Hezbollah...even the cluster bombs Isreal used were targeted at military positions. Additionally Hezbollah intentionally hid within their civilian population and used them as human martyrs......sacrificed....wee bit different than Isreal or the US...
we do have value on human lives...and understand its in our best interest not to kill civilians...to think the US is okay with killing civilians is simply ignorant.
what do you think the use of deplete uranium is? ... what do you think the use of cluster bombs are? ... what do you think it means when you bomb water treatment factories and life supporting roads? ... what do you think it means when you contaminate the only supply of drinking water with radioactive waste?? ... what do you think 10 years of sanctions did in iraq where over thousands of children died because of no access to medicine?
you are fooling yourself if you think civilians aren't being targeted ... why do you think the US will not sign on to major international conventions and treaties dealing with these things? ... because they know they would be guilty ...
we can at least acknowledge the targeting of civilians by hezbollah (which no one here denies) but it is you who cannot the same actions by the US and Israel ... you won't acknowlege that the US created Al Qaeda which by your logic makes them a terrorist organization ... you won't answer that question ...
If the US ever had respect, it was only due to them (america) being more efficient in it's corrupt way's.
America is just more openly flagrant these now, that's all.
Well history says otherwise, but of course when thousands of people die due to american policy, it's just an unfortunate occurance of someone elses fault, never her own.
but that is how someone is definining terrorist states ... i have no problem acknowledging canada's role ... it is this double standard that allows gov'ts to act indiscriminately ...
its easy to say that terrorists are only interested in inflicting terror but no one wants to ask why?? ... at least we know why the US does it but no one is interested in truly finding out why hezbollah exists ..
Right, because in Iran, censorship never happens, its such a free society.
How do you make that eye-rolling face thingy?
and to add to that, yes america does value human life, they value the life of an american ahead of the life of anyone else.
We know why Hezbollah exists ... Its not a difficult question to answer. Knowing this information does not magically transform the organization into one that I condone or respect.
why not negotiate?
We're terrorists too.
There is noting to lose in negotiating.. and perhaps something to gain
doing nothing, and your sure to get nothing
It can be, but usually it's not. Look, at some point you brought up Haditha and similar situations. Those are terrorist acts. But they're also the exception and they're also being punished.
Plenty of people are interested. Hezbollah exists because certain people decided to form a violent resistance organization to Israel's actions. And that resistance organization went on to conduct aggressive acts that are no longer linked to any defense against Israel. Al Qaeda has a similar history.
None of these organizations actively avoid aggressive acts of terror. The US and CIA typically do and while not always successful they usually are. Regardless, you're equating a rabid dog to an unruly dog. It's not the same dog kiddo.
i forgot why i stopped responding to your posts ... now, i know why ...
Well, I did get pretty mad at the dog this morning because she trashed one of my new shoes ... To her, I was probably looking like a bit of an extremist.
On the other hand, I haven't blown up any innocent people yet today.
shady deals....much different from Iraq though....in all facets. Too many for me to list...
Can see your no fan of the US.....thats okay and understandable...I'll still stick with it though.....well unless another Bush is elected....then I'll move to your country...